boring rocks

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

So… [there was a warning but then this was moved. I THINK IM VERY CONFUSED RIGHT NOW IGNORE ME ITS SPOILER SAFE RN]

Spoiler

Talenelat’elin

His Honorblade

And the Willshaper Honorblade 

they both focus (one surge) on the manipulation of stone

But the Shin, who have them honorblades, are all about stone’s sacred nature (because, as Hoid indicates, they used stones from Ashyn to help them cross to Roshar). But Hoid also indicated that the stones didn’t actually have power.

My wonder is that, stone isn’t present as a magic in other areas of the cosmere. Roseite is from Aethers, and it’s a crystal growth. White Sand is actually the moss growing on the sand. Elantris and Mistborn focus on “keys” - these patterns used to focus power. (Type of metal - Attribute; Shape of Aon - Logic). And while Mistborn uses metal, the metal itself does not have power.

 

But in Stormlight, the Stones themselves have power. The Horneaters fled to the mountains, because the spren of the mountains were alive and apparently sentient.

Venli directly talked to the Stones of Urithiru

 

Some other Surges aren’t just Stormlight. Lightweaving, Regrowth, and Elsecalling have cosmere importance.

What I propose is this: the Surge (I forgor its name) was created entirely after the migration to Roshar by Shin perception of the spren in the stone.

Extending this, I think that other surges follow this, dividing them into a group of artificial surges and cosmere surges.

I have more but it’s more contrived and I gotta go.

ill add it in a bit 

Okay the rest has a tiny bit more explanation in one of my replies

these surges were modeled after Yolish magic.

However, these surges don’t fit Yolish magic.

List of the ones that directly align with microkinetic abilities:

1. Division (typical boom boom affiliation with Microkinesis)

2. Regrowth

3. Illumination

4. Elsecalling

While the others align with it, they are “cousins” - they have potential, but are not necessarily matches.

Which I think we can predict from these four power (these aren’t the actual language I think it uses [other than the ones we know])

Change - from Progression

Exist - from Illumination

Move - from Transportation (this makes sense given Stormlight’s intent) [to have life, something must be moving. Kaladin notes this in Shinovar when he remarks on the stationary plants]

Break - from Division (this one seems weak, but I thought about it. First it was end, but change covers that. Break from Adonalsium/whatever creator, become independent. Autonomy affiliation.)

 

back to the surges (what I said down there):

Dawnshard run-off. A mix of human perception and the pure tones of Roshar and the old magic.

But the manifestations of these surges, I think, depends on perception of the Radiant, and the Radiant Spren. As human perception of stone changed, the Spren remembered it, and the Surges manifested to fit that.

 

Edited November 20, 2025 by Sherma Main

[Guest]

im srry but my brain hurts looking at that

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

3 minutes ago, Sherma Main said:

So…

Talenelat’elin

His Honorblade

And the Willshaper Honorblade 

they both focus (one surge) on the manipulation of stone

But the Shin, who have them honorblades, are all about stone’s sacred nature (because, as Hoid indicates, they used stones from Ashyn to help them cross to Roshar). But Hoid also indicated that the stones didn’t actually have power.

My wonder is that, stone isn’t present as a magic in other areas of the cosmere. Roseite is from Aethers, and it’s a crystal growth. White Sand is actually the moss growing on the sand. Elantris and Mistborn focus on “keys” - these patterns used to focus power. (Type of metal - Attribute; Shape of Aon - Logic). And while Mistborn uses metal, the metal itself does not have power.

 

But in Stormlight, the Stones themselves have power. The Horneaters fled to the mountains, because the spren of the mountains were alive and apparently sentient.

Venli directly talked to the Stones of Urithiru

 

Some other Surges aren’t just Stormlight. Lightweaving, Regrowth, and Elsecalling have cosmere importance.

What I propose is this: the Surge (I forgor its name) was created entirely after the migration to Roshar by Shin perception of the spren in the stone.

Extending this, I think that other surges follow this, dividing them into a group of artificial surges and cosmere surges.

