Kaladins gonna fall in love with veil(spoilers)

[Trip]

don't really want to see a love triangle

 

I agree. pls no YA love triangle.

 

Don't pander to the masses Sanderson my man :'(

Edited November 13, 2014 by Trip

[Guest]

I don't think Shallan will follow Dalinar, unless she feels like it. She will think that they want to trap her like her father did. To me she seems paranoid about this (whenever somebody cares for her, tries to protect her or tell her what to do, even if they are right about it), which is understandable given her past. Right now she tries very hard to prove to the world (and herself) that she doesn't need anyone to protect/help/guide her. She knows better than anyone (when she speaks during the meeting before the battle or at the very end when she openly disapproves of Dalinar allowing Kaladin to go to Heartstone), so she won't listen to anyone unless it serves her own interests. That is one thing that I currently dislike about her, but I hope that in the next books she will come to her senses and admit that everyone, even her, can't do everything alone

 

I think it is great Shallan won't let herself become Dalinar's puppet. He already have so much influence I think it is wise for him to face some opposition. We have seen Dalinar being very misguided in his decision making (cough Sadeas cough). Shallan strong willed opinions may help bring out some balance in the Radiants.

 

 

 

While I agree with this idea, I'm not so much convinced that Adolin will go on suicide mission to redeem himself. It may be so or it may be that he throws his life away to achieve something great and prove that he's still useful (as he will doubt himself, being the only non-Radiant in the family). Or it may be both those reasons at once...

 

Well, suicide mission means him undertaking some very dangerous task to gain some huge advantage. Something he would think twice about doing had he been himself, but considering the inner turmoil he'll put himself into, he could convinced himself it is up to him to do it. His motivations would be redeeming himself, protecting his loved ones, proving he is still worth something while thinking he is expendable.

 

 

But I don't want Radiants to come to his rescue - I want Renarin to save his brother from deadly wound with the use of Progression while Kaladin (or even anyone else) fights the danger   Later Adolin is taken to his father, who had been worried sick and is completely elated to see his son alive.

 

Or Adolin may save himself by reviving his Blade, which I also want to see. But he still later may need Renarin to save his life (as in Adolin won the fight but he's too wounded to survive).

 

Radiants come to help, but they are not quick enough. Whatever Adolin tried to do, he pull through but to the expense of his life. He is brought back near dead to the city where the whole family sits there watching him die (I am feeling morbid today ). That is when all hopes have been lost that Renarin finally figures it out and saves his brother. I do want to see Dalinar fret a little....

 

Anyway, I do want Renarin to use Progression on his brother and I am quite convinced it will happened.

 

Reviving the Blade is for later. First, he's got to fall and I think lowest low will be when he thinks he has lost all of those he loves and goes on to sacrifice himself for something he believes matters.

[Pathfinder]

Actually the big thing I want to see with Renarian, is to see him use his precognition from his point of view. Progression we've seen Lift do, I want to see what Renarian sees that made him freak out so much at the end of book 2. That and see him interact with his spren lol

[Guest]

Actually the big thing I want to see with Renarian, is to see him use his precognition from his point of view. Progression we've seen Lift do, I want to see what Renarian sees that made him freak out so much at the end of book 2. That and see him interact with his spren lol

 

But Progression would enable him to directly aid those he loves... Since Dalinar now has stormlight to heal himself, the most logical candidate is Adolin. I'd love to see Renarin do just that. He has been trying for so long to be helpful and failed miserably, how great would it be if he could save the life on one of the most important individual in his life?

 

Anyway, I think we are going to see Renarin use both his surges to save the say in the next book. I think we may see Renarin go up while Adolin goes down, but in the end, little Renarin will save his brother as brotherly love is the strongest.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I think it is great Shallan won't let herself become Dalinar's puppet. He already have so much influence I think it is wise for him to face some opposition. We have seen Dalinar being very misguided in his decision making (cough Sadeas cough). Shallan strong willed opinions may help bring out some balance in the Radiants.

I see your point but in my eyes Shallan doesn't seem to be simply strong willed so nobody can manipulate her. She's blatantly defiant, wanting her freedom so much that she doesn't consider that somebody may be right (Adolin wanted to protect her - she didn't even consider that he may be right, she saw him as trying to oppress her). I see her as wanting to do everything herself, not necessarily looking at what others could do to help her or even do better (as when she feared that Navani will take her project from her - she wanted to be completely in control of everything). I can't help but currently perceive Shallan as stuck-up and overconfident not strong-willed. I liked her way more in WoK

 

By now I think Dalinar learned to listen to the council of the others (exactly because of Sadeas). Kaladin is known to openly speak his mind to Dalinar, and Dalinar is likely to take his words into consideration. Same for Adolin (at least before the truth about Sadeas' murder comes out). Especially in Adolin's case. It's not like everyone will take Dalinar's words without questioning them.

 

 

But Progression would enable him to directly aid those he loves... Since Dalinar now has stormlight to heal himself, the most logical candidate is Adolin. I'd love to see Renarin do just that. He has been trying for so long to be helpful and failed miserably, how great would it be if he could save the life on one of the most important individual in his life?

 

Anyway, I think we are going to see Renarin use both his surges to save the say in the next book. I think we may see Renarin go up while Adolin goes down, but in the end, little Renarin will save his brother as brotherly love is the strongest.

Agreed. Totally agreed. Renarin's biggest chance to shine is to finally succed at what he screwed up in the past two books - saving his family.

[Pathfinder]

But Progression would enable him to directly aid those he loves... Since Dalinar now has stormlight to heal himself, the most logical candidate is Adolin. I'd love to see Renarin do just that. He has been trying for so long to be helpful and failed miserably, how great would it be if he could save the life on one of the most important individual in his life?

 

Anyway, I think we are going to see Renarin use both his surges to save the say in the next book. I think we may see Renarin go up while Adolin goes down, but in the end, little Renarin will save his brother as brotherly love is the strongest.

I understand you are talking from a narrative perspective, while I am talking from an ability perspective of my own opinion. I am not saying whether or not we will see it, just I would like to see it to further understand the powers of radiants. Just like I want Adolin to be a dustbringer so I can see abrasion in action already lol

[Guest]

I see your point but in my eyes Shallan doesn't seem to be simply strong willed so nobody can manipulate her. She's blatantly defiant, wanting her freedom so much that she doesn't consider that somebody may be right (Adolin wanted to protect her - she didn't even consider that he may be right, she saw him as trying to oppress her). I see her as wanting to do everything herself, not necessarily looking at what others could do to help her or even do better (as when she feared that Navani will take her project from her - she wanted to be completely in control of everything). I can't help but currently perceive Shallan as stuck-up and overconfident not strong-willed. I liked her way more in WoK

 

That is an interesting take on Shallan. It is true she has yet to accept she may be wrong about something and I had forgotten about her being afraid of Navani stealing her research. It does mirror Kaladin's fears the lighteyes would steal his surgebinding, somehow. As for her overconfidence, I tend to see it as a reflection of her immaturity. Much like Kaladin, she has to learn to trust other people. She trusted Jasnah, but Jasnah died. She does not trust the Kohlins, but she likes Adolin even though she rebutted at his attempt to protect her. She has yet to realize having someone that cares does not equal being locked up in a glass tower.

 

Actually, I like her better in WoR. In WoK, she seems like she could never make out her mind and she lacked the drive we have seen her express in WoR. I appreciate how she took matters into her own hands and what is to say of how she took control of her first date with Adolin. She totally, completely unsettled her and it is clear she is holding the reins in this relationship. Strange Adolin responded so well to that.

 

 

I understand you are talking from a narrative perspective, while I am talking from an ability perspective of my own opinion. I am not saying whether or not we will see it, just I would like to see it to further understand the powers of radiants. Just like I want Adolin to be a dustbringer so I can see abrasion in action already lol

 

I see your point. However, Renarin has the surge of Illumination and Progression, both surges we have already seen. Illumination has quite been the focus of WoR, so I guess I would like to see more Progression. We have seen healing performed, but we do not know the mechanic yet. Can everything be healed or just the wounds? If someone loses a lot of blood, can Progression make new blood? Can Progression heal sickness and/or poisoning? And what of the injured? Are there any consequences to being healed this way much like in WoT where one would be weaken by it?

 

Adolin and abrasion is the new dynamic duo. He would become such a awesome fighter with it!

[Pathfinder]

I see your point. However, Renarin has the surge of Illumination and Progression, both surges we have already seen. Illumination has quite been the focus of WoR, so I guess I would like to see more Progression. We have seen healing performed, but we do not know the mechanic yet. Can everything be healed or just the wounds? If someone loses a lot of blood, can Progression make new blood? Can Progression heal sickness and/or poisoning? And what of the injured? Are there any consequences to being healed this way much like in WoT where one would be weaken by it?

 

Adolin and abrasion is the new dynamic duo. He would become such a awesome fighter with it!

Where have we seen illumination from the perspective of the character? I miss something? I do not consider Dalinar's visions to be illumiination as bondsmiths do not have that surge. True we saw Renarian freak out, but I want to be in his head as he does it. See how it manifests for him. Neither of us is right or wrong, you just want to see one thing, I want to see another lol. 

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Where have we seen illumination from the perspective of the character? I miss something? I do not consider Dalinar's visions to be illumiination as bondsmiths do not have that surge. True we saw Renarian freak out, but I want to be in his head as he does it. See how it manifests for him. Neither of us is right or wrong, you just want to see one thing, I want to see another lol. 

Yes we did. Shallan's Lightweaving is Illumination only named differently. So yeah, we have seen much of it.

 

 

I see your point. However, Renarin has the surge of Illumination and Progression, both surges we have already seen. Illumination has quite been the focus of WoR, so I guess I would like to see more Progression. We have seen healing performed, but we do not know the mechanic yet. Can everything be healed or just the wounds? If someone loses a lot of blood, can Progression make new blood? Can Progression heal sickness and/or poisoning? And what of the injured? Are there any consequences to being healed this way much like in WoT where one would be weaken by it?

 

Adolin and abrasion is the new dynamic duo. He would become such a awesome fighter with it!

I'm interested in Progression myself.  In Dalinar vision he saw that the Radiant made his wounded leg grow new skin, muscles etc. instead of repairing damaged ones. We know that Lift healed Gawx, but little is known how exactly.And she made plants grow - that seems rather simple. I wonder what Renarin's reaction would be if he accidentially grew some moss Also, does Progression heal Shardblade wounds? I think it does. So Renarin can struggle to figure out just how to do this and help Hobber and other members of Bridge 4 wounded by Szeth at the end of WoR. With Lift we have seen that bringing somebody back to life takes so much stormlight that it left her completely powerless. Is it only in Lift's case since she can metabolize food into stormlight? Or does such use of Progression simply drain energy from the user along with stormlight?

 

Abrasion we have seen quite well with Lift, but only in rather non-combat situations. Adolin can make it look more kickass sliding around battlefield. I wonder also if Abrasion allows the user to run over water? That would be cool. But I think I'd like to see also Adolin trying to somehow learn to use this ability and being unable to walk properly constantly slipping on his feet Or dropping things :ph34r:

 

 

That is an interesting take on Shallan. It is true she has yet to accept she may be wrong about something and I had forgotten about her being afraid of Navani stealing her research. It does mirror Kaladin's fears the lighteyes would steal his surgebinding, somehow. As for her overconfidence, I tend to see it as a reflection of her immaturity. Much like Kaladin, she has to learn to trust other people. She trusted Jasnah, but Jasnah died. She does not trust the Kohlins, but she likes Adolin even though she rebutted at his attempt to protect her. She has yet to realize having someone that cares does not equal being locked up in a glass tower.

 

Actually, I like her better in WoR. In WoK, she seems like she could never make out her mind and she lacked the drive we have seen her express in WoR. I appreciate how she took matters into her own hands and what is to say of how she took control of her first date with Adolin. She totally, completely unsettled her and it is clear she is holding the reins in this relationship. Strange Adolin responded so well to that.

Well, that's my opinion on her and I'm aware it's not very popular I'm not saying she's a bad character, only one that currently annoys me way too much, but I see potential to improve in her - and then maybe I'll actually like her.

 

In WoK I was ok with her - not a character I particularly liked but not one I disliked either. Same at the beginning of WoR. But later? She became so annoying that I barely could stand her. I understand her character growth, how she needed to become who she is, but I can't help but see it like everything goes so smoothly for her, with barely any effort (it's written how she struggled to achieve this, but I just don't get the feeling of her struggling, everything seems to come to her just like that). She always succeeds with little to none complications. Kaladin struggled and I could feel it while reading. He failed from time to time - whether due to his inexperience, circumstances, simple mistake or his own stupidity (yes, I'm speaking of the boon failure now). Shallan didn't fail or didn't even come close to failing. In my eyes it almost borders on "protagonist succeeding for the mere sake of being protagonist". Almost, but not exactly, that's why I still think I can like her in the future. The problem with Shallan now is that she went from extreme to extreme - from unsure, scared girl in WoK to confident, always right, important woman in WoR. Where is the middle? I think I missed it somewhere... Right now I tend to see her as a character slowly walking in the direction of Mary-Sue.

