Radiant Ideals

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

Let's figure out the unknown Radiant Ideals!

Here's what I'm thinking for the Truthwatcher 2nd Ideal: I will seek truth and share it with those who need it. 

I feel like that has one too many 'it's in it. If anyone can think of some better phrasing, please tell me. Also if can come up with any other Ideals.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

To rephrase the ideal without two "it"s: 

I will seek truth and share it with those in need. 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

5 hours ago, epl2 said:

To rephrase the ideal without two "it"s: 

I will seek truth and share it with those in need. 

Yes that works. I will say the Words... 

Now, what could the Third Ideal be?

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

36 minutes ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

what could the Third Ideal be?

I could see it being something like "I will embrace challenging truths." this could be worded as "the truths that change me" or "the truths that are uncomfortable". The Enlightened version would be"those truths I/others despise".

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

44 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

I could see it being something like "I will embrace challenging truths." this could be worded as "the truths that change me" or "the truths that are uncomfortable". The Enlightened version would be"those truths I/others despise".

The Third Ideal is different depending upon the individual speaking it but generally has the same theme. I think it would be best as: 

I will embrace truth, even when painful to do so. 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

The examples we have of 4th ideals are kind of sparse, but it seems like they are either goal driven (Ideal of Crusade for Skybreakers, "I want to understand you" for Bondsmiths) or about tempering intensity of the prior ideals ("I will accept there are those I cannot protect" for Windrunners). So I imagine the Truthwatcher one would be "I will restore lost truth" (which has a completion requirement) or it is "I will not make the truth a harm to others".

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

The examples we have of 4th ideals are kind of sparse, but it seems like they are either goal driven (Ideal of Crusade for Skybreakers, "I want to understand you" for Bondsmiths) or about tempering intensity of the prior ideals ("I will accept there are those I cannot protect" for Windrunners). So I imagine the Truthwatcher one would be "I will restore lost truth" (which has a completion requirement) or it is "I will not make the truth a harm to others".

I also think the 4th Ideal could be 'I accept that there are times when truth is limited, so I must go with what I have'

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

'I accept that there are times when truth is limited, so I must go with what I have'

Maybe more pithy as "I will not allow my ignorance to stop me from doing what is right."?

[earthexile]

It seems almost inevitable to me that the pursuit of Truth must lead to the discovery that there is almost nothing that's just plain True, independently of context. Is it true that water boils at one hundred degrees? Yes, but on the other hand, that's under certain conditions and what even is a degree anyway? We made those up. So okay, an amount of energy makes water undergo an amount of change. But there are multiple gods influencing the behavior of physics, after all, so who's to say whether water would behave this way if the gods were different, or absent? Maybe even the concept of boiling is a subjective choice made by a flawed mind.

"I see now that nothing is truly the Truth" would be a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. And an important step for people to make, if they were for example an interracial couple trying to heal an ancient race war where everyone's got every reason to keep fighting.

 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

Is it true that water boils at one hundred degrees? Yes, but on the other hand, that's under certain conditions and what even is a degree anyway? We made those up.

What you are describing here is a notion of factuality and with a touching upon the existence of systems of knowledge.

I imagine the kinds of truth that a Truthwatcher is meant to be sharing and uncovering are much more about how systems of knowledge work or about factualities which have been distorted. For example, a Truthwatcher would probably be more interested in showing how Singers and Humans are able to be united, that it is true that peace can exist between them, rather than the specific facts of how horneater biology works.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

18 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

The examples we have of 4th ideals are kind of sparse, but it seems like they are either goal driven (Ideal of Crusade for Skybreakers, "I want to understand you" for Bondsmiths) or about tempering intensity of the prior ideals ("I will accept there are those I cannot protect" for Windrunners). So I imagine the Truthwatcher one would be "I will restore lost truth" (which has a completion requirement) or it is "I will not make the truth a harm to others".

I believe that the 4th Ideal is supposed to be a personal one, that changes for every Radiant. I think there could be a lot of different options here. Ones I thought of were: 

I accept that I cannot know the entire Truth. 

or

I accept that Truth is subjective to individuals. 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

4 hours ago, earthexile said:

"I see now that nothing is truly the Truth" would be a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. And an important step for people to make, if they were for example an interracial couple trying to heal an ancient race war where everyone's got every reason to keep fighting.

