My new favorite secondary power for a mistborn... hint it is hemalurgic in nature

[DoctaDajman]

If a mistborn were spiked with the power of one of The Altered One's then I assume they would gain the passive ability. Even if they couldn't soulcast anything that wasn't piercing them or outside of their body this power would be incredible as an allomancer. 

Imagine being able to eat a bite of food and enjoy the taste only to swallow it and soulcast it into an allomantic metal. Your second plate of food could be strictly to reload a massive amount of allomantic metals and a single chunk of soulcast aluminum could be used to cleanse it at the end of each day before any sort of poisoning could take place. 

With how expensive bendalloy is shown to be and other hard to aquire metals this could be the winningest winner way of keeping ones self always burning and safe from suffering as a savant who cant get their fix... 

And if you get stabbed you can instantly turn the weapon into smoke as it first pierces your skin. 

Harvesting this spike may be difficult though. 

[Nalthian Customs Official]

Soulcasting with mistborn is a potent combination.  I think another big problem aside from getting the spike in the first place would be sourcing the Voidlight.  Even if Voidlight wouldn't be consumed with the passive ability, the mistborn would still need to get the initial infusion from somewhere, and unless you work for Odium, he probably is not giving that person any.  Additionally, the human physiology would likely make the Voidlight leak, so even if the passive ability itself does not consume the light, levels would still go down.  Bonding a Cryptic or Inkspren might be easier and grant more side benefits than just the surge.  

[DoctaDajman]

2 hours ago, Nalthian Customs Official said:

Soulcasting with mistborn is a potent combination.  I think another big problem aside from getting the spike in the first place would be sourcing the Voidlight.  Even if Voidlight wouldn't be consumed with the passive ability, the mistborn would still need to get the initial infusion from somewhere, and unless you work for Odium, he probably is not giving that person any.  Additionally, the human physiology would likely make the Voidlight leak, so even if the passive ability itself does not consume the light, levels would still go down.  Bonding a Cryptic or Inkspren might be easier and grant more side benefits than just the surge.  

But isnt that the point of passive? That it consumes no voidlight? From the coppermind. 

Spoiler

Unlike Radiants, however, Fannahn-im can use Transformation to soulcast any object that is even partially within their own bodies without expending Voidlight. This lets them freely purify their bodies and soulcast away any poisons, as well as soulcast the air in their lungs to breathe out toxic gas offensively. They can also use free Transformation like this on any object that pierces partly into their own body, like weapons, into a harmless essence, like smoke.^[59]

I definately agree that becoming a radiant would be more powerful. I was just thinking that this free use of the surge would be perfect for going to anywhere else in the cosmere and not needing to worry about carrying anything other than high caloric foods on trips. 

Would I love access to voidlight or some other way to actively soulcast that which is outside of the body?  Sure but even just being able to turn your 3rd 4th and 5th plates at a buffet into aluminum and wipe that stomach clean of all those calories would be pretty dope.  

 

This could be extra potent for a compounder of any kind as well. Being able to soulcast food into metal... store a few moments and then burn it and store that into legit metalminds afterwords. 

Edited November 8, 2025 by DoctaDajman

[Trusk'our he/him]

34 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

But isnt that the point of passive? That it consumes no voidlight? From the coppermind. 

  Hide contents

Unlike Radiants, however, Fannahn-im can use Transformation to soulcast any object that is even partially within their own bodies without expending Voidlight. This lets them freely purify their bodies and soulcast away any poisons, as well as soulcast the air in their lungs to breathe out toxic gas offensively. They can also use free Transformation like this on any object that pierces partly into their own body, like weapons, into a harmless essence, like smoke.^[59]

I didn't see a link on the page referencing where the person who wrote it got their information. Is this told to us in the Stormlight RPG book?

I think the Coppermind is good to look for quick references and links to the Arcanum, but I don't feel like it is great when it comes to founding a hypothesis or building a theory on its own because almost every page with extensive text also has a form of unfounded extrapolation and interpretation on the writer's part. Ruin's gotten way too busy there, me thinks.

