Could a Seer take down a shardbearer?

[Natanaj he/him]

lets say that neither has any prep time, but both are masters at fighting, and in prime physical condition. The shardbearer has both blade and plate, and the Seer has plenty of atium, as well as a spear, a sidesword, and some atium.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Probably not. He would be very buissy dodging the Shardblade and given the physical advantage the Shardbearer has, I doubt the Seer could get a solid enough hit in to harm the Plate.

 

The only chance the misting would have to win is stabbing the Shardbearer into his visor, which isn´t impossible but probably wouldn´t work on a master level fighter that only has to turn his head away at the right moment.

 

Naturally, burning Atium should make sure that the Seer can dogde all incoming attacks but even Atium can´t create oppurtunities to attack. So, unless the Seer gets very lucky, my money is on whoever´s resources last longer.

[Oudeis he/him]

I'm giving this one to the Seer. We see that Yomen, with literally no combat training, is easily able to not only dodge both Vin and Elend, both martially trained, but actually attack and harm a pewter-enhanced Elend.

 

Remember, Kaladin, using either a power not as great as Atium, or no power at all, was able to throw a knife so that it just barely didn't kill someone, and then stab with a spearhead and achieve it. If the Shardbearer couldn't hit/dodge Kaladin, I think someone with atium would have a walk in the park.

 

There's a WoB I cannot find which says something about how someone burning atium is close to the pinnacle of martial capabilities that we've seen.

[Pathfinder]

I would like to also point out that a group of atium mistings, trained, but otherwise just ordinary joes, took on an army of koloss that outnumbered them. True many died, but I think the fact alone that they held their own against creatures stronger, more durable, faster, and more numerous speaks volumes. In my opinion I am also not sure why so many people see atium as purely defensive. If you can see every action your opponent will make in reaction to your action, that will not only allow me to AVOID their attacks, but plan and succeed on MINE. 

[Robot Aztec]

can he chug aitum and win in 10 hearbeats? yes i think so chuck sword in helmet hole and win

[Edgedancer he/him]

I would like to also point out that a group of atium mistings, trained, but otherwise just ordinary joes, took on an army of koloss that outnumbered them. True many died, but I think the fact alone that they held their own against creatures stronger, more durable, faster, and more numerous speaks volumes. In my opinion I am also not sure why so many people see atium as purely defensive. If you can see every action your opponent will make in reaction to your action, that will not only allow me to AVOID their attacks, but plan and succeed on MINE. 

A Shardbearer is superior to a koloss in about every way but size and most of all koloss are clumsy, giving the Seer more than enough opportunity to counterattck. Given the pitch I would assume someone on the level of Adolin or Dalinar, if not better. Someone like that isn´t going to overextend and leave an opening, so there´s no way the Seer could get close enough to deliver his finishing hit in the first place.

The ability to use every mistake your opponent might make is kind of useless, if there aren´t going to be any mistakes.

 

can he chug aitum and win in 10 hearbeats? yes i think so chuck sword in helmet hole and win

All the Shardbearer would have to do to block is raise an arm, which sounds rather easy for the Shardbearer.

[Pathfinder]

A Shardbearer is superior to a koloss in about every way but size and most of all koloss are clumsy, giving the Seer more than enough opportunity to counterattck. Given the pitch I would assume someone on the level of Adolin or Dalinar, if not better. Someone like that isn´t going to overextend and leave an opening, so there´s no way the Seer could get close enough to deliver his finishing hit in the first place.

The ability to use every mistake your opponent might make is kind of useless, if there aren´t going to be any mistakes.

 

All the Shardbearer would have to do to block is raise an arm, which sounds rather easy for the Shardbearer.

Has there been defined strength and speed comparisons made between the two to confirm this? I never referred to mistakes. If I know you are going for an overhand swing, then I know you will be leaving your midsection completely open. I will know what your reaction will be once you realize I am going for your midsection, and compensate. It has been shown normal people have fought shardbearers and won, so your speed is not so greatly enhanced that I cannot possibly account for it. By your definition, when I burn atium, ALL you make is mistakes, because I will be able to do the exact move that goes around yours, or attack the exact place you are unable to defend against. 