 

But then again, that's just my personal opinion.

[Guest]

Where have we seen illumination from the perspective of the character? I miss something? I do not consider Dalinar's visions to be illumiination as bondsmiths do not have that surge. True we saw Renarian freak out, but I want to be in his head as he does it. See how it manifests for him. Neither of us is right or wrong, you just want to see one thing, I want to see another lol. 

 

Yep. Shallan has been using  Illumination all through WoR, so I'd say we are now quite familiar with this surge. However, it is true we have not seen it being applied to Renarin. I didn't get we were arguing... Wanting to see different things is not an argument, but an exchange of perspective

 

 

Yes we did. Shallan's Lightweaving is Illumination only named differently. So yeah, we have seen much of it.

 

 

I'm interested in Progression myself.  In Dalinar vision he saw that the Radiant made his wounded leg grow new skin, muscles etc. instead of repairing damaged ones. We know that Lift healed Gawx, but little is known how exactly.And she made plants grow - that seems rather simple. I wonder what Renarin's reaction would be if he accidentially grew some moss Also, does Progression heal Shardblade wounds? I think it does. So Renarin can struggle to figure out just how to do this and help Hobber and other members of Bridge 4 wounded by Szeth at the end of WoR. With Lift we have seen that bringing somebody back to life takes so much stormlight that it left her completely powerless. Is it only in Lift's case since she can metabolize food into stormlight? Or does such use of Progression simply drain energy from the user along with stormlight?

 

Abrasion we have seen quite well with Lift, but only in rather non-combat situations. Adolin can make it look more kickass sliding around battlefield. I wonder also if Abrasion allows the user to run over water? That would be cool. But I think I'd like to see also Adolin trying to somehow learn to use this ability and being unable to walk properly constantly slipping on his feet Or dropping things :ph34r:

 

 

Well, that's my opinion on her and I'm aware it's not very popular I'm not saying she's a bad character, only one that currently annoys me way too much, but I see potential to improve in her - and then maybe I'll actually like her.

 

In WoK I was ok with her - not a character I particularly liked but not one I disliked either. Same at the beginning of WoR. But later? She became so annoying that I barely could stand her. I understand her character growth, how she needed to become who she is, but I can't help but see it like everything goes so smoothly for her, with barely any effort (it's written how she struggled to achieve this, but I just don't get the feeling of her struggling, everything seems to come to her just like that). She always succeeds with little to none complications. Kaladin struggled and I could feel it while reading. He failed from time to time - whether due to his inexperience, circumstances, simple mistake or his own stupidity (yes, I'm speaking of the boon failure now). Shallan didn't fail or didn't even come close to failing. In my eyes it almost borders on "protagonist succeeding for the mere sake of being protagonist". Almost, but not exactly, that's why I still think I can like her in the future. The problem with Shallan now is that she went from extreme to extreme - from unsure, scared girl in WoK to confident, always right, important woman in WoR. Where is the middle? I think I missed it somewhere... Right now I tend to see her as a character slowly walking in the direction of Mary-Sue.

 

But then again, that's just my personal opinion.

 

The way you feel about Shallan is the way I currently feel about Kaladin... Kaladin never seems to fail either even if he does meet a few bumps along the road. He always come up on top in most fights, he always ends up saving the day and everyone is in awe of him, which is quite unnerving. Dalinar for instance accepts Kaladin insubordinate attitude, includes him into his personal counsel while he knows next to nothing about him. He blatantly and blindly entrusts him with beyond expectation responsibilities without the slightest prove he is up to the task. There is a sharp clivage here in how easily he gives control to Kaladin while we see how closely he tutored Adolin in WoK and how easily he falls back to treat him as a child. Renarin is another case of individual who falls into admiration mode upon meeting Kaladin, being as bold as to ask to join Bridge 4.

 

There is also the fact Kaladin masters his surges apparently effortlessly. Shallan, at least, has the merit to struggle with Transformation and we know she has not truly mastered Illumination yet.  I also hated how the focus on the last fight was stolen from the Adolin/Dalinar duo to go to Kaladin as he, again effortlessly, slay Szeth whereas Adolin gave it everything he's got. Kaladin still come up as the hero, the same could be said of Shallan as she unlocks the Oathgate, but little is said on the men who fought a horrible battle out there.

 

Shallan being a Mary-Sue is a subject I have seen from time to time.... I agree with you there is a tendency...

[Kyats Rani she/her]

The way you feel about Shallan is the way I currently feel about Kaladin... Kaladin never seems to fail either even if he does meet a few bumps along the road. He always come up on top in most fights, he always ends up saving the day and everyone is in awe of him, which is quite unnerving. Dalinar for instance accepts Kaladin insubordinate attitude, includes him into his personal counsel while he knows next to nothing about him. He blatantly and blindly entrusts him with beyond expectation responsibilities without the slightest prove he is up to the task. There is a sharp clivage here in how easily he gives control to Kaladin while we see how closely he tutored Adolin in WoK and how easily he falls back to treat him as a child. Renarin is another case of individual who falls into admiration mode upon meeting Kaladin, being as bold as to ask to join Bridge 4.

 

There is also the fact Kaladin masters his surges apparently effortlessly. Shallan, at least, has the merit to struggle with Transformation and we know she has not truly mastered Illumination yet.  I also hated how the focus on the last fight was stolen from the Adolin/Dalinar duo to go to Kaladin as he, again effortlessly, slay Szeth whereas Adolin gave it everything he's got. Kaladin still come up as the hero, the same could be said of Shallan as she unlocks the Oathgate, but little is said on the men who fought a horrible battle out there.

 

Shallan being a Mary-Sue is a subject I have seen from time to time.... I agree with you there is a tendency...

 

Yeah, you are right about it. But still, Kaladin at least has those bumps along the way while I didn't see any for Shallan. Dalinar's trust and patience with Kaladin is rather overdone, true. But then again, Dalinar also put the fate of the whole army in Shallan's hands without hesitation. I'm not trying to say that it's fair that Dalinar treated Kaladin like that, I'm only pointing out that Dalinar has a strange tendency to do this As for the contrast between how he treated Kaladin and Adolin - I may be mistaken, but basing on me and some of my friends (and our parents of course) I think that parents generally expect more from their children than from other people. Dalinar wants to prepare his son for the job the best as he can. He saw what Kaladin did and assumed that he's already prepared (I'm not saying it's right, I think he actually wasn't, but that's how Dalinar apparently saw this...). So in this case I'd put the problem on Dalinar not on the creation of other characters...

 

I can't possibly disagree that in the end Kaladin always ended up saving the day. He did. But never truly on his own. I'm not even talking about Syl here. But let's see... The Tower? He did save the day. But would he manage to do this on his own, without the help of Bridge 4? If they didn't hold the bridge while he was lying there, exhausted? If Teft didn't take command over the others when Kaladin couldn't? If Lopen didn't keep tossing him unbroken spears? If Moash didn't lead few others to fight by his side? True, Kaladin trained them. But they achieved something from this training thanks to their own determination. If they didn't help him, he would fail. The first time Szeth attacked? Ok, Adolin didn't manage to do much, but he tried so he helped at least by keeping Szeth's attention on himself for some time. Then there's Dalinar and his lastclap. If not for this, Kaladin would fail miserably anyway. And he didn't even defeat Szeth in the end. Szeth ran away not because he was scared of Kaladin personally, but because he was scared of what it could mean for the world. The four on one duel? Kaladin would never win this on his own. The victory was possible only because he and Adolin worked together. And because Renarin for some time held attention of one opponent and because Shallan sent Pattern to help. The last battle with Szeth? Kaladin wouldn't even have the chance to fight Szeth if not for Adolin, Dalinar, Roion and men of Bridge 4. If they didn't put up the fight as they did, Kaladin would come too late. Especially Adolin. He was the first to spot Szeth (and I swear it must've had something to do with that instinct of his) and engage him to prevent him from attacking Dalinar. He would do much better if not for the fact he was already tired and battered after fighting Eshonai. Storms, Kaladin wouldn't even achieve anything while protecting Elhokar if Moash didn't hesitate or try to keep Graves away! Kaladin always ended up saving the day, but never on his own. Somebody always helped him one way or another, otherwise he would fail. He's not as good as he seems. Average everyday reader wouldn't see this, but I'm sure that anybody who tries to look deeper than the surface would.

 

The admiration mode... I can totally understand why it was the case among Bridge 4. They were through Damnation itself and he showed them that they can fight their way out of this. He lead them in this, he trained them. He survived the Highstorm. They have reasons to admire him. But at least some still see him as a man not a hero (Rock for sure, Sigzil, Teft an Lopen too, mostly). Or at least not only a hero, but a man as well. As for Renarin... I never perceived him as one who had fallen into admiration mode. True, he admired Kaladin but not that much. He wanted to be useful and to be a son his father wanted him to be. To be a soldier. We know that Adolin for a time served in a spearmen unit to train. I think Renarin wanted to do the same and thought Bridge 4 to be the safest option. Or maybe Glys convinced him somehow...

 

As for effortlessly mastering surges... Yes, he didn't struggle with anything so much as Shallan with Soulcasting. But he trained his powers the same as Shallan trained Illumination. He had problems with gravity. He tried many times (even as early as WoK I think) but kept failing until he finally got a grasp of it after the first fight with Szeth. Then he put effort into mastering it. True, he did that in one night (maybe even not a whole one), but it didn't come to him at a snap of fingers. At I'm not completely sure if he already mastered it too. By now he can do what Szeth could and then some more. But we don't know if there isn't something more to his surges. I hope there is, because by now adhesion/pressure seems rather lame. I'm waiting for force pushes I mean, he still has two more oaths. If there's nothing more for him to learn then it's rather boring... But overall yeah, by now it seems he had it somewhat easier than Shallan (to an extent because he saw Szeth using those powers too...).

 

On the matter of Kaladin taking spotlight in the end... True, he did. At least in the eyes of an average leader. Because I think that we all know that it's not so simple. I have already explained how Kaladin would do nothing if the others didn't put up a fight. Adolin did whatever he could, but he was already wounded and beaten down after Eshonai. And he still did well. Nobody can really deny that. In my opinion he did even more while fighting Szeth than Dalinar. Roion was a hero for a few seconds when he attacked Szeth. If he didn't all would be lost. Adolin's greatest achievement in the last battle was his duel with Eshonai. It goes beyond any doubt. I also believe that to a great extent the heroes of this battle were Drehy and Skar, bravely charging into battle by Adolin's side and saving him at the chasm. And also other members of Bridge 4, those who fought against Szeth. Some of them died, some were crippled, but they still fought. Kaladin had his epic battle in the air. But it would never be possible without Adolin, Dalinar, Roion and the others.

 

All in all, I'm not trying to say that Kaladin is a perfect character. He's most certainly not. I understand why you feel that way about him. I see your reasons but as I explained above, I see it in a bit different light. That's why he's still my favourite character. Actually, I was annoyed when he screwed up by challenging Amaram, but I guess if he didn't then he would become too good and I'd be even more mad.

 

Oh my... That was way longer than it was supposed to be... :ph34r: Ups...

[Guest]

Yeah, you are right about it. But still, Kaladin at least has those bumps along the way while I didn't see any for Shallan.

 

Shallan did suffer a shipwreck that trust into a forsaken land with literally no resources but her sharp mind. She also lost her wardship upon Jasnah's death and cling to the impossible idea the Kohlins would still be open to the idea of a casual between her and Adolin. Dalinar nearly turned her down, but allowed her to court Adolin partly because his son seemed fond of her and partly because he is growing discouraged of Adolin failed relationships.

 

Shallan is a little girl from an impoverish house, penny less, friend less with no distinct alliances and yet she managed to make it through. I certainly call these bumps along the roads. She fond tools along the road and found ways to use them, true, but I think it is an understatement to claim she had it easy. Her life may not have been threatened in the way Kaladin's life was, but she still found herself into a poor situation with limited resources and made the best out of it.