34 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Sure but even just being able to turn your 3rd 4th and 5th plates at a buffet into aluminum and wipe that stomach clean of all those calories would be pretty dope.  

Wait, wouldn't burning the aluminum wipe your reserve of Voidlight too?

Edited November 8, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Nalthian Customs Official]

41 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

But isnt that the point of passive? That it consumes no voidlight? 

Just because it consumes no voidlight doesn't mean that voidlight doesn't need to be present for it to work.  The passive effect of how the Fused use their surges is something that comes from holding voidlight, just not expending it in the process.  Wind and Truth spoilers:

Spoiler

Leshwi and the other Heavenly Ones cannot freely fly after they run out of voidlight.  That is their passive effect, and it is gone after they run out of voidlight.  It's been a little while since I have read the book, so I may be wrong on some of the finer details, but I remember it being a big deal and a real struggle for Leshwi.  

And a Word of Brandon:

Spoiler

Quote

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

They specifically have an "inactive way to use their Voidlight," which I think is the key here

This hypothetical mistborn would need access to voidlight, even though the only thing they would be doing is holding it within themselves.  And without Fused physiology, it would probably leak like stormlight does for Radiants, although we never see any examples of a human holding voidlight to my knowledge.  

[DoctaDajman]

3 minutes ago, Nalthian Customs Official said:

Just because it consumes no voidlight doesn't mean that voidlight doesn't need to be present for it to work.  The passive effect of how the Fused use their surges is something that comes from holding voidlight, just not expending it in the process.  Wind and Truth spoilers:

  Hide contents

Leshwi and the other Heavenly Ones cannot freely fly after they run out of voidlight.  That is their passive effect, and it is gone after they run out of voidlight.  It's been a little while since I have read the book, so I may be wrong on some of the finer details, but I remember it being a big deal and a real struggle for Leshwi.  

And a Word of Brandon:

  Hide contents

They specifically have an "inactive way to use their Voidlight," which I think is the key here

This hypothetical mistborn would need access to voidlight, even though the only thing they would be doing is holding it within themselves.  And without Fused physiology, it would probably leak like stormlight does for Radiants, although we never see any examples of a human holding voidlight to my knowledge.  

 

43 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I didn't see a link on the page referencing where the person who wrote it got their information. Is this told to us in the Stormlight RPG book?

I think the Coppermind is good to look for quick references and links to the Arcanum, but I don't feel like it is great when it comes to founding a hypothesis or building a theory on its own because almost every page with extensive text also has a form of unfounded extrapolation and interpretation on the writer's part. Ruin's gotten way too busy there, me thinks.

Wait, wouldn't burning the aluminum wipe your reserve of Voidlight too?

Definately that reference was from the world guide. Good to know about the voidlight. Bit of a bummer. 

Since lights can be used as fuel for other powers would this at least be more efficient for allomancy than simply using light to fuel it even?  

Edited November 8, 2025 by DoctaDajman

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Definately that reference was from the world guide. Good to know about the voidlight. Bit of a bummer. 

Well, to be fair, I don't know that this isn't true for them. I just don't see an actual source for the claim of internal Soulcasting being free.

I'm not a fan of misinformation or leading people to false conclusions. That stuff's gotta have proof to back it up.

25 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Since lights can be used as fuel for other powers would this at least be more efficient for allomancy than simply using light to fuel it even?  

I'm not sure, honestly.

I think it could be, depending on the strength of the Allomancer, as more Allomantic strength should mean more Investiture drawn from the SR per unit of metal burned.

[DoctaDajman]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, to be fair, I don't know that this isn't true for them. I just don't see an actual source for the claim of internal Soulcasting being free.

I'm not a fan of misinformation or leading people to false conclusions. That stuff's gotta have proof to back it up.

I'm not sure, honestly.

I think it could be, depending on the strength of the Allomancer, as more Allomantic strength should mean more Investiture drawn from the SR per unit of metal burned.

Now I am curious as to how cannon the new RPGs are. Like Brandon was okay with people putting together rules for their adjacent universes and the MAG but the MAG was never carried over into the coppermind. 