I have more but it’s more contrived and I gotta go.

ill add it in a bit 

So, some fact checking here: The stones that were brought from Alaswha did not magically help with the transition, but were brought across as religious/cultural artifacts. The Stone was created as a spren on Roshar by Adonalsium when Roshar itself was being created or some short time thereafter. The stones at Urithiru proved not to be special; the Stone was able to communicate from many different stones all across Roshar. The Surges of Lightweaving and Regrowth that you mention are not necessarily Surges in other magic systems, but the same effect (illusions, healing, etc.) achieved through different magical means. The Surges were originally unrestricted (to an extent) when used by the to-be Heralds on Alaswha, and modelled after microkinesis from Yolen, which may have potentially served as a model that other Shards used when constructing magic systems, leading to some of the similarities that you mentioned. The Surges then being divided into the ten that we see was not an effect of perception, but an act of Honor in order to restrict the power of Surgebinders and prevent another situation like what occurred on Alaswha. However, the division did not occur randomly, and the Surges follow both the model of microkinesis and seemingly the natural forces of physics. 

It is at this point in my writing that Nissa of Scadrial replied, so I will mention that I am sorry that your brain hurts. 

Back to the topic at hand, you can see why it is logical that some other magic systems would produce similar effects or follow a similar pattern, but not in the way that you are thinking. 

I believe the Surge that you are referencing is Cohesion. This is a section of the Coppermind on it that I found relevant: 

Quote

Stoneshaping: This ability manipulates the forces that bind axi together. It is considered a cousin to microkinesis, an Invested Art from Yolen that also manipulated axi, though Honor placed strict limits on Stoneshaping to prevent it from enabling the level of destruction possible with microkinesis. While in use, a Surgebinder can mold stone (or other materials) as if it were clay without the use of heat. Stone is able to sense the Intent of the Surgebinder and their past, and even show or explain events from the past via Stoneshaping. Though stone tends to be the most difficult to Soulcast, it will easily obey through Cohesion. Through this, Surgebinders are able to communicate with the stones.

 

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

22 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

So, some fact checking here: The stones that were brought from Alaswha did not magically help with the transition, but were brought across as religious/cultural artifacts. The Stone was created as a spren on Roshar by Adonalsium when Roshar itself was being created or some short time thereafter. The stones at Urithiru proved not to be special; the Stone was able to communicate from many different stones all across Roshar. The Surges of Lightweaving and Regrowth that you mention are not necessarily Surges in other magic systems, but the same effect (illusions, healing, etc.) achieved through different magical means. The Surges were originally unrestricted (to an extent) when used by the to-be Heralds on Alaswha, and modelled after microkinesis from Yolen, which may have potentially served as a model that other Shards used when constructing magic systems, leading to some of the similarities that you mentioned. The Surges then being divided into the ten that we see was not an effect of perception, but an act of Honor in order to restrict the power of Surgebinders and prevent another situation like what occurred on Alaswha. However, the division did not occur randomly, and the Surges follow both the model of microkinesis and seemingly the natural forces of physics. 

It is at this point in my writing that Nissa of Scadrial replied, so I will mention that I am sorry that your brain hurts. 

Back to the topic at hand, you can see why it is logical that some other magic systems would produce similar effects or follow a similar pattern, but not in the way that you are thinking. 

I believe the Surge that you are referencing is Cohesion. This is a section of the Coppermind on it that I found relevant: 

 

Okay, imma organize my writing to reply to that bc I need organization on mobile

not cuz it’s an attack

and spoilers for length

Spoiler

1. (Stones have no magic) yeah - that’s part of the point. Not magical. But they were used as cognitive anchors (no actual invested nature), I thought. I’ll have to reread that scene, but it doesn’t change my theory which I still need to complete cuz right now I say nothing

2. (Stone was created by Adonalsium) Ah, okay. Hhm. See. I address this later, but you’ll have to look for it. I talk about the Wind.

3. (Stones at Urithiru aren’t special) - I’m not implying that the individual stones are special, rather that an embodiment of stone in general is.

4. (Surges aren’t actual surges) Yeah ik I just didn’t have another way to refer to Yolish magic (a sort of baseline) 

5. (Unrestricted surges) My point is more that the surges were molded by Rosharan perception since the migration, which I don’t know if I ever got to in the actual message.