 

taking the example given. the moment i think to throw my sword at your face, I will see the shadow of you raising your arm to block it, so I will know your vision for that time will be compromised, and can close the distance, as well as know exactly how the sword will deflect off of you, to catch it in midair after it bounces off, and strike the one place you will not be able to reach in time, because I know already know you wont be able to reach it in time,because I already saw the shadow move to everywhere I thought to hit. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Oudeis he/him]

You're woefully underestimating Atium, and woefully overestimating skill. Just "wanting" to block everything doesn't mean you can; if that were the case, no one would ever land a blow on Adolin anywhere on his armor. They do. He cannot block everything.

 

Your presumption is that this combat is the Shardbearer's to lose. That a theoretical scenario where you attack without ever leaving even the smallest opening is a plausible scenario. It isn't. In order to attack, you have to commit. In doing so, you leave yourself open, however slightly.

 

Dodge the first swing of the Shardblade. They're light, but a Bearer cannot simply have his sword be in every position at once. Let your dodge take you in past his guard. Weave just barely to the side to avoid his off-hand punch. Shove the speartip through the slot.

 

Your presumption is that a Shardbearer has the capacity to make it so that there is literally no move to make. Adolin and Dalinar can protect their eyeslit because they can react to what the other person does; if every feint is perfect, if every dodge is exact, there's nothing for a Shardbearer to react to. Your understanding of the fundamentals of melee combat is flawed.

 

I again refer to the Kaladin/Shardbearer match. A trained Shardbearer fighting someone with, at most, nominal magic ability. I will grant you that Adolin or Dalinar are better trained than the Shardbearer was... but by the rules of the contest, if we're assuming a Shardbearer as well-trained as Adolin, then we assume an equal level of skill for our Seer. If the Shardbearer could not defend himself from a barely-if-at-all augmented spearman, then this is a slam-dunk. The Seer would win easily every time.

[Newan he/him]

This doesn't apply directly to the current fight, but it does show how powerful atium is.  

 

My friend asked Brandon who would win in a fight: Ironeyes or Szeth.  Brandon said that Marsh would win because he has been flaring atium for years, and "it's hard to beat someone who can see the future"

Edited November 10, 2014 by Newan

[Edgedancer he/him]

I should add that I´m working on the assumption that the Shardbearer act completly defensive only reacting/attacking to keep the Seer away from him. Pretty much in the same way Vin acted against Zane. Should the Shardbearer ever press the attack, then yes, the Seer should be able to slip in and deliver the killing blow.

[Pathfinder]

I should add that I´m working on the assumption that the Shardbearer act completly defensive only reacting/attacking to keep the Seer away from him. Pretty much in the same way Vin acted against Zane. Should the Shardbearer ever press the attack, then yes, the Seer should be able to slip in and deliver the killing blow.

If shardplate is continuously struck at the same location, it will shatter. Playing purely defensive will not win the day either. 

[Edgedancer he/him]

If shardplate is continuously struck at the same location, it will shatter. Playing purely defensive will not win the day either. 

True but going by the Vin Zane fight Atium can´t properly predict actions taken as a reaction to the Seer changing the future, which would put them at the disadvantage if they initiate the attack. Coupled with some unblockable incredibly dangerous sweeps should allow to keep some  distance between the combatants for some while.

From there it´s what happens first, the few hits causing the stormlight to leak out or the Atium burning out.

[Pathfinder]

True but going by the Vin Zane fight Atium can´t properly predict actions taken as a reaction to the Seer changing the future, which would put them at the disadvantage if they initiate the attack. Coupled with some unblockable incredibly dangerous sweeps should allow to keep some  distance between the combatants for some while.

From there it´s what happens first, the few hits causing the stormlight to leak out or the Atium burning out.

After pulling up the scene, Vin did not win because she fought defensively. She won because she fought on instinct. She stopped "thinking" before she acted. She focused on reading Zane and how he would react to what she would start to do to figure out what he was going to do. In a way becoming her own atium. Even then she only killed Zane through a double check mate, they both stabbed each other, just hers was the fatal one. True the helm of a shardbearer becomes transparent, but it is still has a slight distortion, which is why the eye holes are necessary. I think the helm would hamper the shardbearer from being able to repeat what Vin did. 