I feel like this one has a lot more backing from him and all of the Fused are granted a passive use of their surge that they have mastered. 

I will preface it all as this... in the spirit of interpreting game rules this seems a potent combo.  

10 hours ago, Nalthian Customs Official said:

Just because it consumes no voidlight doesn't mean that voidlight doesn't need to be present for it to work.  The passive effect of how the Fused use their surges is something that comes from holding voidlight, just not expending it in the process.  Wind and Truth spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Leshwi and the other Heavenly Ones cannot freely fly after they run out of voidlight.  That is their passive effect, and it is gone after they run out of voidlight.  It's been a little while since I have read the book, so I may be wrong on some of the finer details, but I remember it being a big deal and a real struggle for Leshwi.  

And a Word of Brandon:

  Reveal hidden contents

They specifically have an "inactive way to use their Voidlight," which I think is the key here

This hypothetical mistborn would need access to voidlight, even though the only thing they would be doing is holding it within themselves.  And without Fused physiology, it would probably leak like stormlight does for Radiants, although we never see any examples of a human holding voidlight to my knowledge.  

I am curious about this some more... I haven't brought myself to power through RoW or WaT but feel free to drop spoilers.  

Is the lack of voidlight because there were anti tones going on?  I have no idea if they just ran out or were in areas where they couldn't access it because of some null magic field esq things. 

Cannon it seems right to not give anything truly for free. Would other lights or breaths be able to be hacked to fuel this? Could a swig of purified dor at the beginning of the day provide enough baseline investiture to use a free use of a surge that a person had access too.  

Free isnt free if there is a cost. 

It would be like saying that a pewter arm got to be 1.5x as strong as everyone else for free so long as they had pewter in their gut just floating there. Which seems inconsistent and odd. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

54 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Now I am curious as to how cannon the new RPGs are. Like Brandon was okay with people putting together rules for their adjacent universes and the MAG but the MAG was never carried over into the coppermind. 

I feel like this one has a lot more backing from him and all of the Fused are granted a passive use of their surge that they have mastered. 

I will preface it all as this... in the spirit of interpreting game rules this seems a potent combo.  

I heard that the game stuff is supposed to be considered cannon, but looking at some of the Resonances for Radiants, and the upgrade tree. . . yeah, I don't believe the magic is going to be an accurate representation of what we'd see in the books.

57 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

Is the lack of voidlight because there were anti tones going on?  I have no idea if they just ran out or were in areas where they couldn't access it because of some null magic field esq things. 

Cannon it seems right to not give anything truly for free. Would other lights or breaths be able to be hacked to fuel this? Could a swig of purified dor at the beginning of the day provide enough baseline investiture to use a free use of a surge that a person had access too.  

Free isnt free if there is a cost. 

It would be like saying that a pewter arm got to be 1.5x as strong as everyone else for free so long as they had pewter in their gut just floating there. Which seems inconsistent and odd. 

I don't think "free" power is unlikely in the Cosmere. Investiture seems to act like a "lightbulb" to the SR, constantly drawing a bit of energy simply by existing.

Take the Blessing of Potency. It's a constant, "free" power that is very similar to a Pewterarm, and all you need is some Invested iron present in you body at the right Bindpoints.

If you had enough Breath in your system and you had a Fused's stolen Surge, I think there's a good chance you could get passive Soulcasting. 

[Nalthian Customs Official]

50 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I am curious about this some more... I haven't brought myself to power through RoW or WaT but feel free to drop spoilers.  

Heavy spoilers for the end of Rhythm of War and parts of Wind and Truth:

Spoiler

At the end of Rhythm of War, Leshwi and some other Heavenly ones defect from Odium.  They leave his forces and go elsewhere, and no longer do what he wants.  We see the consequences of that in Wind and Truth, where they have run out of voidlight (it either drained very slowly over time or Odium stripped it from them after a point) and are no longer able to fly, even passively.  