6. (Surges are ten bc Honor) That’s not the point I’m getting at. I’m aware of the significance of 10. I’m rather talking about the nature of these individual surges and how they manifest. (Like, cohesion, why does it specifically manifest in stone? Kalak hints that it can be used on other stuff, so why stone?)

Yeah

 

Anyways, to the rest of my argument:

Yes, these surges were modeled after Yolish magic.

However, these surges don’t fit Yolish magic.

List of the ones that directly align with microkinetic abilities:

1. Division (typical boom boom affiliation with Microkinesis)

2. Regrowth

3. Illumination

4. Elsecalling

While the others align with it, they are “cousins” - they have potential, but are not necessarily matches.

 

And there is a very important number there. BRIDGE FOUR

no actually I’m talking about four Dawnshards.

 

Dragonsteel Prime spoilers:

Spoiler

Topaz (wit), was able to develop an insane infinity for regrowth (named progression) through his Dawnshard.

But he was absolutely incompetent at other things.

Jerrick was great at division, had the boom boom potential hints

then the other person it’s been a while was specifically good at lightweaving.

I think it’s entirely reasonable that Transportation is a Microkinetic power.

So these microkinetic potentials actually closely mirror the dawnshards - and while their nature change, it seems to be marginally similar.

So given the above information, these four microkinetic affinities relate to the dawnshards, and TIE IN MY OTHER CRACKPOT THEORY (in a wee bit)

these dawnshards, when used, forced whatever power being used to their intents

Which I think we can predict from these four power (these aren’t the actual language I think it uses [other than the ones we know])

Change - from Progression

Exist - from Illumination

Move - from Transportation (this makes sense given Stormlight’s intent) [to have life, something must be moving. Kaladin notes this in Shinovar when he remarks on the stationary plants]

Break - from Division (this one seems weak, but I thought about it. First it was end, but change covers that. Break from Adonalsium/whatever creator, become independent. Autonomy affiliation.). I actually just reread a scene where Sando describes Division, and that description does fit this.

And given the previous theory about each shard having the intent of two dawnshards,

It might be Honor is “Move, Exist” or “Exist, Move”, while Virtuosity might be the other pair.

It might be preservation is “Exist, Exist”, while Ruin is “Break, Break”, because Change seems to generally be positive change (growth)

Importantly, Sando Brando indicates that one Dawnshard is different from the others. I think that one could be Break, because it seems that it’s the one most closely related to destruction - boom boom microkinetic affiliation, yes? The guy in Dragonsteel was an abnormality in his Microkinesis.

 

and then the tie in another note I thought was cool

The Dawnshards seem to work by bending whatever they touch to their intent. Why was Aux’s “body” destroyed? It was bent to the intent of Exist. (I am aware I am remembering that wrong shhh) And when things embody these intents, that form of investiture is purer, more powerful. That’s why that sort of power is more common across the cosmere, and why Surgebinding is so powerful. 
 

 

Anyways back to surgebinding

If four are from Dawnshards, the others are like

Dawnshard run-off. A mix of human perception and the pure tones of Roshar and the old magic.

But the manifestations of these surges, I think, depends on perception of the Radiant, and the Radiant Spren. As human perception of stone changed, the Spren remembered it, and the Surges manifested to fit that.
 

I think the old magic actually played a large role in this

Because based on the words talking about how the Wind changed in the epigraphs, and how the Wind talked in the chapters, the old magic is very very dependent on human/shardic perception. The Wind couldn’t talk until after Rodium died, but cited human perception of it at the reason for this - they thought of the wind, as the storms, as the enemy.

And the Nightwatcher was specifically changed to nooot change based on human perception.

And the Stones grew silent at around the time the tower was abandoned. (Please fact check that.)

Im just saying in this part that the surges, and everything in Roshar is very dependent on perception, even more than it seems in the books.

and I think I’m done maybe

ill add some of this to my og post for people that are just looking at that.

I was about to post this but then the shard crashed

and then I was going to edit it to make this make sense / remove some gaps in my argument but I forgor them now

and then I thought I had posted this but apparently not??!!??!!!

*skull emoji*

@#1 Taln Fan Hey I meant to move this over to general cosmere once I started talking about that stuff

but then I forgor

so I need help!