 

 

. Dalinar's trust and patience with Kaladin is rather overdone, true. But then again, Dalinar also put the fate of the whole army in Shallan's hands without hesitation. I'm not trying to say that it's fair that Dalinar treated Kaladin like that, I'm only pointing out that Dalinar has a strange tendency to do this As for the contrast between how he treated Kaladin and Adolin - I may be mistaken, but basing on me and some of my friends (and our parents of course) I think that parents generally expect more from their children than from other people. Dalinar wants to prepare his son for the job the best as he can. He saw what Kaladin did and assumed that he's already prepared (I'm not saying it's right, I think he actually wasn't, but that's how Dalinar apparently saw this...). So in this case I'd put the problem on Dalinar not on the creation of other characters...

 

Dalinar's trust and patience with Kaladin was exaggerated and unfounded. It highlighted Dalinar's greatest weakness which is trust. Once he decides someone is trustworthy, he blinds himself to any misgivings he may have. Everything in the murder attempt against Elhokar on the balcony pointed towards Kaladin's men, but Dalinar did not push this issue forward and wrongly trusted Kaladin to do the right thing, which he didn't.

 

As for the difference of treatment, it can not only be explained by parental affiliation. How parents treat their kids is very personal and we all have our hopes, dreams and weaknesses. However, it is true we tend to be harsher with the oldest, expecting him or her to behave perfectly as they are to set the example. The oldest has less free passes then the youngest who benefits from the parents past experience. I do see that in Dalinar as he is harder on Adolin then on anyone else. Overall, it is not we expect more of our children, it is more we do not want them to make the same mistakes we did. We know our kids will make mistakes and will encounter struggles, but we do not want to see them go through the hardships we have been through. Unknown hardships are, somehow, less threatening. So when you get a child that resembles you much, it comes and get you on the inside as the last thing you want is them to experience your past pains, whatever that may be. This is a strong theme in the Dalinar/Adolin's relationship as Dalinar wants to shelter Adolin from his own childhood mistakes. He wants to prepare him for the job as he thinks he has not been prepared well enough. He over compensates with his son and it makes him harsh.

 

It is also hard not to project ourselves within our children... We do have this innate tendency to want to give them what we feel we missed. We see a lot of that in the Kaladin/Lirin relationship as Lirin clearly wants Kaladin to live out his dream to become a surgeon trained in Karbranth and whereas it is true Kaladin is free to chose another path, the expectations Lirin has placed on him do bear some weight. Kaladin's inner wishes is to be a soldier, but he gives it up for Lirin's sake. Upon reaching Dalinar's camp, he briefly comment on how he could have asked to serve with the surgeons and continue his training, but the thought did not even cross his mind. He wanted to be a soldier, period.

 

Bottom line, despite this brief interlude on parental skills which I dunno if it was clear I do think Dalinar should have known better then to put his entire trust into the hands of a 20 years old man. Despite Kaladin obviously lacking experience, Dalinar does not hesitate to put him in direct command of a 1000 men. If I am not mistaken, this is how many Adolin was in charge of early on in WoK. That Dalinar would entrust a complete stranger, no matter how heroic, to such a task without checking for his credential first, without making sure he was up to those responsibilities is truly bewildering.

 

 

The admiration mode... I can totally understand why it was the case among Bridge 4. They were through Damnation itself and he showed them that they can fight their way out of this. He lead them in this, he trained them. He survived the Highstorm. They have reasons to admire him. But at least some still see him as a man not a hero (Rock for sure, Sigzil, Teft an Lopen too, mostly). Or at least not only a hero, but a man as well. As for Renarin... I never perceived him as one who had fallen into admiration mode. True, he admired Kaladin but not that much. He wanted to be useful and to be a son his father wanted him to be. To be a soldier. We know that Adolin for a time served in a spearmen unit to train. I think Renarin wanted to do the same and thought Bridge 4 to be the safest option. Or maybe Glys convinced him somehow...

 

I agree about Bridge 4, which is why I did not mention them in my previous post I disagree about Renarin who seems to hold Kaladin is most respect and this despite seeing him being outright rude with his brother. He calls Adolin out for not trusting nor liking Kaladin despite his brother having a horde of good reasons not to. I have always felt Renarin used the spear training Adolin received as an argument to have Kaladin take him in. His motivations are still mysterious to me, but I doubt he was solely motivated by mimicking his older brother. I felt he truly wanted to be part of Kaladin's unit, on his own. I was proud to be amongst them, proudly wearing his Bridge 4 uniform even if it identifies him as someone one of lesser rank. I get there is some admiration there...

 

 

As for effortlessly mastering surges... Yes, he didn't struggle with anything so much as Shallan with Soulcasting. But he trained his powers the same as Shallan trained Illumination. He had problems with gravity. He tried many times (even as early as WoK I think) but kept failing until he finally got a grasp of it after the first fight with Szeth. Then he put effort into mastering it. True, he did that in one night (maybe even not a whole one), but it didn't come to him at a snap of fingers. At I'm not completely sure if he already mastered it too. By now he can do what Szeth could and then some more. But we don't know if there isn't something more to his surges. I hope there is, because by now adhesion/pressure seems rather lame. I'm waiting for force pushes I mean, he still has two more oaths. If there's nothing more for him to learn then it's rather boring... But overall yeah, by now it seems he had it somewhat easier than Shallan (to an extent because he saw Szeth using those powers too...).

 

Spending one night to master a skill is not what I consider "putting a lot of effort into it". It pretty much fit my definition of grasping the concept by a click of the finger. The fact he failed the first three times does not change the fact he came to be efficient with it while spending relatively little time training. Do you know many real life skills that can be acquired this easily? Is there any field of study into which we could become half proficient in the matter of a few weeks? Could you master your integrals while studying for a few hours only (well alright, perhaps you can, some are quite easy )? We can guess there is more to the surges and Kaladin will figure out more creative ways to use them as he goes along, but he still came to become this awesome Szeth killer Radiant with little work. The contrast between him and Adolin who has dedicated all of his young life to master the sword is telling.

 

 

On the matter of Kaladin taking spotlight in the end... True, he did. At least in the eyes of an average leader. Because I think that we all know that it's not so simple. I have already explained how Kaladin would do nothing if the others didn't put up a fight. Adolin did whatever he could, but he was already wounded and beaten down after Eshonai. And he still did well. Nobody can really deny that. In my opinion he did even more while fighting Szeth than Dalinar. Roion was a hero for a few seconds when he attacked Szeth. If he didn't all would be lost. Adolin's greatest achievement in the last battle was his duel with Eshonai. It goes beyond any doubt. I also believe that to a great extent the heroes of this battle were Drehy and Skar, bravely charging into battle by Adolin's side and saving him at the chasm. And also other members of Bridge 4, those who fought against Szeth. Some of them died, some were crippled, but they still fought. Kaladin had his epic battle in the air. But it would never be possible without Adolin, Dalinar, Roion and the others.

 

While I read the ending scene, my first impression were that Kaladin was indeed taking the spotlight. The entire fight before seemed to be Dalinar/Adolin waiting for Kaladin to show up and save their asses Adolin has clearly been outclassed in any encounters he's had with Szeth. True, he was already wounded (his head mostly at that point) and exhausted when the fight started, but even if he had been top-shape, he would still have lost simply because he is not a surgebinder. Adolin did good in the overall Plateau fight, if not for him, they would have lost ages before Kaladin got here, but the scene still felt as if Kaladin was the ultimate savior whereas he was one of those who contributed. You do well to bring back Skar and Drehy who did admirably in assisting Adolin, never stepping above their role, but always being there when he needed a hand. The bridgemen as a whole were amazing, especially those two who decided to fight despite Kaladin's interdiction.

 

 

Yg All in all, I'm not trying to say that Kaladin is a perfect character. He's most certainly not. I understand why you feel that way about him. I see your reasons but as I explained above, I see it in a bit different light. That's why he's still my favourite character. Actually, I was annoyed when he screwed up by challenging Amaram, but I guess if he didn't then he would become too good and I'd be even more mad.

 

If he were perfect, he'd be boring. I loved the fact he challenged Amaram as it was a true moment of Kaladin trying to take his vengeance despite being presented to us as greater then great. It made him oh so human to lower himself to let a petty squabble (well more then a petty squabble) take the better of him.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Shallan did suffer a shipwreck that trust into a forsaken land with literally no resources but her sharp mind. She also lost her wardship upon Jasnah's death and cling to the impossible idea the Kohlins would still be open to the idea of a casual between her and Adolin. Dalinar nearly turned her down, but allowed her to court Adolin partly because his son seemed fond of her and partly because he is growing discouraged of Adolin failed relationships.

 

Shallan is a little girl from an impoverish house, penny less, friend less with no distinct alliances and yet she managed to make it through. I certainly call these bumps along the roads. She fond tools along the road and found ways to use them, true, but I think it is an understatement to claim she had it easy. Her life may not have been threatened in the way Kaladin's life was, but she still found herself into a poor situation with limited resources and made the best out of it.

 

That's true. Sorry, it was my personal mistake - I tend to see the shipwrecked Shallan as still WoK Shallan (the one I kind of liked) and the WoR Shallan (the one I don't like) is the one since Tvlakv    Taking it into account - no, she didn't have it easy. I'm not even trying to disagree on that. But since meeting Tvlakv, everything Shallan touched was a success - be it Vathah, Ghostbloods, Sebarial or courting Adolin. Even the Oathgate. Jasnah Kholin, intelligent, learned, experienced scholar didn't manage to find it for so long, then suddenly a young and inexperienced girl comes, takes Jasnah's notes and gets matters done? On her own, having only said notes? Doesn't seem very plausible to me...

 

 

Dalinar's trust and patience with Kaladin was exaggerated and unfounded. It highlighted Dalinar's greatest weakness which is trust. Once he decides someone is trustworthy, he blinds himself to any misgivings he may have. Everything in the murder attempt against Elhokar on the balcony pointed towards Kaladin's men, but Dalinar did not push this issue forward and wrongly trusted Kaladin to do the right thing, which he didn't.

 

As for the difference of treatment, it can not only be explained by parental affiliation. How parents treat their kids is very personal and we all have our hopes, dreams and weaknesses. However, it is true we tend to be harsher with the oldest, expecting him or her to behave perfectly as they are to set the example. The oldest has less free passes then the youngest who benefits from the parents past experience. I do see that in Dalinar as he is harder on Adolin then on anyone else. Overall, it is not we expect more of our children, it is more we do not want them to make the same mistakes we did. We know our kids will make mistakes and will encounter struggles, but we do not want to see them go through the hardships we have been through. Unknown hardships are, somehow, less threatening. So when you get a child that resembles you much, it comes and get you on the inside as the last thing you want is them to experience your past pains, whatever that may be. This is a strong theme in the Dalinar/Adolin's relationship as Dalinar wants to shelter Adolin from his own childhood mistakes. He wants to prepare him for the job as he thinks he has not been prepared well enough. He over compensates with his son and it makes him harsh.

 

It is also hard not to project ourselves within our children... We do have this innate tendency to want to give them what we feel we missed. We see a lot of that in the Kaladin/Lirin relationship as Lirin clearly wants Kaladin to live out his dream to become a surgeon trained in Karbranth and whereas it is true Kaladin is free to chose another path, the expectations Lirin has placed on him do bear some weight. Kaladin's inner wishes is to be a soldier, but he gives it up for Lirin's sake. Upon reaching Dalinar's camp, he briefly comment on how he could have asked to serve with the surgeons and continue his training, but the thought did not even cross his mind. He wanted to be a soldier, period.

 

Bottom line, despite this brief interlude on parental skills which I dunno if it was clear I do think Dalinar should have known better then to put his entire trust into the hands of a 20 years old man. Despite Kaladin obviously lacking experience, Dalinar does not hesitate to put him in direct command of a 1000 men. If I am not mistaken, this is how many Adolin was in charge of early on in WoK. That Dalinar would entrust a complete stranger, no matter how heroic, to such a task without checking for his credential first, without making sure he was up to those responsibilities is truly bewildering.

 

Ok, I guess as a child not a parent I see those things a bit differently... Thank you for explaining that, it's a very valuable piece of information to me

 

True, Dalinar's general attitude towards Kaladin was exaggerated and unfounded, regardless of Dalinar's general problem with being too trusting. I'm not denying that.Overall, Kaladin didn't do that bad again considering his inexperience and responsibility given to him... Yeah, he screwed up things, but in this situation it's understandable. What's problematic is the fact that Dalinar trusted him too much. Now, good thing is that he didn't immediately believe into the Amaram story. Readers may think he was a bastard for not believing (on the other hand, he trusted Kaladin with Elhokar's life but not with truthfulness of his words?) but in fact that was a good thing. Dalinar believed enough to investigate but not to act immediately. And that's good otherwise there would be no credibility at all...

 

Then again, Dalinar trusted Shallan with the fate of the whole army. He had only her claims on being able to find the Oathgate to support his plan. If not for her, he would propably plan the battle differently (and ultimately it would fail, but that's other matter). He was right to trust her in the end, but without knowing that it will end like this, would it be wise to entrust lives of thousands men and fate of the kingdom (world maybe) into hands of a young girl? Same goes for the visions. Dalinar trusted them so much that it led to the tragedy on the Tower. Kaladin's case isn't really that solitary...