I don't know how much hacking you would need to do for other magic systems.  The Heightenings that come with Breath seem to be another example of this effect: passive abilities that come from holding investiture, but not using it up in the process.  Even holding stormlight grants enhanced strength, speed, and not needing to breathe, although that may be more of a general effect of holding investiture.  It seems like if the investiture is stable enough, like Breaths, or if the person's body can hold investiture in a more stable way, like the gemhearts Fused have, then a person can hold investiture and not have it drain away.  Then it's a matter of the individual magic system if they get a unique passive effect, like the passive surges of the Fused or Heightenings, or a more general effect, like a boost to stats that we see with stormlight.  

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Take the Blessing of Potency. It's a constant, "free" power that is very similar to a Pewterarm, and all you need is some Invested iron present in you body at the right Bindpoints.

Hemalurgy is another example that I had not thought of, though it's less pure investiture and more a fragment of spiritweb.  I don't know if those are effectively the same thing or not.  

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If you had enough Breath in your system and you had a Fused's stolen Surge, I think there's a good chance you could get passive Soulcasting. 

That might require knowing how to convert between investiture in some way, but the principle seems sound.  Channeling passive effects of some investiture into another system.  

[DoctaDajman]

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I heard that the game stuff is supposed to be considered cannon, but looking at some of the Resonances for Radiants, and the upgrade tree. . . yeah, I don't believe the magic is going to be an accurate representation of what we'd see in the books.

I don't think "free" power is unlikely in the Cosmere. Investiture seems to act like a "lightbulb" to the SR, constantly drawing a bit of energy simply by existing.

Take the Blessing of Potency. It's a constant, "free" power that is very similar to a Pewterarm, and all you need is some Invested iron present in you body at the right Bindpoints.

If you had enough Breath in your system and you had a Fused's stolen Surge, I think there's a good chance you could get passive Soulcasting. 

Good points there. Probably a matter of being at a specific threshold of investiture. 

 

9 minutes ago, Nalthian Customs Official said:

Heavy spoilers for the end of Rhythm of War and parts of Wind and Truth:

  Hide contents

At the end of Rhythm of War, Leshwi and some other Heavenly ones defect from Odium.  They leave his forces and go elsewhere, and no longer do what he wants.  We see the consequences of that in Wind and Truth, where they have run out of voidlight (it either drained very slowly over time or Odium stripped it from them after a point) and are no longer able to fly, even passively.  

I don't know how much hacking you would need to do for other magic systems.  The Heightenings that come with Breath seem to be another example of this effect: passive abilities that come from holding investiture, but not using it up in the process.  Even holding stormlight grants enhanced strength, speed, and not needing to breathe, although that may be more of a general effect of holding investiture.  It seems like if the investiture is stable enough, like Breaths, or if the person's body can hold investiture in a more stable way, like the gemhearts Fused have, then a person can hold investiture and not have it drain away.  Then it's a matter of the individual magic system if they get a unique passive effect, like the passive surges of the Fused or Heightenings, or a more general effect, like a boost to stats that we see with stormlight.  

Hemalurgy is another example that I had not thought of, though it's less pure investiture and more a fragment of spiritweb.  I don't know if those are effectively the same thing or not.  

That might require knowing how to convert between investiture in some way, but the principle seems sound.  Channeling passive effects of some investiture into another system.  

Thanks for the spoilers. I love them to be honest.  

I wonder if you can hack that highly invested state one way then you could perhaps hack it a different way. Much like how holding breath or holding stormlight make you more passively invested for those moments. Stormlight being kinetic, as well as voidlight, and breaths being innate. They all share a theme of making one more invested.  

There is another kinetic investiture that could be hacked. When an allomancer is burning metal actively they are opening that line of power from the Spiritual Realm.  Even if it came down to using x amount and a mistborn needed to be burning multiple metals at once to be considered invested enough that could probably hack the system enough as well. 

While not a truly passive and free form of the ability, if they could become invested enough to soulcast what is in their body then the hack would still work to an extent. 

Probably easier to just do the mechanical implant of metals but one of the things I liked about this the most was the idea of taking something as mundane as an extra helping of food and turning it into a far more expensive amount of precious metal to be burnt later.  