 

to determine which would run out, we would need the OP to define what he or she means by "would have plenty of atium"

 

edit: to clarify, in the scene zane still sees the atium shadows, but she learns to instinctively when she starts to take an action, see a twitch of his muscle, causes her to realize how he is possibly reacting to what action he sees her atium shadow take, and then she changes that action based on that, ultimately leading to him stabbing her in the shoulder, and him in the throat. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Unless the Shardbearer learned a trick or two from Vin, I think the Seer is going to win. Atium not only shows the coming moves of the opponent, it also gives the Seer mental capacity and agility to respond on it. A close Stormlight analogy of Atium might be the way Kaladin described fighting with two shardbearers on stormlight in 1 vs 4 shardbearers duel.

Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly—that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.

This is eerily similar to Atium. I guess a Seer fighting a Surgebinder using only Stormlight might be harder to call.

Edited for spelling

Edited November 11, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Oudeis he/him]

From context it seems much more like Spook's trick with tin savantism than atium.

[Pathfinder]

From context it seems much more like Spook's trick with tin savantism than atium.

I just find it ironic that your comment pops up just when your rep level becomes Seer lol. 

[Oudeis he/him]

I know, I first came down on the side of the Seer and then my Rep bumped up, and I was legitimately concerned that people would accuse me of supporting this position just because of that fact.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Congrats on becoming a Seer. Burning atium feels pretty awesome, no? .

From context it seems much more like Spook's trick with tin savantism than atium.

Are you referring to the theory that Kaladin was sensing his opponent's movements by subtle changes in Atmospheric pressure via his Adhesion surge? If so, I think we should check out if other Orders cannot do the same. And we haven't seen any other Radiant in combat yet.

[Oudeis he/him]

Actually I think this is simply his passive ability, the way Jasnah has geolocation and Shallan takes Memories. There's strong evidence to suggest Sylphrena has some sort of connection to windspren, and she has a tendency to dance around him as he fights. Maybe she just senses the movement of air around him and feeds him the information via the bond. I grant this is somewhat speculative, but we do know that he fights with beyond-natural skill, and that the air warps around him as he does.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

@Outis. This discussion regarding passive abilities has been discussed elsewhere but I didn't get involved. Would you mind humoring me for a bit?

This is probably off-topic. Shallan doesn't need Stormlight to take memories, so why would Kaladin demonstrate such precognition powers only while taking Stormlight. Mind you I am not talking just about fast reflexes as Kaladin showed during fight with the shardbearer in WoK. When he fights with the Parshendi in WoK or Szeth in WoR, he can almost read the moves before they come. And all those times he was on Stormlight. Just contrast this with his fight with Zehel and Adolin in practice arena where he did not draw Stormlight and was unable to predict their moves.

[Oudeis he/him]

Currently re-reading Words of Radiance, will keep my eyes out for these scenes and more specific evidence one way or another. I remember the first time I read that scene I cringed at how much handwavium was being used to allow Kaladin to blatantly Invest in front of hundreds of people and yet somehow not get caught, and it may have distracted me from pertinent details.

 

From my reading of Way of Kings, there is a ton of evidence of Kaladin having supernatural combat skill, in circumstances where it's unlikely or impossible that he could have drawn in Stormlight. You raise a good point in how it's affected by Stormlight.

 

Perhaps all passives can be boosted with Stormlight, we've just only seen Kaladin's? Maybe with Stormlight, Shallan could take even better memories. Maybe Jasnah, with Stormlight, is able to sense more detailed information with her geolocation.

 

In an attempt to keep this thread on-topic, and because it will be some days before I get to the pertinent scenes, I'm gonna drop this discussion for now so we can get back to the combat (unless we all agree the Seer wins?). When I get that far, perhaps I'll make/find a thread in the Stormlight forum and we can discuss it when I have all the facts.

[Pathfinder]

I am not proficient enough with this forum to do searches, but yes there was posts about each of the radiants we see getting an added "ability" just because. Shallan has her memory and Jasnah has her location as stated. Kaladin is especially good in combat. There is WoB on that, though as I said I have no idea how to locate that on this forum. 

 

edit: and this ability does not require the radiant to be using stormlight. it just is. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by Pathfinder