 

I agree about Bridge 4, which is why I did not mention them in my previous post I disagree about Renarin who seems to hold Kaladin is most respect and this despite seeing him being outright rude with his brother. He calls Adolin out for not trusting nor liking Kaladin despite his brother having a horde of good reasons not to. I have always felt Renarin used the spear training Adolin received as an argument to have Kaladin take him in. His motivations are still mysterious to me, but I doubt he was solely motivated by mimicking his older brother. I felt he truly wanted to be part of Kaladin's unit, on his own. I was proud to be amongst them, proudly wearing his Bridge 4 uniform even if it identifies him as someone one of lesser rank. I get there is some admiration there...

 

Ok, I guess you have a bit of a different view on Renarin's motivations. But still, I admit you are right - he respects Kaladin greatly. Looking at this from the side of Kaladin being rude to Adolin, it's wrong. But for a while Renarin was convinced that he has lost both his father and his brother. He lost everything. Then he found out that they survived thanks to one man (actually the whole Bridge 4, but one man led them). If I were in such situation I would have also thought this man a miracle whom I owe not losing everything I care for. I think that is a valid reason for Renarin's respect towards Kaladin. And, well, Renarin is a Truthwatcher. What if he saw/sensed that Kaladin is a proto-Radiant? And wanted to get close to him being a proto-Radiant himself? That may have been part of the reason too.

 

 

Spending one night to master a skill is not what I consider "putting a lot of effort into it". It pretty much fit my definition of grasping the concept by a click of the finger. The fact he failed the first three times does not change the fact he came to be efficient with it while spending relatively little time training. Do you know many real life skills that can be acquired this easily? Is there any field of study into which we could become half proficient in the matter of a few weeks? Could you master your integrals while studying for a few hours only (well alright, perhaps you can, some are quite easy )? We can guess there is more to the surges and Kaladin will figure out more creative ways to use them as he goes along, but he still came to become this awesome Szeth killer Radiant with little work. The contrast between him and Adolin who has dedicated all of his young life to master the sword is telling.

 

Hey, I never actually said "a lot of effort". I said he put effort into training but I didn't indicate it was a lot of effort. Similair for Shallan - as soon as she got the grasp of Illumination (using drawings to create illusions over herself), she had no problems with doing just that. What she was doing to imrpove was mostly finding new ways to use it, as she wasn't aware what exactly she could achieve with it. Kaladin, on the other hand, saw Szeth so he knew what he could possibly do -he only had to work out how to do this. But yes, he did it very quickly, too quickly even. Maybe because Syl was helping him? Well, still too quickly, but let's say it's to an extent a thing of Radiants to learn quickly (see: Lift, Wyndle said she didn't train Progression before, but he had no problems growing vines and saving Gawx; actually, Shallan did very well soulcasting the first 2 times, she failed with the stick because she was tired and had too little stormlight).

 

My opinion on Kaladin defeating Szeth? One - Szeth was in a worse position as he was using up stormlight more quickly. Two - at the very end, Szeth didn't try too much to survive. Three - it's all actually thanks to Syl and her ability to change instantly into shield or the most convenient weapon. While it's still unfair that Kaladin learned gravity surge so quickly to be as good as Szeth.

 

As for my integrals... Actually, if I put as much determination into learning them as Kaladin did with his gravity surge (because he was very determined) then I think I would. My problem is that my studying looks like this: 5 minutes studying, 10 minutes staring blankly at the page and thinking about... well, everything what is not integrals

 

 

While I read the ending scene, my first impression were that Kaladin was indeed taking the spotlight. The entire fight before seemed to be Dalinar/Adolin waiting for Kaladin to show up and save their asses Adolin has clearly been outclassed in any encounters he's had with Szeth. True, he was already wounded (his head mostly at that point) and exhausted when the fight started, but even if he had been top-shape, he would still have lost simply because he is not a surgebinder. Adolin did good in the overall Plateau fight, if not for him, they would have lost ages before Kaladin got here, but the scene still felt as if Kaladin was the ultimate savior whereas he was one of those who contributed. You do well to bring back Skar and Drehy who did admirably in assisting Adolin, never stepping above their role, but always being there when he needed a hand. The bridgemen as a whole were amazing, especially those two who decided to fight despite Kaladin's interdiction.

 

Hm... No. Adolin and Dalinar weren't expecting Kaladin to come at all. The bridgemen yes, but not them. They fully expected to defeat Szeth on their own or fall in battle. It's the reader who expects Kaladin to show up and save the day

 

Adolin was outclassed by Szeth but that is understandable - he's no surgebinder yet. And yet he did well and it can be seen that he did well. Besides, as I said, Adolin's moment of glory was the fight with Eshonai (a hard opponent in her own right). And if anybody discards this for the sake of Kaladin defeating Szeth, then I'm very disappointed in this person - Adolin was a hero too. Not in fighting Szeth but in fighting Eshonai. Please, Dalinar was of far less use than Adolin in this battle!

 

And for me, the greatest heroes of this battle are Skar, Drehy and Roion. If not for them, Adolin and Dalinar both would be dead. And they all did it without any help - no Shards, no surgebinding. Roion even paid the ultimate prize for his bravery. Ok, there's the matter that Skar and Drehy are propably Kaladin's squires, that's why they managed to keep up with Adolin and hold a man in a Shardplate above the chasm. But I think it's still their bravery what saved the day. If not for them, Adolin would die falling in the chasm, he wouldn't have spotted Szeth and engage him to protect and warn Dalinar, so Dalinar would be killed without a fight - Szeth would simply sneak up to him and bam! the job is done.

 

As for the bridgemen fighting Parshendi - I think that Kaladin didn't forbid them to fight. He wanted Dalinar to keep them away from fighting if possible, because they were mostly untrained and he wanted to protect them from possible harm.

 

If he were perfect, he'd be boring. I loved the fact he challenged Amaram as it was a true moment of Kaladin trying to take his vengeance despite being presented to us as greater then great. It made him oh so human to lower himself to let a petty squabble (well more then a petty squabble) take the better of him.

 

Ok, now I'm trying to decide if you are serious of if this is sarcasm... My fried-by-integrals brain cannot really process this

[Guest]

That's true. Sorry, it was my personal mistake - I tend to see the shipwrecked Shallan as still WoK Shallan (the one I kind of liked) and the WoR Shallan (the one I don't like) is the one since Tvlakv    Taking it into account - no, she didn't have it easy. I'm not even trying to disagree on that. But since meeting Tvlakv, everything Shallan touched was a success - be it Vathah, Ghostbloods, Sebarial or courting Adolin. Even the Oathgate. Jasnah Kholin, intelligent, learned, experienced scholar didn't manage to find it for so long, then suddenly a young and inexperienced girl comes, takes Jasnah's notes and gets matters done? On her own, having only said notes? Doesn't seem very plausible to me...

 

I get your feeling... One of my first posts on the 17th shard was a rant against Shallan    I do agree she figured out the oathgate rather quickly and it has been bothering me too she could unlock a mystery Jasnah has been working on for years. We do not know if the Ghostblood will be a success or no and I have inklings she will trash her courtship of Adolin for being unresponsive and uncaring to him.

 

 

Ok, I guess as a child not a parent I see those things a bit differently... Thank you for explaining that, it's a very valuable piece of information to me

 

From a child's perspective, it must be an extremely annoying behavior I recalled how I felt about my parents when I was younger Things change. Not every parent's experience is the same, but I have seen tendencies and I cannot help knowing how I feel about my kids. I would also add your relationship is different with same gender children... I do tend to be more cuddling and protective of my baby boy :ph34r: I SO understand Navani with Elhokar even if I dislike him

 

 

True, Dalinar's general attitude towards Kaladin was exaggerated and unfounded, regardless of Dalinar's general problem with being too trusting. I'm not denying that.Overall, Kaladin didn't do that bad again considering his inexperience and responsibility given to him... Yeah, he screwed up things, but in this situation it's understandable. What's problematic is the fact that Dalinar trusted him too much. Now, good thing is that he didn't immediately believe into the Amaram story. Readers may think he was a bastard for not believing (on the other hand, he trusted Kaladin with Elhokar's life but not with truthfulness of his words?) but in fact that was a good thing. Dalinar believed enough to investigate but not to act immediately. And that's good otherwise there would be no credibility at all...

 

We, the readers, knew Kaladin was up to the task, but Dalinar didn't. Kaladin ultimately proved to be trustworthy. However, Dalinar did not know these things when he entrusted Kaladin with not only a 1000 men, but the guard ship of his family and the king itself.

 

I didn't think Dalinar was a bastard not to believe Kaladin. He had no reason to think Amaram was a scumbag, but to his credit he did lead his small investigation meaning. The only one who readily believed Kal was Adolin, but Adolin has this intuition that tells him people are hiding things..........

 

 

Then again, Dalinar trusted Shallan with the fate of the whole army. He had only her claims on being able to find the Oathgate to support his plan. If not for her, he would propably plan the battle differently (and ultimately it would fail, but that's other matter). He was right to trust her in the end, but without knowing that it will end like this, would it be wise to entrust lives of thousands men and fate of the kingdom (world maybe) into hands of a young girl? Same goes for the visions. Dalinar trusted them so much that it led to the tragedy on the Tower. Kaladin's case isn't really that solitary...

 

That was foolish as well, but at that point I think Dalinar was not entrusting the army to Shallan, a young girl, but to a Radiant. I believe the distinction is important. Speaking of which, did you find it strange both Dalinar and Navani learned Shallan was a Radiant weeks before Adolin and no one saw fit to share this vital information with him?

 

Bottom line is Dalinar should listen to Adolin when Adolin tells him not to trust someone or that someone is hiding something

 

 

 

Ok, I guess you have a bit of a different view on Renarin's motivations. But still, I admit you are right - he respects Kaladin greatly. Looking at this from the side of Kaladin being rude to Adolin, it's wrong. But for a while Renarin was convinced that he has lost both his father and his brother. He lost everything. Then he found out that they survived thanks to one man (actually the whole Bridge 4, but one man led them). If I were in such situation I would have also thought this man a miracle whom I owe not losing everything I care for. I think that is a valid reason for Renarin's respect towards Kaladin. And, well, Renarin is a Truthwatcher. What if he saw/sensed that Kaladin is a proto-Radiant? And wanted to get close to him being a proto-Radiant himself? That may have been part of the reason too.

 

I am unsure of Renarin's motivation in this specific manners. It could be he knew Kaladin was a Radiant, but if this were the case, why keep it a secret? Why didn't he tell his family? I can understand why he didn't tell them about him, even if I strongly disagree as to why he did it, but Kaladin? If he knew about him, shouldn't he have come forward with this crucial information? If he did guessed, but refused to share, then what does this make of him as a person?

 

 

Hey, I never actually said "a lot of effort". I said he put effort into training but I didn't indicate it was a lot of effort. Similair for Shallan - as soon as she got the grasp of Illumination (using drawings to create illusions over herself), she had no problems with doing just that. What she was doing to imrpove was mostly finding new ways to use it, as she wasn't aware what exactly she could achieve with it. Kaladin, on the other hand, saw Szeth so he knew what he could possibly do -he only had to work out how to do this. But yes, he did it very quickly, too quickly even. Maybe because Syl was helping him? Well, still too quickly, but let's say it's to an extent a thing of Radiants to learn quickly (see: Lift, Wyndle said she didn't train Progression before, but he had no problems growing vines and saving Gawx; actually, Shallan did very well soulcasting the first 2 times, she failed with the stick because she was tired and had too little stormlight).

 

To Shallan's defense, she did once knew how to efficiently use Illumination... She was barely re-learning what she once knew and she has not fully recovered her full capacity. Lift is a good example... It was quite strange she could managed something as difficult as reviving a dead person without any previous training...

 

 

My opinion on Kaladin defeating Szeth? One - Szeth was in a worse position as he was using up stormlight more quickly. Two - at the very end, Szeth didn't try too much to survive. Three - it's all actually thanks to Syl and her ability to change instantly into shield or the most convenient weapon. While it's still unfair that Kaladin learned gravity surge so quickly to be as good as Szeth.

 

As for my integrals... Actually, if I put as much determination into learning them as Kaladin did with his gravity surge (because he was very determined) then I think I would. My problem is that my studying looks like this: 5 minutes studying, 10 minutes staring blankly at the page and thinking about... well, everything what is not integrals

 

I get how it is Kaladin defeated Szeth: we had a full topic on the subject a while back. I was a strong defender of how rubbed I felt about Szeth loosing so easily. Others made strong arguments on the weapon changing ability and Szeth mental state.