If you could active the ability to use the hack by burning cheap metals and then turn a chunk of bread you just consumed into bendalloy, electrum, duralumin, chromium etc.... then I would still find the hack worth while. 

I wonder if stealing connection from the Fused would allow the hemalurgist to be able to connect to Odium and get voidlight.  

Even after it becomes warlight, are the Fused still using it and powering their abilities?  

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

There is another kinetic investiture that could be hacked. When an allomancer is burning metal actively they are opening that line of power from the Spiritual Realm.  Even if it came down to using x amount and a mistborn needed to be burning multiple metals at once to be considered invested enough that could probably hack the system enough as well. 

While not a truly passive and free form of the ability, if they could become invested enough to soulcast what is in their body then the hack would still work to an extent. 

I don't think this would work. Allomantic (and presumably Feruchemical) Investiture is tightly keyed to its function, making it very difficult to fuel with other sources, and I'd image changing it to fuel others.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5-dragoncon-2016/#e3233

Questioner

You've mentioned in the last couple of afterwords that you get interesting results when you mix types of Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Twinborn and Surgebinders on Roshar. Can you mix a form of magic with a source of Investiture? Can say Vasher use Stormlight in place of Breaths or would that require tampering via Hemalurgy or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones.

However, Bio Chromatic Breath is very flexible and could be used instead of Stormlight (and I assume Voidlight) very easily.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/225-words-of-radiance-san-diego-signing/#e5819

Leinton (paraphrased)

Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen to the Breath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8294

Questioner

Can a Surgebinder use Breath like they can Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible and not really that hard to make work.

 

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

I wonder if stealing connection from the Fused would allow the hemalurgist to be able to connect to Odium and get voidlight.   

I don't think you'd even need that to get it necessarily. You just need to use the Song of Prayer, and he probably won't even notice who's asking for Voidlight (Connection would probably still be useful though).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14918

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

 

[DoctaDajman]

28 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think this would work. Allomantic (and presumably Feruchemical) Investiture is tightly keyed to its function, making it very difficult to fuel with other sources, and I'd image changing it to fuel others.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5-dragoncon-2016/#e3233

Questioner

You've mentioned in the last couple of afterwords that you get interesting results when you mix types of Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Twinborn and Surgebinders on Roshar. Can you mix a form of magic with a source of Investiture? Can say Vasher use Stormlight in place of Breaths or would that require tampering via Hemalurgy or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones.

However, Bio Chromatic Breath is very flexible and could be used instead of Stormlight (and I assume Voidlight) very easily.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/225-words-of-radiance-san-diego-signing/#e5819

Leinton (paraphrased)

Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen to the Breath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8294

Questioner

Can a Surgebinder use Breath like they can Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible and not really that hard to make work.

 

I don't think you'd even need that to get it necessarily. You just need to use the Song of Prayer, and he probably won't even notice who's asking for Voidlight (Connection would probably still be useful though).

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14918

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

 

Song of Prayer is interesting. A mistborn has access to seeking which can hear and feel different tones right?  Perhaps that song is something that one may pick up on in a plausible way if they were in a position to aquicire the spike anyways. 

[Xanpheon]

So, we actually know why the Singers can hold Light for longer than humans can. It has to do with them being the native inhabitants of Roshar, and thus having Gemhearts. 

Considering that, it's fairly clear that you wouldn't be able to hold the Voidlight for long enough for it to really matter without having a Gemheart of your own. Now, whether you can use the investiture from the metal to Soulcast food into enough metal to get more investiture out than you put in is an entirely different question.

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

So, we actually know why the Singers can hold Light for longer than humans can. It has to do with them being the native inhabitants of Roshar, and thus having Gemhearts. 

Considering that, it's fairly clear that you wouldn't be able to hold the Voidlight for long enough for it to really matter without having a Gemheart of your own. 

Can you provide a source for this reasoning, please?

Voidlight is inherently "sticky" due to Odium's Intent, the specific cycle its Investiture is tied to, or some combination of both.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e63

Argent

Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Argent

--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?

Brandon Sanderson

Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?

Argent

Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?