Edited November 20, 2025 by Sherma Main

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

2 hours ago, Sherma Main said:

Okay, imma organize my writing to reply to that bc I need organization on mobile

not cuz it’s an attack

and spoilers for length

  Hide contents

1. (Stones have no magic) yeah - that’s part of the point. Not magical. But they were used as cognitive anchors (no actual invested nature), I thought. I’ll have to reread that scene, but it doesn’t change my theory which I still need to complete cuz right now I say nothing

2. (Stone was created by Adonalsium) Ah, okay. Hhm. See. I address this later, but you’ll have to look for it. I talk about the Wind.

3. (Stones at Urithiru aren’t special) - I’m not implying that the individual stones are special, rather that an embodiment of stone in general is.

4. (Surges aren’t actual surges) Yeah ik I just didn’t have another way to refer to Yolish magic (a sort of baseline) 

5. (Unrestricted surges) My point is more that the surges were molded by Rosharan perception since the migration, which I don’t know if I ever got to in the actual message.

6. (Surges are ten bc Honor) That’s not the point I’m getting at. I’m aware of the significance of 10. I’m rather talking about the nature of these individual surges and how they manifest. (Like, cohesion, why does it specifically manifest in stone? Kalak hints that it can be used on other stuff, so why stone?)

Yeah

 

Anyways, to the rest of my argument:

Yes, these surges were modeled after Yolish magic.

However, these surges don’t fit Yolish magic.

List of the ones that directly align with microkinetic abilities:

1. Division (typical boom boom affiliation with Microkinesis)

2. Regrowth

3. Illumination

4. Elsecalling

While the others align with it, they are “cousins” - they have potential, but are not necessarily matches.

 

And there is a very important number there. BRIDGE FOUR

no actually I’m talking about four Dawnshards.

 

Dragonsteel Prime spoilers:

  Hide contents

Topaz (wit), was able to develop an insane infinity for regrowth (named progression) through his Dawnshard.

But he was absolutely incompetent at other things.

Jerrick was great at division, had the boom boom potential hints

then the other person it’s been a while was specifically good at lightweaving.

I think it’s entirely reasonable that Transportation is a Microkinetic power.

So these microkinetic potentials actually closely mirror the dawnshards - and while their nature change, it seems to be marginally similar.

So given the above information, these four microkinetic affinities relate to the dawnshards, and TIE IN MY OTHER CRACKPOT THEORY (in a wee bit)

these dawnshards, when used, forced whatever power being used to their intents

Which I think we can predict from these four power (these aren’t the actual language I think it uses [other than the ones we know])

Change - from Progression

Exist - from Illumination

Move - from Transportation (this makes sense given Stormlight’s intent) [to have life, something must be moving. Kaladin notes this in Shinovar when he remarks on the stationary plants]

Break - from Division (this one seems weak, but I thought about it. First it was end, but change covers that. Break from Adonalsium/whatever creator, become independent. Autonomy affiliation.). I actually just reread a scene where Sando describes Division, and that description does fit this.

And given the previous theory about each shard having the intent of two dawnshards,

It might be Honor is “Move, Exist” or “Exist, Move”, while Virtuosity might be the other pair.

It might be preservation is “Exist, Exist”, while Ruin is “Break, Break”, because Change seems to generally be positive change (growth)

Importantly, Sando Brando indicates that one Dawnshard is different from the others. I think that one could be Break, because it seems that it’s the one most closely related to destruction - boom boom microkinetic affiliation, yes? The guy in Dragonsteel was an abnormality in his Microkinesis.

 

and then the tie in another note I thought was cool

The Dawnshards seem to work by bending whatever they touch to their intent. Why was Aux’s “body” destroyed? It was bent to the intent of Exist. (I am aware I am remembering that wrong shhh)

 

Anyways back to surgebinding

If four are from Dawnshards, the others are like

Dawnshard run-off. A mix of human perception and the pure tones of Roshar and the old magic.

But the manifestations of these surges, I think, depends on perception of the Radiant, and the Radiant Spren. As human perception of stone changed, the Spren remembered it, and the Surges manifested to fit that.
 