 

Come on! Integrals are fun    So what kind are you doing right now? Although, back in my day, there were much less stuff on the Internet and it was quite slow :ph34r:

 

 

 

Adolin was outclassed by Szeth but that is understandable - he's no surgebinder yet. And yet he did well and it can be seen that he did well. Besides, as I said, Adolin's moment of glory was the fight with Eshonai (a hard opponent in her own right). And if anybody discards this for the sake of Kaladin defeating Szeth, then I'm very disappointed in this person - Adolin was a hero too. Not in fighting Szeth but in fighting Eshonai. Please, Dalinar was of far less use than Adolin in this battle!

 

And for me, the greatest heroes of this battle are Skar, Drehy and Roion. If not for them, Adolin and Dalinar both would be dead. And they all did it without any help - no Shards, no surgebinding. Roion even paid the ultimate prize for his bravery. Ok, there's the matter that Skar and Drehy are propably Kaladin's squires, that's why they managed to keep up with Adolin and hold a man in a Shardplate above the chasm. But I think it's still their bravery what saved the day. If not for them, Adolin would die falling in the chasm, he wouldn't have spotted Szeth and engage him to protect and warn Dalinar, so Dalinar would be killed without a fight - Szeth would simply sneak up to him and bam! the job is done.

 

I think the average reader would tend to focus on Kaladin's fighting, but I could be wrong on this one... Perhaps you should ask your mother? Mine does not read fantasy... neither does my father nor my husband

 

Dalinar was of less use because his role in the battle was not to fight, but to lead from afar. Against Szeth, he did much better then Adolin who couldn't even land a blow. We could blame the trashing he received shortly before, but Dalinar did injured his shoulder... I think fact is Adolin cannot hold his ground against surgebinders.

 

Skar and Drehy had something to do with Adolin noticing Szeth? The way I read the scene he asks the bridgemen to look for his gauntlet and he then sees someone he mistakes for a messenger until he realizes it is the Assassin in White. Next scene we have is Adolin crashing through the command tent, his plate destroyed and him nearly unconscious. I have always took Szeth wanted to take Adolin out of combat without killing him so he could face Dalinar, alone. Szeth wanted to warn Dalinar of his arrival, he wanted to face him: thrusting Adolin through the sky was the warning.

 

 

Ok, now I'm trying to decide if you are serious of if this is sarcasm... My fried-by-integrals brain cannot really process this

 

I was serious! I think it is great Kaladin did some mistakes and showed some humanity in falling for his weakness. I hate when characters seem to have none.

[Pathfinder]

isnt there WoB somewhere where he states that although similar, surges of the same name operate differently from radiant order to radiant order. so the skybreakers division would function differently from the dusbringers division. Which is why i want to see how a truthwatcher uses illumination to see the future

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I get your feeling... One of my first posts on the 17th shard was a rant against Shallan    I do agree she figured out the oathgate rather quickly and it has been bothering me too she could unlock a mystery Jasnah has been working on for years. We do not know if the Ghostblood will be a success or no and I have inklings she will trash her courtship of Adolin for being unresponsive and uncaring to him.

 

Well, the thing with Adolin was going very well in WoR... Though I agree, in the next book they will propably both screw it up, Shallan by having no time for Adolin and Adolin by not thinking himself good enough for her.

 

 

We, the readers, knew Kaladin was up to the task, but Dalinar didn't. Kaladin ultimately proved to be trustworthy. However, Dalinar did not know these things when he entrusted Kaladin with not only a 1000 men, but the guard ship of his family and the king itself.

 

I didn't think Dalinar was a bastard not to believe Kaladin. He had no reason to think Amaram was a scumbag, but to his credit he did lead his small investigation meaning. The only one who readily believed Kal was Adolin, but Adolin has this intuition that tells him people are hiding things..........

 

 

 

That was foolish as well, but at that point I think Dalinar was not entrusting the army to Shallan, a young girl, but to a Radiant. I believe the distinction is important. Speaking of which, did you find it strange both Dalinar and Navani learned Shallan was a Radiant weeks before Adolin and no one saw fit to share this vital information with him?

 

Bottom line is Dalinar should listen to Adolin when Adolin tells him not to trust someone or that someone is hiding something

 

As I said, it wasn't too smart of Dalinar to do this... And Navani didn't know that Shallan was a Radiant. Shallan told Dalinar not to tell anyone, Navani included. And yeah, Dalinar should listen to his son much more. By now Adolin is the only person in the whole SA to always be right while judging people (ok, maybe not in Shallan's case, but he fancied her so...) - he knew Sadeas was a bastard, he knew Amaram was hiding something, he knew something was up with Kaladin that's why he was so suspicious about him at first, he changed his mind only when Kaladin proved to be no threat but an ally. I actually think that Adolin sensed that Kaladin is much more than he seems (a Radiant) so he didn't know if he should trust him. If only Dalinar was so careful...

 

 

I am unsure of Renarin's motivation in this specific manners. It could be he knew Kaladin was a Radiant, but if this were the case, why keep it a secret? Why didn't he tell his family? I can understand why he didn't tell them about him, even if I strongly disagree as to why he did it, but Kaladin? If he knew about him, shouldn't he have come forward with this crucial information? If he did guessed, but refused to share, then what does this make of him as a person?

 

Well, I'm only speculating but I have no idea if I'm even close to the real thing. Actually, Renarin is that one character whose motivations I don't get at all. I try to find reasons but I may be completely mistaken... The only thing I'm at least quite sure is why Renarin admired Kaladin - because Kal saved his family. But everything else Renarin did in this regard? I have no real idea

 

 

To Shallan's defense, she did once knew how to efficiently use Illumination... She was barely re-learning what she once knew and she has not fully recovered her full capacity. Lift is a good example... It was quite strange she could managed something as difficult as reviving a dead person without any previous training...

 

She knew how to use Illumination when she was 10/11... I find it more surprising that a child so young could master so hard skill than an adult man who matered a similiarly hard one while he knew what he was supposed to be doing I don't know, maybe Shallan was a genius kid or maybe she had help. I have no idea. But as for right now, you're right. Recalling an ability we once knew is easier than learning a new one. As for Lift - I have no explanation but "Radiants are just so cool they know what to do". Not a very good one, I admit. Maybe she acted on instinct?

 

 

I get how it is Kaladin defeated Szeth: we had a full topic on the subject a while back. I was a strong defender of how rubbed I felt about Szeth loosing so easily. Others made strong arguments on the weapon changing ability and Szeth mental state.

 

Come on! Integrals are fun    So what kind are you doing right now? Although, back in my day, there were much less stuff on the Internet and it was quite slow :ph34r:

 

I was only pointing out that in fact Kaladin wasn't oh-so-awesome in this fight. Syl was awesome and Szeth had serious disadvantage. But to see this one must think about it at least some time... To an average reader Kaladin was like a Superman or something like that.

 

Indefinite integrals. Packed full with logarithms, roots and trigonometric functions (but not the easy ones, the worse ones like arcsin or arctg).  It would be more fun if I didn't know that if I don't get them quickly I'll fail the semester   

 

 

I think the average reader would tend to focus on Kaladin's fighting, but I could be wrong on this one... Perhaps you should ask your mother? Mine does not read fantasy... neither does my father nor my husband

 

Dalinar was of less use because his role in the battle was not to fight, but to lead from afar. Against Szeth, he did much better then Adolin who couldn't even land a blow. We could blame the trashing he received shortly before, but Dalinar did injured his shoulder... I think fact is Adolin cannot hold his ground against surgebinders.

 

Skar and Drehy had something to do with Adolin noticing Szeth? The way I read the scene he asks the bridgemen to look for his gauntlet and he then sees someone he mistakes for a messenger until he realizes it is the Assassin in White. Next scene we have is Adolin crashing through the command tent, his plate destroyed and him nearly unconscious. I have always took Szeth wanted to take Adolin out of combat without killing him so he could face Dalinar, alone. Szeth wanted to warn Dalinar of his arrival, he wanted to face him: thrusting Adolin through the sky was the warning.

 

I talked to my mom about this. She said (more or less, I'm translating here...) "It was obvious that Kaladin has always been the one to defeat Szeth in the end. But the whole battle was great. And that one, that prince... [Adolin, but she has problems with remembering names of characters] He was very good fighting that Parshendi woman." When I inquired if it felt like Kaladin stole the spotlight, she said: "It's like in the Lord of the Rings. Do you think that the whole battle was focused on Eowyn killing the Nazgul? The battle was about the king's [Theoden] bravery, Aragorn leading additional army and men of Gondor doing his very best in the city. Eowyn defeated the most dangerous opponent on the battlefield, but she didn't win the battle." I think that is about accurate comparision

 

We know Dalinar was there to lead not to fight. But an average reader will see a man who didn't fight and when he tried he got hurt... And it's unfair to compare Dalinar's and Adolin's performance versus Szeth. Dalinar is a surgebinder. Besides, Adolin was fighting Szeth a bit longer and alone, with no support.

 

No, you didn't understand what I was trying to say. It's not that Skar and Drehy had something with Adolin noticing Szeth. But they were the ones who saved him from death by falling down the chasm. If they weren't there, Adolin would fall and therefore he wouldn't notice Szeth and so on They really do deserve that "storming raise" Adolin promised them

 

As for Szeth trying to get Adolin out of the fight - he may have as well wanted to kill him. Almost same thing was with Roion (though Roion was sent straight up). And I don't think Szeth would try to warn Dalinar if he wasn't interrupted by Adolin. If he wanted Dalinar to know he was coming, he wouldn't sneak around the battleground in a cloak. He would fall from the sky in a burst of stormlight, white clothing seen by everyone (yup, pun was intended ).

 

 

isnt there WoB somewhere where he states that although similar, surges of the same name operate differently from radiant order to radiant order. so the skybreakers division would function differently from the dusbringers division. Which is why i want to see how a truthwatcher uses illumination to see the future

True. Then maybe Truthwatcher Progression is different than Edgedancer Progression? Personally I think that seeing the future doesn't come from a certain surge but from connecting two of them: Progression and Illumination. A combo, so to say. Like Shallan using Illumination to change hearts of the others (which Pattern indicated is a way of using Transformation).

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Relationship fun with Veil, AKA Feather puts her shipping goggles on:

• Kaladin/Veil: Kaladin vs. dangerous Ghostblood agent Veil and trying to stop her from doing whatever mission she's been put up to. As he investigates her, however, he finds himself intrigued by the darkeyed woman who almost speaks like a lighteyes and senses there's something familiar about her... Meanwhile Shallan has to try to keep up the act and make sure that Kaladin doesn't ever connect the dots or there could be trouble for her.
• Adolin/Veil: Adolin runs into an interesting darkeyed stranger and can't stop thinking about her. He feels very guilty for not being faithful to Shallan, especially when all of his girl troubles seem to start because he can't keep his eyes from wandering and tries very hard to forget about it. Shallan is just kind of shaking her head like "oh you adorable idiot did you really just start crushing on both versions of me?"
• Renarin/Veil: My personal favorite because I am a Shallarin shipper through and through. A Lightweaver uses Illumination to create illusions and lies, but a Truthwatcher uses Illumination to see into the true heart of the matter. When Renarin runs into "Veil" his powers allow him to know exactly who she is. He tries to hide the fact that he knows, because he realizes this is a dangerous secret, but when she finds out that he's discovered her, she has to make a choice between doing what is necessary to protect her identity and finally having someone who knows the truth. Basically, I'm an absolute sucker for relationships between "the Liar" and "the One Who Cannot be Lied to" and I was already a sucker for Shallarin so yeeeeeeep.
• Mraize/Veil: My guilty pleasure ship, because I am such a Mraize fangirl. I've got a hunch that while the Ghostbloods are morally questionable, they're not as unequivocably "evil" as we originally believed. Mraize has found out her secret, but the fact that the newest Ghostblood recruit also happens to be an influential Knight Radiant in training and the betrothed of a Highprince's heir only makes her more valuable. As Shallan finds out more of the Ghostblood's side of things, she's caught in a conflict of loyalties between the Kholins and the Knights Radiant and Mraize and the Ghostbloods. She starts to see her two identities as more and more separate, allowing her to justify the increasing contradictions in her actions. While Shallan is betrothed and loyal to Adolin, Veil is more of a wild card, and Mraize is oh so fond of his new recruit. 

I'm not even going to try to justify that last ship, just leave me here in my pile of shipping garbage and allow me to roll around in this relationship trash. It is every kind of guilty pleasure kind of ship and I don't even care. Renarin/Veil Shallarin shipping is my jam though. Man I love it so much.

