Feedback on my Selish Knot-based magic

[Atlas333]

I think Selish is a great sand box to imagine different magic systems. Aons are a flexible system that can be interpreted a lot of ways. While brainstorming a new magic system I came across this WoB.

Quote

Glamdring804 (paraphrased)

I was was wondering what kind of physical limitations there are on Selish magic systems: could there be, for example, a magic system based off of tying knots on a rope?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that one isn’t even hard to imagine. It’s very plausible.

Glamdring804 (paraphrased)

Okay, so how much of a sort of nation-identity would it take to manifest a new magic system on Sel?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So it’s fairly easy. You’d just need a "sustainable population," whatever you decide that means.

Dragonsteel Nexus 2024 (Dec. 6, 2024)

So for fun, I tried to make this hypothetical knot-based magic system. I would love feedback to improve it. 

 

People who manipulate the Dor through knot tying are called knotbinders. Knotbinding’s primary power is to influence fortune (aka, the future). 

Process

Knotbinders start by tying the knot of the land (like the base aon of elantris). Then they specify what they want to happen in the future via a series of knots. Finally, in the moment they want the knot to activate, they cut the knot, releasing the power. A knotbinder’s power is not absolute; their knot can work to varying degrees (for example, injuring someone when the intent was to kill). Additionally, complicated or unlikely futures most often fail. As such, knotbinders try to only influence the future, not control it.
Note: Using a person’s hair in the knot increases its power. This is necessary as influencing a person is significantly more difficult than influencing an object.

Example knots:

• Safe voyage knot - cut at the start of a voyage to ensure safe travels
• Mistep knot - can cause someone to trip
• Fraying knot - can cause an object to break
• Silent knot - makes sudden noises less likely to happen (useful for sneaking)
• Persuasive knot - makes someone more receptive to persuasion
• Noose knot - can make someone choke on their food

Other notes about the setting:

Philosophy
Knotbinders believed that once there was a god who wrote the grand weave of the world. However, they were killed, leaving the tapestry unfinished. They see it as an opportunity to finish (or subvert) the original design.

Knotbinders are almost always secretive. They prefer to sit in the shadows and influence things behind the scenes. As such, most knotbinders keep their abilities hidden.

Knotbinders usually fall into two groups:

• A group that feels it is their duty to “guard fate.” They limit their knotbinding to subtle manipulations and try to nudge the world towards a better future
• A minority group that sees the weave as shackles and seeks to throw it off. They strive to create chaos and destroy other knotbinders.

 

Anyway this magic system could be improved? Does it feel like it would fit on Sel? Also, any other ideas/feedback are welcome!

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

26 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

People who manipulate the Dor through knot tying are called knotbinders. Knotbinding’s primary power is to influence fortune (aka, the future). 

A purely fortune based Invested Art? Sounds fascinating.

 

27 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Process

Knotbinders start by tying the knot of the land (like the base aon of elantris). Then they specify what they want to happen in the future via a series of knots. Finally, in the moment they want the knot to activate, they cut the knot, releasing the power. A knotbinder’s power is not absolute; their knot can work to varying degrees (for example, injuring someone when the intent was to kill). Additionally, complicated or unlikely futures most often fail. As such, knotbinders try to only influence the future, not control it.

So, most Knotbinders can't just go all Death Knote on everyone. No making someone half-way across Sel fall over dead from a heart attack.

Still, even if it's not full control over fate, it's still ridiculously useful.

29 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Note: Using a person’s hair in the knot increases its power. This is necessary as influencing a person is significantly more difficult than influencing an object.

Sounds almost like Awakening, using a piece of a living thing to act as a 'focus' for the magic.

But also, influencing the fate of objects? I assumed that Fortune would mainly affect people since they're typically the ones that have fates.

But I guess there are some examples of objects having fates of their own, like the Sword in the Stone being destined to be used by the rightful king of Britain and all that.

32 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Safe voyage knot - cut at the start of a voyage to ensure safe travels

Now if I recall, though I don't know for sure so take this with a grain of salt, Fortune doesn't literally reshape the world to align with one's luck, but is more based on a person's decisions. So, would this Knot less directly affect the weather and more just subtly guide sailors into picking safer paths even if they wouldn't normally know them?