I think the old magic actually played a large role in this

Because based on the words talking about how the Wind changed in the epigraphs, and how the Wind talked in the chapters, the old magic is very very dependent on human/shardic perception. The Wind couldn’t talk until after Rodium died, but cited human perception of it at the reason for this - they thought of the wind, as the storms, as the enemy.

And the Nightwatcher was specifically changed to nooot change based on human perception.

And the Stones grew silent at around the time the tower was abandoned. (Please fact check that.)

Im just saying in this part that the surges, and everything in Roshar is very dependent on perception, even more than it seems in the books.

and I think I’m done maybe

ill add some of this to my og post for people that are just looking at that.

I was about to post this but then the shard crashed

and then I was going to edit it to make this make sense / remove some gaps in my argument but I forgor them now

and then I thought I had posted this but apparently not??!!??!!!

*skull emoji*

@#1 Taln Fan Hey I meant to move this over to general cosmere once I started talking about that stuff

but then I forgor

so I need help!

Ookay I see what you're getting at here. Most of my statements were for clarification, not necessarily to prove a point. The Surges having been influenced by Rosharan perspective is plausible, though I'm not sure there's evidence in the books to support that. As for why stone, my quick search on the coppermind says that other materials can be molded with Cohesion, though it is ambiguous as to whether we ever actually see this happen or why it isn't common. I know that the Fused brand that uses Cohesion usually passes through stone because it has a hard time moving through materials that were once living, like wood or fabric. Maybe a connection to Awakening there? Anyways, it is possible that Cohesion is used normally on stone as the most common non-living non-metal material in much of the same way. I do know that Cohesion was described as originally being the Surge that was closest to microkinesis, before Honor limited it to remove its destructive capabilities, so I would maybe swap it for Transportation on your list (if you want to keep the list 4 items long). 

As for microkinesis (DS')

Spoiler

The abilities of microkinesis seen in DS' Brandon has stated to be subject to change as he feels it was far too powerful. The "boom boom" ability as you called it is canonical, though not necessarily in the same way as it is seen in DS'. Also, another potentially relevant ability of Microkinesis: 

Quote

the.fulgid

My question, in regards to Dragonsteel, is: Is there a possibility that somebody with the ability of microkinesis can see the spiritweb and alter it according to their will?

Brandon Sanderson

This is, this is totally possible. But you have to remember this is pre-Shattering of Adonalsium. Dragonsteel is the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium... the whole book is before, the whole series... So there are lots of things going on there that are-- like you will-- yeah. But it’s not canon yet.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

Sounds a lot like Bondsmithing to me. 

I like the idea of the Shards being composed of two Dawnshard Intents each (Resonance!). The other two Commands you proposed seem reasonable to me, though Illumination does not seem like it would fit well with Exist. 

This part: 

2 hours ago, Sherma Main said:

And when things embody these intents, that form of investiture is purer, more powerful. That’s why that sort of power is more common across the cosmere, and why Surgebinding is so powerful. 

Your theorycrafting was kind of going in a lot of directions, but I think this is the core of your argument. I personally think that this is a neat idea, and would actually make a lot of sense (unless someone wants to tell me that I'm wrong here). 

I don't think we really know enough about the Old Magic to say how it could have affected the development of the Surges. It should be important to note that the spren are the ones giving the Radiants the two Surges, and have their own Intents (in a way--less so for the intelligent spren I would guess). Could these perhaps have played a role in shaping the Surges as well? 

I know that some of the Stone was used in the creation of the Sibling, so it would make sense to me that that was around the time it went silent. 

One other relevant thing I just found: When using Stoneshaping (Cohesion), the user Connects directly with the Stone spren. Ancient Singers used to be able to sing to the Stone to get it to mold to the shape that they wanted, very similar to modern Stoneshaping minus the singing part. Perhaps you are right in a way that the Stone, by doing this, somehow impacted how the Surge of Cohesion would turn out. 