[Guest]

Well, the thing with Adolin was going very well in WoR... Though I agree, in the next book they will propably both screw it up, Shallan by having no time for Adolin and Adolin by not thinking himself good enough for her.

 

The courtship with Adolin is indeed going well, but can it really count as one of Shallan's accomplishments? On their first encounter, Shallan was trying to apply Tyn's rule: do not appear clingy, make yourself unreachable as the boy who's courted every single lady won't be wooed by an easy to get girl. On their first date, she tried to be Jasnah: she tried to act as a proper lighteyed lady. She was set to behave just like every single other woman Adolin has ever dated, that is to say, to falsely sound interested in what he has to say, to smile and bat her eyes stupidly. It all went down the sewer when she said the word "poop". Her natural self pop out and she ask a very genuine, personal question of great interest, to her that is, and he responded by genuinely providing her with an answer. She completely unsettled him, but not purposely.

 

The rest of her courtship has been based on her trying to keep him interested by not appearing clingy (Tyn again) which she manages mostly because poor Adolin is actually falling for her. He's been wanting to keep a relationship for some time, so he already was committed to make this one work before they even meet. It is pure hazard Sallan proved out to be the perfect girl for him, a genuine natural girl who is able to draw the genuine and natural Adolin out.

 

I would not readily classify Shallan's courtship of Adolin as one of her greatest achievement as I do not feel she did much there except being herself. Alright, she did force herself onto him a few times, demanding kisses and going as far as to kiss him in public, which would have played in her favor... I mean, how old is Adolin? He must be DYING to lay down with a girl... Really. Hormones and such. No matter how shy he appears about such things.

 

I agree they'll screw it out, both of them.

 

As I said, it wasn't too smart of Dalinar to do this... And Navani didn't know that Shallan was a Radiant. Shallan told Dalinar not to tell anyone, Navani included. And yeah, Dalinar should listen to his son much more. By now Adolin is the only person in the whole SA to always be right while judging people (ok, maybe not in Shallan's case, but he fancied her so...) - he knew Sadeas was a bastard, he knew Amaram was hiding something, he knew something was up with Kaladin that's why he was so suspicious about him at first, he changed his mind only when Kaladin proved to be no threat but an ally. I actually think that Adolin sensed that Kaladin is much more than he seems (a Radiant) so he didn't know if he should trust him. If only Dalinar was so careful...

 

Oh... I thought Navani knew... My mistake then. I seemed to recall her knowing, but I must have been hallucinating it.

 

Adolin has intuition, some sort of 6th sense that gives him a vibe of right and wrong about people and events. He has it too when he meets Eshonai. His first reaction is that something is terribly terribly wrong. Something feels off. Sometimes is not right about Eshonai, but he dismisses his own feeling.

 

I think he sensed something was off with Kaladin, but he couldn't guess or figure it out. Once he found out, he was happy he has been right all along.

 

Shallan... Well, I think his intuition must turn itself off when he gets too emotionally involved.

 

 

Well, I'm only speculating but I have no idea if I'm even close to the real thing. Actually, Renarin is that one character whose motivations I don't get at all. I try to find reasons but I may be completely mistaken... The only thing I'm at least quite sure is why Renarin admired Kaladin - because Kal saved his family. But everything else Renarin did in this regard? I have no real idea

 

I think you are right in saying Renarin, at the very least, admires Kaladin. I also think he is trying to be his own person and he is trying to move away from his family's secure but overbearing arms.

 

 

She knew how to use Illumination when she was 10/11... I find it more surprising that a child so young could master so hard skill than an adult man who matered a similiarly hard one while he knew what he was supposed to be doing I don't know, maybe Shallan was a genius kid or maybe she had help. I have no idea. But as for right now, you're right. Recalling an ability we once knew is easier than learning a new one. As for Lift - I have no explanation but "Radiants are just so cool they know what to do". Not a very good one, I admit. Maybe she acted on instinct?

 

10-11 is not so young... Illumination is the mastery of light to create illusions. It is possible a child that age manage to pull it of, but I doubt that is the only thing you can do with it... Lift. I dunno. I get she acted on instinct, but I still get the feeling healing someone should be harder, which is why I am very keen to see Renarin use this particular power of his.

 

 

I was only pointing out that in fact Kaladin wasn't oh-so-awesome in this fight. Syl was awesome and Szeth had serious disadvantage. But to see this one must think about it at least some time... To an average reader Kaladin was like a Superman or something like that.

 

Indefinite integrals. Packed full with logarithms, roots and trigonometric functions (but not the easy ones, the worse ones like arcsin or arctg).  It would be more fun if I didn't know that if I don't get them quickly I'll fail the semester 

 

I thought Kaladin sounded like Superman at the end :ph34r:

 

Wait till you get to the integrals in the Z-domain, those were quite space .... or the numeric stuff which I'll admit is actually useful to know. Transfer functions are a must for an electronical engineer although nobody was using them on an every day basis at my company.... You rarely sit in front of a circuit and try to get its equation... We were mostly concerned by "what will happen to the unit and the next one if this resistor pathetically crashes?"  Every thing that is linear algebra is also quite used. Apart from that well... As an antenna engineer (changed field on the market), I do use the equation of the parabola and the ellipsoid on a regular basis , the logarithm is my every day cup of tea  :ph34r: Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division are also very widely used :ph34r: :ph34r: and complex numbers :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:  You see, very hardcore stuff :ph34r:

 

 

I talked to my mom about this. She said (more or less, I'm translating here...) "It was obvious that Kaladin has always been the one to defeat Szeth in the end. But the whole battle was great. And that one, that prince... [Adolin, but she has problems with remembering names of characters] He was very good fighting that Parshendi woman." When I inquired if it felt like Kaladin stole the spotlight, she said: "It's like in the Lord of the Rings. Do you think that the whole battle was focused on Eowyn killing the Nazgul? The battle was about the king's [Theoden] bravery, Aragorn leading additional army and men of Gondor doing his very best in the city. Eowyn defeated the most dangerous opponent on the battlefield, but she didn't win the battle." I think that is about accurate comparision

 

We know Dalinar was there to lead not to fight. But an average reader will see a man who didn't fight and when he tried he got hurt... And it's unfair to compare Dalinar's and Adolin's performance versus Szeth. Dalinar is a surgebinder. Besides, Adolin was fighting Szeth a bit longer and alone, with no support.

 

No, you didn't understand what I was trying to say. It's not that Skar and Drehy had something with Adolin noticing Szeth. But they were the ones who saved him from death by falling down the chasm. If they weren't there, Adolin would fall and therefore he wouldn't notice Szeth and so on They really do deserve that "storming raise" Adolin promised them

 

As for Szeth trying to get Adolin out of the fight - he may have as well wanted to kill him. Almost same thing was with Roion (though Roion was sent straight up). And I don't think Szeth would try to warn Dalinar if he wasn't interrupted by Adolin. If he wanted Dalinar to know he was coming, he wouldn't sneak around the battleground in a cloak. He would fall from the sky in a burst of stormlight, white clothing seen by everyone (yup, pun was intended ).

 

Your mom's analysis was interesting. I never made the parallel with Eowyn in LoTR. It is true her act of bravery was overshadowed by anything done by Aragorn.

 

 Dalinar was fighting without his plate for what, the first time in the last 30 years? He is an aging man into his fifties and admitted not being as quick as he recalled. It is true he seemed to have had help from his bond when fighting Szeth as he was able to move quickly and beautifully, beyond possible means. Adolin, a young man in his early twenties, most likely very quick had a hard time just landing a blow.

 

We don't know what happened between Szeth and Adolin before he was trust into the ground. We know Adolin saw Szeth and next he was crashing to the ground. One of his leg plate was destroyed and his breastplate was shattered. Szeth did that, but we do not know how. We do not know if they actually exchange blows or if Adolin was simply thrown out in the sky, trashed down a few times to break the plate before his final landing next to Dalinar. By the state of him, I'd wager the second.

 

Oh all right. I did misunderstood you. They do deserve their raise

 

I think if Szeth had wanted to kill Adolin, he would have, but he purposely made him crash right next to Dalinar. I took it as a warning: here's your son, he's alive, now come and fight me. I did not get Adolin interrupted Szeth, I understood Szeth came willingly to Adolin, to take him out of the fight and to draw Dalinar out. I think Szeth was hoping to kill Dalinar in a fair fight. Remember how he always ranted people died because they were poor fighter? I think he was hoping Dalinar would turn out being better. He wanted to fight Dalinar, not just to kill him.

[Guest]

Interesting ideas...

 

 

• Kaladin/Veil: Kaladin vs. dangerous Ghostblood agent Veil and trying to stop her from doing whatever mission she's been put up to. As he investigates her, however, he finds himself intrigued by the darkeyed woman who almost speaks like a lighteyes and senses there's something familiar about her... Meanwhile Shallan has to try to keep up the act and make sure that Kaladin doesn't ever connect the dots or there could be trouble for her.

 

I am unsure if Kaladin is perceptive enough to sense something familiar about Veil... Such intuitions is something I tend to link to Adolin with his right/wrong radar.

 

 

• Adolin/Veil: Adolin runs into an interesting darkeyed stranger and can't stop thinking about her. He feels very guilty for not being faithful to Shallan, especially when all of his girl troubles seem to start because he can't keep his eyes from wandering and tries very hard to forget about it. Shallan is just kind of shaking her head like "oh you adorable idiot did you really just start crushing on both versions of me?"

 

Could Adolin really be attracted to a darkeye? He sees them as below him and would probably not look twice to one. Alright. He did eyed up that darkeyed waitress, but I have a hard time seeing him crush on one. Besides, I think Adolin may have too much on his plate over the next book to think about pretty girls.

 

 

• Renarin/Veil: My personal favorite because I am a Shallarin shipper through and through. A Lightweaver uses Illumination to create illusions and lies, but a Truthwatcher uses Illumination to see into the true heart of the matter. When Renarin runs into "Veil" his powers allow him to know exactly who she is. He tries to hide the fact that he knows, because he realizes this is a dangerous secret, but when she finds out that he's discovered her, she has to make a choice between doing what is necessary to protect her identity and finally having someone who knows the truth. Basically, I'm an absolute sucker for relationships between "the Liar" and "the One Who Cannot be Lied to" and I was already a sucker for Shallarin so yeeeeeeep.

 

I actually like that one. Renarin uncovering Shallan's secret identity would definitely fit within my perception of the Truthwatchers. He would then be forced to maintain the secret, a thing I see him managing quite well as he has been keeping secrets for a while now, didn't he?

 

 

• Mraize/Veil: My guilty pleasure ship, because I am such a Mraize fangirl. I've got a hunch that while the Ghostbloods are morally questionable, they're not as unequivocably "evil" as we originally believed. Mraize has found out her secret, but the fact that the newest Ghostblood recruit also happens to be an influential Knight Radiant in training and the betrothed of a Highprince's heir only makes her more valuable. As Shallan finds out more of the Ghostblood's side of things, she's caught in a conflict of loyalties between the Kholins and the Knights Radiant and Mraize and the Ghostbloods. She starts to see her two identities as more and more separate, allowing her to justify the increasing contradictions in her actions. While Shallan is betrothed and loyal to Adolin, Veil is more of a wild card, and Mraize is oh so fond of his new recruit. 

 

I love the idea of Veil entering a torrid relationship with Mraize... and I have entertained the idea she may find the Ghostbloods more to her liking then she expected. I also had the idea Mraize would insist Shallan Davar maintains her betrothal with Adolin Kohlin, even if she is unsure if she needs it anymore. When Adolin starts acting distant, she finds herself out of options to keep it up until Iyatil comes forward to explain her a thing or two... about men... But we are probably not going to see that.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

The courtship with Adolin is indeed going well, but can it really count as one of Shallan's accomplishments? On their first encounter, Shallan was trying to apply Tyn's rule: do not appear clingy, make yourself unreachable as the boy who's courted every single lady won't be wooed by an easy to get girl. On their first date, she tried to be Jasnah: she tried to act as a proper lighteyed lady. She was set to behave just like every single other woman Adolin has ever dated, that is to say, to falsely sound interested in what he has to say, to smile and bat her eyes stupidly. It all went down the sewer when she said the word "poop". Her natural self pop out and she ask a very genuine, personal question of great interest, to her that is, and he responded by genuinely providing her with an answer. She completely unsettled him, but not purposely.

 

The rest of her courtship has been based on her trying to keep him interested by not appearing clingy (Tyn again) which she manages mostly because poor Adolin is actually falling for her. He's been wanting to keep a relationship for some time, so he already was committed to make this one work before they even meet. It is pure hazard Sallan proved out to be the perfect girl for him, a genuine natural girl who is able to draw the genuine and natural Adolin out.