Argent

And when you lash things it's temporary--

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.

Argent

Can they just hold it better?

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

I'm also hesitant to believe that Fused hold Investiture indefinitely until expended solely because of their status as Singers or their Gemheart biology, as I don't recall Rlain or Venli holding Stormlight indefinitely despite having Gemhearts. That would probably be a major advantage, but I don't think it has been done. I think it's a Voidlight specific perk, possibly mixed with their specific powers and Voidlight's lack of ties to Roshar's ecosystem at large.

 

Edited November 10, 2025 by Trusk'our
Clarification on what I meant to say

[Xanpheon]

14 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Can you provide a source for this reasoning, please?

Voidlight is inherently "sticky" due to Odium's Intent, the specific cycle its Investiture is tied to, or some combination of both.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e63

Argent

Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Argent

--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?

Brandon Sanderson

Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?

Argent

Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?

Argent

And when you lash things it's temporary--

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.

Argent

Can they just hold it better?

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

I'm also hesitant to believe that Fused hold Investiture indefinitely until expended solely because of their status as Singers or their Gemheart biology, as I don't recall Rlain or Venli holding Stormlight indefinitely despite having Gemhearts. That would probably be a major advantage, but I don't think it has been done. I think it's a Voidlight specific perk, possibly mixed with their specific powers and Voidlight's lack of ties to Roshar's ecosystem at large.

 

I've been searching for a WoB to back me up, and can't, so I apologise for the strength of the statement. I must have conflated the pretty heavy inference from the way that many creatures on Roshar cannot survive without Stormlight - but also seem to retain that stormlight much, much longer than Humans seem to be able to - with a quote somewhere else in my mind, so I apologise.

But to explain the reasoning of why I think that:

1. We don't really see Venli or Rlain in a situation where they would need to hold Stormlight longer than other Radiants. The primary places we see Rlain using Stormlight are  in the Tower, where he's got a functionally limitless supply of the stuff anyway, so making a statement about how long he can hold it is kind of moot. As for Venli, the primary places we get direct comments about her holding Stormlight are when she's experimenting for the first time in the Tower, and thus cannot risk holding it for long lest someone catch her. Unless I misremember, when she uses her powers in the Shattered plains, she's breathing in Stormlight to use it immediately.
2. The Fused have a "passive" use of their power fueled both by holding Voidlight and seemingly their nature as cognitive shadows. This mirrors the "passive" use of Stormlight that Chasmfiends, Skyeels... lots of creatures that are native to Roshar seem to have through bonding with Spren. But those passive abilities require investiture - so it makes sense that their bodies work similarly to fabrials, in that they welcome Spren into their gemhearts, the same gemhearts that in fabrials store Stormlight and Spren to fuel their abilities. They also don't collapse and die in the leadup to Highstorms when most gems have gone dun and humans holding stormlight would definitely have run out.

So it wasn't explicitly stated, but the inference to me has always been that native Rosharan fauna is much better at holding onto Stormlight because they have gemhearts and they rely on the investiture from the Highstorms to continue living and fuelling their bond with the spren.

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

I've been searching for a WoB to back me up, and can't, so I apologise for the strength of the statement. I must have conflated the pretty heavy inference from the way that many creatures on Roshar cannot survive without Stormlight - but also seem to retain that stormlight much, much longer than Humans seem to be able to - with a quote somewhere else in my mind, so I apologise.

But to explain the reasoning of why I think that:

1. We don't really see Venli or Rlain in a situation where they would need to hold Stormlight longer than other Radiants. The primary places we see Rlain using Stormlight are  in the Tower, where he's got a functionally limitless supply of the stuff anyway, so making a statement about how long he can hold it is kind of moot. As for Venli, the primary places we get direct comments about her holding Stormlight are when she's experimenting for the first time in the Tower, and thus cannot risk holding it for long lest someone catch her. Unless I misremember, when she uses her powers in the Shattered plains, she's breathing in Stormlight to use it immediately.

Excellent points. This makes sense.