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ashkaloda said:

Ookay I see what you're getting at here. Most of my statements were for clarification, not necessarily to prove a point. The Surges having been influenced by Rosharan perspective is plausible, though I'm not sure there's evidence in the books to support that. As for why stone, my quick search on the coppermind says that other materials can be molded with Cohesion, though it is ambiguous as to whether we ever actually see this happen or why it isn't common. I know that the Fused brand that uses Cohesion usually passes through stone because it has a hard time moving through materials that were once living, like wood or fabric. Maybe a connection to Awakening there? Anyways, it is possible that Cohesion is used normally on stone as the most common non-living non-metal material in much of the same way. I do know that Cohesion was described as originally being the Surge that was closest to microkinesis, before Honor limited it to remove its destructive capabilities, so I would maybe swap it for Transportation on your list (if you want to keep the list 4 items long). 

As for microkinesis (DS')

  Hide contents

The abilities of microkinesis seen in DS' Brandon has stated to be subject to change as he feels it was far too powerful. The "boom boom" ability as you called it is canonical, though not necessarily in the same way as it is seen in DS'. Also, another potentially relevant ability of Microkinesis: 

Sounds a lot like Bondsmithing to me. 

I like the idea of the Shards being composed of two Dawnshard Intents each (Resonance!). The other two Commands you proposed seem reasonable to me, though Illumination does not seem like it would fit well with Exist. 

This part: 

Your theorycrafting was kind of going in a lot of directions, but I think this is the core of your argument. I personally think that this is a neat idea, and would actually make a lot of sense (unless someone wants to tell me that I'm wrong here). 

I don't think we really know enough about the Old Magic to say how it could have affected the development of the Surges. It should be important to note that the spren are the ones giving the Radiants the two Surges, and have their own Intents (in a way--less so for the intelligent spren I would guess). Could these perhaps have played a role in shaping the Surges as well? 

I know that some of the Stone was used in the creation of the Sibling, so it would make sense to me that that was around the time it went silent. 

One other relevant thing I just found: When using Stoneshaping (Cohesion), the user Connects directly with the Stone spren. Ancient Singers used to be able to sing to the Stone to get it to mold to the shape that they wanted, very similar to modern Stoneshaping minus the singing part. Perhaps you are right in a way that the Stone, by doing this, somehow impacted how the Surge of Cohesion would turn out. 

Hhhmmmmmm

Illumination, I’d say, fits well with Exist. I don’t want to say Lightweaving, because it is also Truthwatching - tied to manifesting versions of the truth.

Lightweavers, though, are closely tied to creation. And they can put some (albeit limited) amount of matter into their creations, can make sound, etc.

I think… hmmm… if it were to be swapped, I’d say division? Transportation comes from Elsecalling, which is not just stormlight. I actually really like this one.

 
yeah my theorycrafting was disorganized bc I actually had like

two separate sessions of writing this out

 

Yeah, I was trying to get at the involvement of spren in the surges. Like, a Spren’s perception of a surge affects it.

 

 

Another thing that occurred to me. It’s short, I swear. Perception weakens investiture. (I say that as fact but it’s theory don’t worry). Example: Minor Spren vs Major spren. Minor Spren are much less powerful than major ones, but are much more varied, whereas the Major Spren have only ten varieties.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

1 hour ago, Sherma Main said:

Hhhmmmmmm

Illumination, I’d say, fits well with Exist. I don’t want to say Lightweaving, because it is also Truthwatching - tied to manifesting versions of the truth.

Lightweavers, though, are closely tied to creation. And they can put some (albeit limited) amount of matter into their creations, can make sound, etc.

I think… hmmm… if it were to be swapped, I’d say division? Transportation comes from Elsecalling, which is not just stormlight. I actually really like this one.

 
yeah my theorycrafting was disorganized bc I actually had like

two separate sessions of writing this out

 

Yeah, I was trying to get at the involvement of spren in the surges. Like, a Spren’s perception of a surge affects it.

 

 

Another thing that occurred to me. It’s short, I swear. Perception weakens investiture. (I say that as fact but it’s theory don’t worry). Example: Minor Spren vs Major spren. Minor Spren are much less powerful than major ones, but are much more varied, whereas the Major Spren have only ten varieties.

I'm not sure that's theory (the last line you said) rather than a natural result of how perception works. Makes sense to me. 

Ah okay I see what you're getting at with the Lightweaving. 

[Guest]

hurts. my. BRAIN.

[TheUnInvestedCremling he/him....]

i know right

lol