34 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Mistep knot - can cause someone to trip

I'm guessing that Knots can be prepared beforehand and saved for a later time? Since this sounds useful, but if you had to tie complex knots in a short time that would be really inconvenient.

36 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Fraying knot - can cause an object to break

Breaking an object by altering its fate? How would this occur? Would it make a person more likely to break it? Make it decay faster overtime, though that doesn't sound like how this magic is meant to work. Just saying this particular one doesn't sound like it's based on possibility like the others.

37 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Silent knot - makes sudden noises less likely to happen (useful for sneaking)

Yeah, that would be useful. Less likely to step on creaky boards or snap a twig. A little nudge from fate to help you keep quiet.

38 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Persuasive knot - makes someone more receptive to persuasion

Would this work by affecting a person's mind, or by just nudging the user into knowing the right words and tones to make them more likely to listen?

39 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Noose knot - can make someone choke on their food

Almost Death Note, just a bit less inherently lethal. Still, could you imagine a Death Note-ish story, but instead of Kira killing criminals with heart attacks, they're choking on food instead? Sounds hilarious.

40 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Philosophy
Knotbinders believed that once there was a god who wrote the grand weave of the world. However, they were killed, leaving the tapestry unfinished. They see it as an opportunity to finish (or subvert) the original design.

Very interesting lore, and fits in nicely with Sel's lore of Devotion and Dominion being dead gods. 

41 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Knotbinders are almost always secretive. They prefer to sit in the shadows and influence things behind the scenes. As such, most knotbinders keep their abilities hidden.

Would make sense, it'd make people's fate harder to manipulate if everyone was paranoid about it. Or everyone just bans rope.

Is it just regular ropes that need to be used in Knotbinding or can any type of thread by used?

43 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Knotbinders usually fall into two groups:

• A group that feels it is their duty to “guard fate.” They limit their knotbinding to subtle manipulations and try to nudge the world towards a better future
• A minority group that sees the weave as shackles and seeks to throw it off. They strive to create chaos and destroy other knotbinders.

Makes sense, where there is the concept of fate, there will always be someone who rejects the idea in its entirety.

Maybe this Knotbinding is more aligned with Dominion, with the inherent ability to control or at least influence people into being more likely to doing what you want? Even if it's for the greater good?

45 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Anyway this magic system could be improved?

Some of the abilities described don't really sound like they're based in purely Fate type of stuff, mostly the Fraying and Persuasive Knot, granted that's just because their descriptions don't fully align with my perspective on how Fortune works, which is more just a hunch than anything.

Also, do the Knots glow? Because many of the Selish arts have a glowing component to them like AonDor, ChayShan and Dahkor. But with how subtle this Art is meant to be, maybe the glowing only occurs when the Knot is cut?

48 minutes ago, Atlas333 said:

Does it feel like it would fit on Sel?

It does, it's also subtle enough that most Selish would probably question whether it actually exists.

Overall, not bad. But I do feel like it needs a bit more workshopping to really make it shine in it's own way compared to the other Selish Arts.

[Atlas333]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

 

But I guess there are some examples of objects having fates of their own, like the Sword in the Stone being destined to be used by the rightful king of Britain and all that.

This is a good point I hadn't considered. In my head, the "break object" knot would be used when an archer tries to use their bow, but the string snaps. But you bring up a good point, in general, it would probably be better to have knots mostly affect people, not objects. So it'd be more accurate to say the Fraying Knot makes a person break the object they're using.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Now if I recall, though I don't know for sure so take this with a grain of salt, Fortune doesn't literally reshape the world to align with one's luck, but is more based on a person's decisions. So, would this Knot less directly affect the weather and more just subtly guide sailors into picking safer paths even if they wouldn't normally know them?

Going with the "mostly affects people" rule, I agree it would just guide the sailors, not control the weather.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm guessing that Knots can be prepared beforehand and saved for a later time? Since this sounds useful, but if you had to tie complex knots in a short time that would be really inconvenient.