6 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

1. The Fused have a "passive" use of their power fueled both by holding Voidlight and seemingly their nature as cognitive shadows. This mirrors the "passive" use of Stormlight that Chasmfiends, Skyeels... lots of creatures that are native to Roshar seem to have through bonding with Spren. But those passive abilities require investiture - so it makes sense that their bodies work similarly to fabrials, in that they welcome Spren into their gemhearts, the same gemhearts that in fabrials store Stormlight and Spren to fuel their abilities. They also don't collapse and die in the leadup to Highstorms when most gems have gone dun and humans holding stormlight would definitely have run out.

So it wasn't explicitly stated, but the inference to me has always been that native Rosharan fauna is much better at holding onto Stormlight because they have gemhearts and they rely on the investiture from the Highstorms to continue living and fuelling their bond with the spren.

To some extent, I think I follow here. 

As a soft counterpoint, I don't think this would necessarily mean biologically native creatures of Roshar would hold their Investiture indefinitely. At the least it just means that they can hold it long enough for another Highstorm hit of Stormlight, which is around 5 or so days, if memory serves correctly (except for the Weeping, which is something like twenty days and might require some extra oomph, maybe a form of brief hibernation for Greatshells to conserve Investiture).

 

I'm pretty sure Raboniel remarked on Radiants leaking Stormlight because they weren't native to Roshar in RoW, but I wouldn't take her word as gospel. 

As one of their brightest scientists, she is extremely biased when it comes to her scientific conclusions, and personally I think most of the rest of the Fused are in the same boat.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498-youtube-spoiler-stream-4/#e15656

LettersWords

The Fused only use nine of the Surges (they don't use Adhesion), and Raboniel describes Adhesion as "not a true Surge." Does this mean, in its original form on Ashyn, Surgebinding had no equivalent to Adhesion, and it was created by Honor later?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a valid way of theorizing, and I would encourage you to go that direction. Raboniel is biased. So take those two sentences as separate things. Do be aware she is very, very biased, but also your theorizing could bear fruit going that direction.

Thank you for explaining your thought process, it is much easier to understand now. 

Edited November 11, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Xanpheon]

20 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As a soft counterpoint, I don't think this would necessarily mean biologically native creatures of Roshar would hold their Investiture indefinitely. At the least it just means that they can hold it long enough for another Highstorm hit of Stormlight, which is around 5 or so days, if memory serves correctly (except for the Weeping, which is something like twenty days and might require some extra oomph, maybe a form of brief hibernation for Greatshells to conserve Investiture).

I want to clarify I'm not saying that it lets them store Light for an indeterminate amount of time, just that the fact that they canonically have objects that are designed to hold Investiture inside them as part of being the native fauna of Roshar would suggest that they are less "leaky" than humans are, as they have a vessel for it. The fact that Leshwi and the other Heavenly ones ran out of Voidlight proves that even if Voidlight is "stickier" than Stormlight they can't hold it forever without a connection to Odium, but it does suggest that there's something either about the power or about their physiology that holds it better. Holding for longer - i.e. having a store that *can* last through the Weeping - is probably all they need to do.

It does raise a separate, interesting question, though. What would it take for an individual to be a "perfect" vessel? The closest we have in mortals seems to be a 5th-ideal Radiant, as Fused are... weird, given their status as Cognitive shadows.  But even 5th ideal Radiants almost certainly aren't perfect, as Stormlight *wants* to escape. Further, is swearing the ideals functionally speaking getting closer to being a Savant with your chosen Radiant Order? Your Nahel bond makes you better at holding Investiture the more you bond, and each ideal sworn gives a massive surge of constant power for a short while that could act as a sudden inoculatory dose to get you a step closer to Savantism, letting you hold Investiture longer more safely?

All of those questions probably deserve their own topic, now that I think about it.

Edited November 12, 2025 by Xanpheon

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

I want to clarify I'm not saying that it lets them store Light for an indeterminate amount of time, just that the fact that they canonically have objects that are designed to hold Investiture inside them as part of being the native fauna of Roshar would suggest that they are less "leaky" than humans are, as they have a vessel for it. The fact that Leshwi and the other Heavenly ones ran out of Voidlight proves that even if Voidlight is "stickier" than Stormlight they can't hold it forever without a connection to Odium, but it does suggest that there's something either about the power or about their physiology that holds it better. Holding for longer - i.e. having a store that *can* last through the Weeping - is probably all they need to do.