 

I would not readily classify Shallan's courtship of Adolin as one of her greatest achievement as I do not feel she did much there except being herself. Alright, she did force herself onto him a few times, demanding kisses and going as far as to kiss him in public, which would have played in her favor... I mean, how old is Adolin? He must be DYING to lay down with a girl... Really. Hormones and such. No matter how shy he appears about such things.

 

I agree they'll screw it out, both of them.

 

I didn't say it was one of her greatest accomplishments. It was just one of many things that went well for her. She started talking about excrements at the first date and still had a second one? I have a hard time buying this, I get she was genuine, but I honestly... If Adolin didn't simply want to keep a relationship for the sake of it (later he did really fall for Shallan, but I think that in the beginning it was only his desire not to screw up with another girl) he would propably retallitate at the word "poop". Call the girl lucky.

 

By the look of it Shallan seems more hormonal than Adolin... I mean, he does have some self-control... When it was in public? I recall the one time in her room after she returned form the chasms and one time in Urithiru... By the way, I regret both times were from Shallan's PoV. I'd love to see Adolin's perspective on this...

 

They'll screw up but work it out in the end... Happy end, bunch of children and so on

 

 

Oh... I thought Navani knew... My mistake then. I seemed to recall her knowing, but I must have been hallucinating it.

 

Adolin has intuition, some sort of 6th sense that gives him a vibe of right and wrong about people and events. He has it too when he meets Eshonai. His first reaction is that something is terribly terribly wrong. Something feels off. Sometimes is not right about Eshonai, but he dismisses his own feeling.

 

I think he sensed something was off with Kaladin, but he couldn't guess or figure it out. Once he found out, he was happy he has been right all along.

 

Shallan... Well, I think his intuition must turn itself off when he gets too emotionally involved.

 

True, I've forgotten Eshonai... As for Kaladin - when Adolin finally took a step towards bettering (is that even a word?) the relations between them, he still didn't know what's up with Kal, he simply came to the conclusion that whatever is this, it doesn't truly matter and it's alright to trust Kaladin. I think he insinuated something like this when they were talking in the prison...

 

In Shallan's case... Let's blame the feelings of a young man who wants true love... Good for him that Kaladin was wrong and Shallan was no assasin. Otehrwise things would go badly

 

 

I think you are right in saying Renarin, at the very least, admires Kaladin. I also think he is trying to be his own person and he is trying to move away from his family's secure but overbearing arms.

 

10-11 is not so young... Illumination is the mastery of light to create illusions. It is possible a child that age manage to pull it of, but I doubt that is the only thing you can do with it... Lift. I dunno. I get she acted on instinct, but I still get the feeling healing someone should be harder, which is why I am very keen to see Renarin use this particular power of his.

 

Agree about Renarin. He's a big boy and he wants to prove that to his family...

 

Shallan at the age of 11 (when she killed her mother) had already achieved mastery in lightweaving - she even knew how to create sound. I think she was a bit younger when she learned how to do this. Genius kid I say... Not that Lift is so much better. What is she? 12 or 13? Another genius kid - but I guess some of her abilities she had to learn simply in order to survive.

 

Maybe Progression is triggered by a true need. Like, Renarin tries and tries but cannot get it right and then his brother almost dies and Renarin is the only one able to save him so he does? I have no idea how this works. Wyndle told Lift that Progression is harder to learn than Abrasion (at least I understood him so), yet we know that she trained Abrasion (again, Wyndle said so) but Progression was just... She needed it so she used it. I don't need to be Adolin to sense that something is kind of off about this...

 

 

Wait till you get to the integrals in the Z-domain, those were quite space .... or the numeric stuff which I'll admit is actually useful to know. Transfer functions are a must for an electronical engineer although nobody was using them on an every day basis at my company.... You rarely sit in front of a circuit and try to get its equation... We were mostly concerned by "what will happen to the unit and the next one if this resistor pathetically crashes?"  Every thing that is linear algebra is also quite used. Apart from that well... As an antenna engineer (changed field on the market), I do use the equation of the parabola and the ellipsoid on a regular basis , the logarithm is my every day cup of tea  :ph34r: Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division are also very widely used :ph34r: :ph34r: and complex numbers :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:  You see, very hardcore stuff :ph34r:

 

Well, one thing is what will be useful and other what we need to know to get a degree in the first place I swear at least one subject we take is made solely for the sake of failing as many students as possible...

 

 

Your mom's analysis was interesting. I never made the parallel with Eowyn in LoTR. It is true her act of bravery was overshadowed by anything done by Aragorn.

 

 Dalinar was fighting without his plate for what, the first time in the last 30 years? He is an aging man into his fifties and admitted not being as quick as he recalled. It is true he seemed to have had help from his bond when fighting Szeth as he was able to move quickly and beautifully, beyond possible means. Adolin, a young man in his early twenties, most likely very quick had a hard time just landing a blow.

 

We don't know what happened between Szeth and Adolin before he was trust into the ground. We know Adolin saw Szeth and next he was crashing to the ground. One of his leg plate was destroyed and his breastplate was shattered. Szeth did that, but we do not know how. We do not know if they actually exchange blows or if Adolin was simply thrown out in the sky, trashed down a few times to break the plate before his final landing next to Dalinar. By the state of him, I'd wager the second.

 

Oh all right. I did misunderstood you. They do deserve their raise

 

I think if Szeth had wanted to kill Adolin, he would have, but he purposely made him crash right next to Dalinar. I took it as a warning: here's your son, he's alive, now come and fight me. I did not get Adolin interrupted Szeth, I understood Szeth came willingly to Adolin, to take him out of the fight and to draw Dalinar out. I think Szeth was hoping to kill Dalinar in a fair fight. Remember how he always ranted people died because they were poor fighter? I think he was hoping Dalinar would turn out being better. He wanted to fight Dalinar, not just to kill him.

 

I have a feeling she used that particular parallel because she knows that Eowyn is my very favourite character from LotR (closely followed by Merry and Pippin) But I think she meant it as Eowyn killed the Nazgul but she didn't win the battle and same for Kaladin - he killed Szeth but he didn't win the battle. On it's own both those events would mean nothing if not for the efforts of others.

 

And I see your point in Szeth wanting a fight with Dalinar. I mostly agree but I still don't think that he came willingly to Adolin. He wanted to go straightly to Dalinar but Adolin interrupted him. But why no spectacular entrance? Why he was sneaking around? Did he want to fight Dalinar only and not to raise suspicions so nobody else would attack him and therefore force him to kill more people?

 

 

• Kaladin/Veil

 

Nice one, but I don't think that Kaladin would actually see something familiar in Veil. But Shallan would struggle to make sure she does nothing to catch his suspicions about her double identity...

 

 

• Adolin/Veil

 

I think Adolin would immediately be suspicious of Veil as soon as he met her. He would sense something is off with her. He's more likely than Kaladin to see something familiar in her. I'm not convinced he would start falling for Veil, but he would make a connection that Veil acts/speaks a bit like Shallan.

 

 

• Renarin/Veil

Oh, I love this one. I want this to happen - Renarin finding out Shallan's secret. He would propably try to tell someone, maybe Adolin, but he would be dismissed. Then he could confront Shallan and she would beg him not to reveal her secret, explaining why exactly she must keep doing this... That's actually what I think Truthwatchers do - they find out what others try to hide.

 

 

• Mraize/Veil

While I have troubles seeing this relationship work out anyhow, I agree with the otehr things you mentioned here. The conflict of loyalities, Shallan and Veil becoming more separate... That's very interesting. And yet I don't see Mraize as such kind of person...

 

Overall, Feather, very interesting ideas Some of them I'd really love to see in canon

[Guest]

I didn't say it was one of her greatest accomplishments. It was just one of many things that went well for her. She started talking about excrements at the first date and still had a second one? I have a hard time buying this, I get she was genuine, but I honestly... If Adolin didn't simply want to keep a relationship for the sake of it (later he did really fall for Shallan, but I think that in the beginning it was only his desire not to screw up with another girl) he would propably retallitate at the word "poop". Call the girl lucky.

 

The talk about excrement was epic! I laugh so much during this scene my ribs hurt... An days later, I was still laughing...   Adolin did not fall for it because he was desperate, but because she offered him what he craved for without knowing: authenticity. His reaction was completely genuine: his laugh was authentic. She did get to him this way: she pulled at his inner self, the one part of him he rarely lets out. Sure, she was lucky in a way it would have probably failed with any other man... Truth is Adolin enjoyed this first date and got completely enthralled by her. She got him, hard, with this simple word. Funny thing.

 

 

 

By the look of it Shallan seems more hormonal than Adolin... I mean, he does have some self-control... When it was in public? I recall the one time in her room after she returned form the chasms and one time in Urithiru... By the way, I regret both times were from Shallan's PoV. I'd love to see Adolin's perspective on this...

 

She kissed him during the walk to see a dead chasmfiend.... She give him a quick kiss on the cheek and he got thrown all over, giving the high five to Kaladin and blushing like an idiot Alright, it was not a real deep kiss, but it was much more than Aletki usually allow themselves too.

 

Shallan is Veden. I gathered they are not as prude and more open on such things... but yeah, she must be hormonal as well...    It's just I have a very hard time believing Adolin isn't... Most of the young men his age I have met thought a lot about such things... to say the least Adolin does have admirable self control, but I keep thinking he'll fall for it, eventually :ph34r:

 

I am dying to see his POV during these scenes... :ph34r:

 

 

True, I've forgotten Eshonai... As for Kaladin - when Adolin finally took a step towards bettering (is that even a word?) the relations between them, he still didn't know what's up with Kal, he simply came to the conclusion that whatever is this, it doesn't truly matter and it's alright to trust Kaladin. I think he insinuated something like this when they were talking in the prison...

 

In Shallan's case... Let's blame the feelings of a young man who wants true love... Good for him that Kaladin was wrong and Shallan was no assasin. Otehrwise things would go badly

 

Adolin sided with Kal on the day he decided that despite him hiding things, he was on his side and that sufficed him.

 

Adolin is such the hopeless romantic... If Shallan were an assassin, she would have killed him a thousand times already

 

 

Shallan at the age of 11 (when she killed her mother) had already achieved mastery in lightweaving - she even knew how to create sound. I think she was a bit younger when she learned how to do this. Genius kid I say... Not that Lift is so much better. What is she? 12 or 13? Another genius kid - but I guess some of her abilities she had to learn simply in order to survive.

 

Maybe Progression is triggered by a true need. Like, Renarin tries and tries but cannot get it right and then his brother almost dies and Renarin is the only one able to save him so he does? I have no idea how this works. Wyndle told Lift that Progression is harder to learn than Abrasion (at least I understood him so), yet we know that she trained Abrasion (again, Wyndle said so) but Progression was just... She needed it so she used it. I don't need to be Adolin to sense that something is kind of off about this...

 

I agree something is indeed of. So far, surgebinding look like such an easy skill to pick on. The only one we have truly seen struggling with it is Jasnah. This is kind of a let down for me as I would expect mastery demands more time and practice then what we are led to believe. Windle did say healing with Progression demanded practice and skill, which is why I was shocked Lift pulled it of this easily.

 

 

Well, one thing is what will be useful and other what we need to know to get a degree in the first place I swear at least one subject we take is made solely for the sake of failing as many students as possible...

 

Hey, I know how you feel: I have been there

 

I sometimes felt as if they were trying to push through my skull an infinite amount of knowledge of limited use... I mean, do you really need to visualized the flow of electron through a PNP (or NPN) junction to understand how to use a transistor? Sadly, the answer is no However, you do need to know what happens if you pull something off or how to get your stuff to work. Practical stuff that is.

 

 

I have a feeling she used that particular parallel because she knows that Eowyn is my very favourite character from LotR (closely followed by Merry and Pippin) But I think she meant it as Eowyn killed the Nazgul but she didn't win the battle and same for Kaladin - he killed Szeth but he didn't win the battle. On it's own both those events would mean nothing if not for the efforts of others.

 

And I see your point in Szeth wanting a fight with Dalinar. I mostly agree but I still don't think that he came willingly to Adolin. He wanted to go straightly to Dalinar but Adolin interrupted him. But why no spectacular entrance? Why he was sneaking around? Did he want to fight Dalinar only and not to raise suspicions so nobody else would attack him and therefore force him to kill more people?

 

My favorite character was Boromir. I guess you are not surprised :ph34r: I am still mad he got killed :ph34r:

 

But wasn't he walking towards Adolin when he was spotted? I need to re-read this scene, but I always gathered he was going for Adolin first.