I go back and forth on this. On one hand, I could see the argument that knot tying takes too long to do mid-combat, so it should be prepared beforehand. But on the other hand, I worry that narratively it won't be very interesting to have knotbinders just pull out the perfect knot for every occasion. Maybe there's a compromise, but I imagine that it'd be better to have the knot be tied the moment before it's cut. Just feels a bit more active that way, but I could be convinced to change this.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Would this work by affecting a person's mind, or by just nudging the user into knowing the right words and tones to make them more likely to listen?

This is a good question. I imagined if affecting the listener, making them more likely to take things at face value, but it would prob make more sense to say that the speaker uses fortune to know what to say.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Is it just regular ropes that need to be used in Knotbinding or can any type of thread by used?

I'm using forgery as a reference regarding materials. Technically, any material can be used, but there's a material much better suited for it, like soulstone is for forgery. For now, I'm calling it "Spirit Thread," but I'm open to suggestions.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Also, do the Knots glow? Because many of the Selish arts have a glowing component to them like AonDor, ChayShan and Dahkor. But with how subtle this Art is meant to be, maybe the glowing only occurs when the Knot is cut?

Good point, I imagine they glow faintly while tied but grow brighter as they're being cut before going dull.

 

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

It does, it's also subtle enough that most Selish would probably question whether it actually exists.

Overall, not bad. But I do feel like it needs a bit more workshopping to really make it shine in it's own way compared to the other Selish Arts.

That's what I was going for. While not necessary because Sel is such an unexplored setting, I thought it'd be good to keep this magic on the more subtle side.

 

That being said, thank you for your insight! I think you raised some good points I hadn't considered.

Edited May 12, 2025 by Atlas333

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

It's an interesting idea and I think it has potential.

Just some random thoughts:

• I'm not sure about the idea of it working entirely through the fortune/luck attribute, it feels a bit un-Selish (the other known Selish magic systems let users program pretty much whatever they want). If you change it to "mainly fortune, but supported by other attributes" I could see that working in the setting.
  • I'm looking at Feruchemy for a list of usable attributes 
    • Such as a knot for luck in sports increasing the target's Fortune, and also a little (Physical) Strength and/or Speed
    • Your "Persuasive" knot could work (in part) by increasing the Connection attribute between two people
• If you want the system to be usable in combat (I don't think it needs to be) while still avoiding the "magic backpack" thing where a character just pulls out the perfect knot for every occasion, you could do something to limit the amount of knots a Knotbinder can or wants to carry around with them.
  • For example, if you add a rule that a tied knot grows more powerful the longer the Knotbinder carries it with them by absorbing their investiture over time, it allows for rapid deployment of a knot (i.e. in a fight) but it also prevents them from going around all the time with any knot you can imagine, because that would suck out too much investiture (leading to something like a Nightblood-sucking-out-your-soul-scenario).
• Increasing the knot's power by weaving in a person's hair. I assume it's the hair of the intended target?
  • How does a knot without hair know who it's supposed to affect?
    • Is it purely the intent of the Knotbinder when cutting the knot?
    • Is the name of the target included in the knot's design?
    • Are both possible, but the way without a name limits how powerful the knot is?
• Does a knot become more or less powerful with more specific instructions?
  • More specific would imply more complicated and thus more likely to fail.
• For a group that tries to influence the future, their magic system appears to lack a means to know the future.
  • Unless they use a knot to increase their fortune/luck and then do some type of fortunetelling (Tarot cards, I Ching sticks, etc.)
• The two groups of Knotbinders feels a bit limiting. In your place, I would make it three.
  • The majority of "Guards of Fate" you describe, who work together according to a grand plan. (Which offers the plot option of internal factional struggles about what the plan should be.)
  • The minority of "destructive rebels" you describe, who want to overturn the weave by causing chaos.
  • And another minority group who don't act according to the "Guards'" massive master plan, but just try to improve the lives of the people around them in small ways.

As JustQuestin2004 said, it could do with some more workshopping, but overall it's a very good start.

 

PS, hope I didn't overstep by offering suggestions that are maybe a bit too specific.

[BigBadBagsworth He/him/his]

It's also worth noting that the Jeskeri Mysteries might also have purely fortune manipulation effects, assuming that the Mysteries are the magic of Duladel, though the fact that Dulas can become Elantrians might suggest that AonDor is their magic system.

Especially since the whole concept of the Dor came from Duladel