Ah, my bad for misinterpreting you.

I will say on the Fused though, they're supposed to be able to hold Voidlight indefinitely, so maybe with Leshwi and the other rebels Taravodium just pulled it away the same way Tetribution tried to drain the Spren.

I can't check right now as I don't have my copy, but WaT I think may go over this in chapter 56.

3 hours ago, Xanpheon said:

It does raise a separate, interesting question, though. What would it take for an individual to be a "perfect" vessel? 

Have it fully keyed to you, often being in the form of your own Spiritweb. 

Allomancers have a larger, permanent piece of Preservation as a part of their Spiritweb, and it doesn't ever leave (unless, you know, Hemalurgy). Technically, anyone living on a Shardworld should have something similar permanently sewn into their spiritual makeup, albeit smaller. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e182

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e6881

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

(Trusk'our's note: titles like Six of the Dusk, which takes place on a minor Shardworld with no Shard in presence, had not been published yet)

Bio-chromatic Breaths stay indefinitely, but I think this is due more to Endowment's Intent and just the system in general- despite being primarily in the physical realm and not the Spiritweb, they're keyed to specific people, not the ecosystem or a big ol' tower, which I think keeps them from wanting to leak away. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5282

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

 

[Xanpheon]

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I will say on the Fused though, they're supposed to be able to hold Voidlight indefinitely, so maybe with Leshwi and the other rebels Taravodium just pulled it away the same way Tetribution tried to drain the Spren.

Yea, I agree, that's why I specify "without a connection to Odium" - They are Cognitive shadows bound to his intent, but when he withdraws his connection to them they lose that intent and thus what lets them store it indefinitely. They definitely last longer without a refill on the trek from Urithiru to the Shattered Plains than a Radiant would holding Stormlight, though, from the description.

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Have it fully keyed to you, often being in the form of your own Spiritweb. 

Allomancers have a larger, permanent piece of Preservation as a part of their Spiritweb, and it doesn't ever leave (unless, you know, Hemalurgy). Technically, anyone living on a Shardworld should have something similar permanently sewn into their spiritual makeup, albeit smaller. 

That's different from Stormlight, though. That investiture is, as you note, part of your spiritweb. Yes, you can't really untangle the physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects of a being especially as far as investiture is concerned, but when Allomancers are burning metal they aren't "holding" the power per se, they're using it to draw out investiture from Preservation - it's "streaming" investiture rather than stockpiling it, gaining to be used immediately. We see at the end of TLM that Allomancers can use raw investiture to power their abilities but they don't hold it physically for that long before it starts to hurt them. 

Similarly, usage of the Dor uses characters of some description, to open windows into the cognitive realm and shape the effects of the Dor through those windows (Dakhor, AonDor, Forging, even ChayShan seems to do so through the symbolism of their rotation). Examples like the Luhel bond don't involve the user holding investiture as much as it does exchanging water for control via symbiotic bonds with the thing actually doing the work.

I suppose my point here is that  the only MoIs I am aware of (and I am entirely willing to be proven wrong here) that seem to directly involve storing investiture within the body for a relatively extended period are those on Roshar, Nalthis, and Taldain with Starmarks specifically storing energy form the smaller star that the Darkside faces. And of those, none of them have "perfect" storage in a physical mortal body - Breaths are partly bonded to the spiritweb through Endowment's intent, though that bond can be broken and at least in part the investiture is present physically too, Taldain Starmarks are more like tattoos so the investiture there is almost closer to storing in a medallion/metalmind, and on Roshar the investiture wants to escape to fuel the ecosystem.

We know it's possible to store investiture for an arbitrarily long time given the correct prison (Ba-Ado-Mishram), and without binding the investiture to the spiritweb I'm just wondering what it would take to actually turn a mortal body into a "perfect" prison a la a perfect gemstone.