Impact of widespread tales on reality

[CMac716]

Throughout many of the books in the series we see that thought impacts the way investiture behaves. However, I dont think we realized just how potent that impact can be. One of Ambitions anti-splinters was essentially turned into a protector God because the people of the planet kept telling stories that made it eventually come true. This opens a whole new can of worms regarding many other planets and the tales they tell. How much becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy just because enough of the population believes it. 

 

The first of the Cosmere i read was Elantris, where a major religion has spent a long time believing that of everyone on the planet worships their god, he will return. This planet also happens to have two entire Shards worth of investiture just hanging out in Shadesmar. The likelihood of Jaddeth being real is pretty high, regardless of if he existed before. It also lowers the chance he's an Avatar of Autonomy, but doesnt remove it.

 

Next, we have Roshar, where they spent thousands of years believing Vorinism. In my mind, this lends a great deal of credibility to my theory that the afterlife on Roshar is absolutely broken. The dead don’t go to the Beyond. They get pulled to the Tranquline Halls, likely a location in the Spirit Realm akin to the Dragon beach. The voices that Szeth hears, or Evi's voice to Dalinar are actually happening. 

 

How about Scadrial? We have a religion based on our favorite ghost being immortal, and now he will be. Or tales of his brother spread through the Cosmere to ensure Death can't die either? A certain Diety that is having a crisis of faith while people speak of the coming of Discord?

 

The Cosmere is what it's society thinks it is for long enough. Self-actuallizing.

Edited July 25, 2025 by CMac716

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, CMac716 said:

However, I dont think we realized just how potent that impact can be. One of Ambitions anti-splinters was essentially turned into a protector God because the people of the planet kept telling stories that made it eventually come true. This opens a whole new can of worms regarding many other planets and the tales they tell. How much becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy just because enough of the population believes it. 

Keep in mind, this applies to Investiture without  a vessel or controlling conciousness. The Nightmares were affected by being corrupted investiture stripped of Identity, the Dakwara was a splinter/avatar without a vessel, The Spren of Roshar were changed over time by humanity's arrival because they are pieces of investiture - though Sapient splinters are far less changable. 

I doubt the mechanic could change something as fundamental as how Souls interact with the beyond (not just because the Soul is not "loose, uncontrolled" investiture - but because we don't know that the Beyond even uses Investiture to have it's mechanics somehow affected by Belief. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

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Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

<edited for length and relevance>

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

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Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term Cognitive Shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (Cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017)

That section - investiture looks for someone to control it is likely part of why concensual reality (sapient belief) affects uncontrolled investiture - it's looking for a source to give it form and function. 

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Questioner

If someone were to create a human shape, with full articulations, made out of the four Feruchemical Spiritual metals and copper and do like a full dump into them, would it be able to-- I mean, Investiture attains sapience on its own. And then with-- If those were mixed with the memories in the copper would it be able to effectively become an android of the person who created it?

Brandon Sanderson

So we got a couple of issues you have to overcome in creating this. Number one, the memories are not going to attune to the Investiture itself, they're going to be attuned to you. The Investiture as it attains sapience is gonna create its own Identity, which is then going to be a mismatch for those memories. So you would have to find a way to get those memories to work for that creation.

Questioner

It wouldn't tie with the Identity that was stored in the aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it would not... The other thing you were getting at there though, is that just Investing it alone, you would have to leave it alone for a long time, naturally, for it to start developing anything. And so we're looking at thousands of years, probably. There are ways to speed that process along, but just doing that and leaving it, it's gonna take a while.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

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Questioner

You mentioned earlier about Investiture with spren and concepts. You mentioned there's only a certain amount that there could be. Is it possible for a concept to not be popular enough, where that concept could die, those spren could die? Or would they change?

Brandon Sanderson

They would change over time. Which some of them would call death, be aware. When you are essentially an immortal piece of something that's become self-aware, it would be very traumatic. And an individual that's obtained sapience-level intelligence is going to resist that to the point that it would have to be something devastating on a catastrophic level to actually do it to them. They would call that death. Lesser spren wouldn’t call it death; they would just be changing over time. Any more than an atom becoming part of a new compound is gonna think that it died.

Footnote: "You mentioned earlier" refers to this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/540/#e16720
Dragonsteel Nexus 2024 (Dec. 5, 2024)

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Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was Invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was Invested to the point of... Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Hope that helps.

[CMac716]

I still see no evidence against my theory on Roshars broken afterlife. We know that Roshar has some of the most naturally invested people that we've seen in the cosmere and the more invested someone is, the longer it takes their shadow to dissipate. Vorinism didn't change the way the Beyond works, just how souls react once they die. Vorins that lived their calling go to the Tranquline Halls to help the Heralds while the rest slumber until the Tranquline Halls are re-captured. Once that happens, the Beyond will still likely pull any trapped souls that dont have enough Investiture to persist.

 

My little sub theory is that the collective soul Investiture is where Spren go to create their children, but that's mostly me trying to explain Syl's description of their procreation

Edited July 26, 2025 by CMac716