[Pathfinder]

I would just like to add the first phone conversation I had with my girlfriend involved us talking about death (we are not goth/morbid), and weird stories involving bums in NYC (one involving a guy stopping a subway car because he decided to strip completely naked and sing while he walked down the station, and the other involving her way to her bus home blocked by a guy laying on the floor having a one man party). At the end of the phone conversation, she said she had never laughed so much in her life, we are still very much together, and still very much in love. So excrement subject matter doesn't necesarily mean anything. I think he was attracted to her because she was so utterly different than anything he was used to. Every other girl caused him to just go through the motions, but Shallan made him go "Sure um...wait you said what?!" lol. Personally when a woman is unique and original, that grabs my attention first no matter how hot/attractive anyone else is lol. 

[Guest]

I would just like to add the first phone conversation I had with my girlfriend involved us talking about death (we are not goth/morbid), and weird stories involving bums in NYC (one involving a guy stopping a subway car because he decided to strip completely naked and sing while he walked down the station, and the other involving her way to her bus home blocked by a guy laying on the floor having a one man party). At the end of the phone conversation, she said she had never laughed so much in her life, we are still very much together, and still very much in love. So excrement subject matter doesn't necesarily mean anything. I think he was attracted to her because she was so utterly different than anything he was used to. Every other girl caused him to just go through the motions, but Shallan made him go "Sure um...wait you said what?!" lol. Personally when a woman is unique and original, that grabs my attention first no matter how hot/attractive anyone else is lol. 

 

Good one!

 

The first time my husband and I bonded, we were simply passing time (we were waiting for some friends) watching old generics for cartoons from our childhood on the Internet... We sing and laugh the whole time. Not a very deep conversation subject, but it got us closer (or I should say it made us notice the other even existed as we didn't think of each other in such ways before).

 

During our first phone conversation, we talked for over an hour about.... his mother's cats :ph34r: Quite lame I would say. I am pretty sure if anyone were to write a book on how to lose a guy in ten ridiculous conversation topics: talking about one's mother's cats would make the cut. And yet it worked. Somehow.

 

You are right in saying it is not the talked subject that matters for a first date, but the chemistry between the individuals and their capacity to be themselves around each other. For me, Shallan and Adolin passed the test as the emotions they expressed were genuine: misplaced curiosity for Shallan and disarming honesty for Adolin. I think authenticity was the key here. I bodes well they are able to laugh about the silliest of subjects because it means they are comfortable with each other, even if Shallan still has to open up about her past and sort out her true feelings.

Edited November 17, 2014 by maxal

[DeployParachute]

So I've been following maxal's and Kyat's back and forth on this topic, and there was such good content, I of course felt compelled to chime in.  Wow...it's actually been awhile, anyway, here goes:

 

1. Dalinar's trust in Kaladin.  I can understand to a degree why some would find it dubious that Dalinar would place such a high level of trust in someone he had never met, but to claim it was reckless and irresponsible?  I instead would argue that Dalinar really didn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter.  I try to place myself in his position and see things how he must have seen them, and in fact I feel this is easy to do given all of the book text made available to us.  WoR is filled with all kinds of reasons why Dalinar put Kaladin in charge of his personal guard and the bridgeman, and many of them are very good.  Here he is at the end of WoK having just survived the biggest betrayal he's ever suffered (to our knowledge) that resulted in the slaughtering of the vast majority of his experienced soldiers and officers at the hands of a man he thought was his dearest friend.  He now has the extremely difficult task of determining who is left for him to trust with the protection of himself, his family, and his king, and there is a high likelihood of further betrayal and assassination attempts.  So, when you are now working with extremely limited resources in manpower, and especially manpower that you can trust, what would be better than to utilize the skills of a man who had risked his life and those of his men to pull you out of the fire at great personal risk to themselves(with very little chance of success I might add).  Perhaps Dalinar would have chosen differently if he had some better alternatives, but really, what other options were there?  Offering Kaladin the position, as well as the 1000 bridgemen a place in his army was the best choice to be made to increase his likelihood of survival and success despite the "risks" that came inherent with placing such trust in Kaladin.  And concerning trusting in Kaladin's abilities regarding training bridgemen into being competent soldiers?  Did Kaladin not just demonstrate his ability to do that with bridge 4?  Kaladin took these men from a hopeless situation, and helped them find their way back to purpose and unity, he helped them become men again.  Not only did he do that, but he also inspired them to be better than they could be as individuals, and trained them to work as a fighting unit that could hold a bridge against a horde of Parshendi!  So maybe Dalinar recognizes that training a group of 35 odd men is not on the same scale as training a 1000, but again, what other option does he have?  He literally just purchased the freedom of all of these men, and offered them a place in his army should they want, but where else does he get the leadership resources to train them the way they need to be trained?  All of his own experienced officers and sergeants (as he said so himself) are needed to shoring up his own fresh recruits.  Plus, if you think about it, it's not like he had a whole lot to lose compared to the big benefits he could reap from that gamble.  If the bridgeman army failed, he only wasted money, which was not as precious to him as much as time was. Dalinar had pretty solid evidence in seeing what Kaladin did with bridge 4 to believe that if anyone was capable of turning helpless hopeless slaves into a solid fighting force, it would be Kaladin.  

TL;DR:  I don't understand your phrases going back and forth claiming that Dalinar's trust in Kaladin being outright irresponsible.  Being in his position, he made the best possible choices available to him at the time, both in maximizing his "winnings" and minimizing his "risks".  But again, just my opinion.

 

2.  Kaladin's quick mastery of the Gravity surge vs Shallan's struggle with Lightweaving.  Maybe it is just my own interpretation of the books, but I see Lightweaving as a vastly more difficult skill to learn and master.  Shallan has to learn how to shape the images, she has to learn how to make them move, she has to learn that she is able to even bind it to Pattern for a time.  Plus, Shallan had to do all of this while likely being hampered by her own mental blocks surrounding her abilities.  There is much evidence in the text that Pattern suggests that Shallan's younger self (pre-carpet once white) was a much greater master at the surge.  Now, she has to draw the images out just to get them to work.  All Kaladin had to technicallly "learn" was how to orient gravity in a different direction.  The rest for him was practicing getting adjusted from one orientation to another, and to string them together.  Again, no new "learning" or discovery really, just practicing at changing the direction of gravity's pull on himself, and to me this just doesn't appear to require as much thought or reflection as Shallan's Lightweaving.  

 

Anyway, that's all for me now, just felt compelled to add to the discussion

[Kyats Rani she/her]

She kissed him during the walk to see a dead chasmfiend.... She give him a quick kiss on the cheek and he got thrown all over, giving the high five to Kaladin and blushing like an idiot Alright, it was not a real deep kiss, but it was much more than Aletki usually allow themselves too.

 

Shallan is Veden. I gathered they are not as prude and more open on such things... but yeah, she must be hormonal as well...    It's just I have a very hard time believing Adolin isn't... Most of the young men his age I have met thought a lot about such things... to say the least Adolin does have admirable self control, but I keep thinking he'll fall for it, eventually :ph34r:

 

I am dying to see his POV during these scenes... :ph34r:

 

Ok, now I recall the scene, but I don't remember any high-fives. I never said Adolin isn't hormonal by this point, I'd very surprised if he weren't (no credibility at all). I only say that he has some amazing self-control. Yet... But with him being unaccustomed to such things and having no experience whatsoever, he kind of reminds me of Susebron, and he caught up pretty quickly :ph34r:

 

 

Adolin sided with Kal on the day he decided that despite him hiding things, he was on his side and that sufficed him.

 

Adolin is such the hopeless romantic... If Shallan were an assassin, she would have killed him a thousand times already

 

Yup, that's what I meant.

 

 

I agree something is indeed of. So far, surgebinding look like such an easy skill to pick on. The only one we have truly seen struggling with it is Jasnah. This is kind of a let down for me as I would expect mastery demands more time and practice then what we are led to believe. Windle did say healing with Progression demanded practice and skill, which is why I was shocked Lift pulled it of this easily.

 

I can't wait to see how it went for other Radiants. Then I'll count how many of them managed to pick up their skills with little to no effort and how many of them struggled (by now - Kaladin and Lift are in the first group, Renarin unknown, on Shallan I'm not so sure and Dalinar seems also part of the first group, only Jasnah in the second one). Basing on that I will try to decide whether there are some geniuses among the Radiants or it's just rather common to learn Surges immediately. Anyway, right now I have no idea what to make of it.

 

 

Hey, I know how you feel: I have been there

 

I sometimes felt as if they were trying to push through my skull an infinite amount of knowledge of limited use... I mean, do you really need to visualized the flow of electron through a PNP (or NPN) junction to understand how to use a transistor? Sadly, the answer is no However, you do need to know what happens if you pull something off or how to get your stuff to work. Practical stuff that is.

 

That's more or less how our measurement course looks like - lectures are all some hard formulas and theories, in the laboratory we go simply "what happens if I push this button? what will change if I put the cable here and not in the other hole?"...

 

 

My favorite character was Boromir. I guess you are not surprised :ph34r: I am still mad he got killed :ph34r:

 

But wasn't he walking towards Adolin when he was spotted? I need to re-read this scene, but I always gathered he was going for Adolin first.

 

Yup, I'm not surprised... Boromir is I think the most misunderstood character in LotR. When I first read the book (I was only 7, so it wasn't very valid opinion) I thought he was a jerk. Now, after 11 years and +- 8 rereads, I see him in a different light, much better one. He made mistakes but he wanted to do well for his people. Aragorn also wasn't too fair on him... Funny thing is that my favourite characters stayed exactly the same over the years, but for slightly different reason (as a kid I liked Merry and Pippin because they were funny, later I came to see them both as brave and determined characters who are also good role-models... but of course they're still funny too ).

 

I had a feeling that Szeth was walking through the battlefield, Adolin spotted him, thought him to be a messanger and went to him to ask himfor news  

 

 

I would just like to add the first phone conversation I had with my girlfriend involved us talking about death (we are not goth/morbid), and weird stories involving bums in NYC (one involving a guy stopping a subway car because he decided to strip completely naked and sing while he walked down the station, and the other involving her way to her bus home blocked by a guy laying on the floor having a one man party). At the end of the phone conversation, she said she had never laughed so much in her life, we are still very much together, and still very much in love. So excrement subject matter doesn't necesarily mean anything. I think he was attracted to her because she was so utterly different than anything he was used to. Every other girl caused him to just go through the motions, but Shallan made him go "Sure um...wait you said what?!" lol. Personally when a woman is unique and original, that grabs my attention first no matter how hot/attractive anyone else is lol. 

 

Good one!

 

The first time my husband and I bonded, we were simply passing time (we were waiting for some friends) watching old generics for cartoons from our childhood on the Internet... We sing and laugh the whole time. Not a very deep conversation subject, but it got us closer (or I should say it made us notice the other even existed as we didn't think of each other in such ways before).

 

During our first phone conversation, we talked for over an hour about.... his mother's cats :ph34r: Quite lame I would say. I am pretty sure if anyone were to write a book on how to lose a guy in ten ridiculous conversation topics: talking about one's mother's cats would make the cut. And yet it worked. Somehow.

 

You are right in saying it is not the talked subject that matters for a first date, but the chemistry between the individuals and their capacity to be themselves around each other. For me, Shallan and Adolin passed the test as the emotions they expressed were genuine: misplaced curiosity for Shallan and disarming honesty for Adolin. I think authenticity was the key here. I bodes well they are able to laugh about the silliest of subjects because it means they are comfortable with each other, even if Shallan still has to open up about her past and sort out her true feelings.

 

Well, I see nothing wrong with talking about cats (I tend to do it quite much...) :ph34r:  I guess I'll have to take your words on this. I have exactly no experience with romantic relationships (I'm kind of hopeless like that ) so I'm willing to believe people who actually know what they're talking about. But still, personally I would think a person who starts to talk about poop on a date kind of strange But I guess it did work for those two... Surprisingly...

 

 

...

(sorry for no clear quote, my post was already getting long)

 

1. I agree, this decision wasn't that bad considering circumstances. It's Dalinar behaviour later what is the matter of concern. maxal was right to point out the balcony "accident" - Kaladin's men were logically first ones to be suspicious about it, but Dalinar didn't even consider this possibility. It's things like that what is wrong about Dalinar's attitude.

 

2. That's an interesting take. Maybe Shallan would really have much less problems if she wasn't afraid that finding answers would unlock her memories... As for Kaladin - that's actually right. As soon as he figured out how to change the direction of gravity, all he had to do was get used to this and fight his fear - this can be done in one night (of course with the right attitude and considerable amount of determination, which Kaladin definitely had). Later it was all about trying different things (partial lashings or multiple lashings - it was a matter of trial and error, he was simply doing things to find out what will happen). And he mentioned liking high places and feeling a connection to the wind ever since childhood - something that helped him while it couldn't help Shallan as she forced herself to surpass those memories.