31 minutes ago, epl2 said:

I accept that I cannot know the entire Truth. 

or

I accept that Truth is subjective to individuals. 

Yes, all of these seem like potential Truthwatcher 4th Ideals.

For Skybreakers, an ordinary person saying the 5th Ideal would be madness, as giving anyone power over the law is a bad idea. But, with the context of the other Skybreaker oaths, is reasonable. For Windrunners, it's not exactly the same, but it's similar. I think it'll be something like that for the Truthwatcher 5th Ideal.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

15 minutes ago, epl2 said:

I accept that Truth is subjective to individuals. 

I don't think this is actually true though. Sometimes things are a matter of taste, but facts do exist.

Something more like "My truth shall not be a tyrant" gets at the idea that people can see things differently without denying objective reality or the idea of having values that one sees as needing to be universal.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

Like I said, it would be different depending on who said it. That one works too, though. 

[earthexile]

18 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I imagine the kinds of truth that a Truthwatcher is meant to be sharing and uncovering are much more about how systems of knowledge work or about factualities which have been distorted. For example, a Truthwatcher would probably be more interested in showing how Singers and Humans are able to be united, that it is true that peace can exist between them, rather than the specific facts of how horneater biology works.

That's why I use the example of something as straightforward and seemingly objective as the temperature at which water boils. If something that basic can be subject to interpretation and change, the Truths that can be found within persons, or a people, or all people, will be that much more so.

[Armadillo]

On 5/10/2025 at 4:10 PM, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

Let's figure out the unknown Radiant Ideals!

I really hate to be that guy, but I'm pretty sure the Cosmere RPG books will be doing this for us in the next few months.

That being said, I'm not against trying to figure them all out before they come out! Why stop someone from having fun??

Here's my contribution. The Stoneward ideals, if you're interested haha. (This is a photo I got online from the "Invested in the Cosmere" website on an article about the RPG presentation at Dragonsteel Nexus 2024)

Edited May 13, 2025 by Armadillo
Linked the article

[AlmightyGir]

1 hour ago, Armadillo said:

I really hate to be that guy, but I'm pretty sure the Cosmere RPG books will be doing this for us in the next few months.

That being said, I'm not against trying to figure them all out before they come out! Why stop someone from having fun??

Here's my contribution. The Stoneward ideals, if you're interested haha. (This is a photo I got online from the "Invested in the Cosmere" website on an article about the RPG presentation at Dragonsteel Nexus 2024)

I had wondered if we would learn this through the TTRPG... I can't imagine Sanderson wouldn't have given them the ideals for at least some of the radiant orders, the playable ones at least.

So the Stonewards are:
 

The Second Ideal

“I will stand when others fall back.”

• Take on challenges and difficult tasks, especially those that others have already refused.

• Support your friends and allies in their moments of doubt, weakness, or struggle.

• Refuse to give up in the face of adversity. Through improvisation, problem-solving, or sheer grit, see yourself and those relying on you through.

---

The Third Ideal

“I will be the foundation on which others can build.”

• Provide support to people who look like they’re in need, especially if they’re too stubborn to accept it.

• Delay your own goals and other ambitions — or even fail them, for the sake of helping others achieve theirs.

• Put yourself in danger for a cause that doesn’t directly benefit you.

---

The Fourth Ideal

Unknown what words specifically are used, could be described on the next page... But thematically, they could revolve around:

• Learning to recognize the limits of self-sacrifice, distinguishing between harming yourself by overextending, and genuinely supporting others.

• Recognizing that you cannot meet every need or expectation placed on you, and learning to prioritize without abandoning the spirit of service.

• Reaching balance so that you continue to serve meaningfully, without burning yourself out or crumbling under impossible standards.

 

I imagine the second ideal might be spoken when seeing people around you retreating from overwhelming odds, while you are compelled to hold the line. Or maybe when a problem or puzzle presents itself that others are giving up on, but you push through and find a solution.

The third ideal might be spoken by a Stoneward as they make they realise that if they stop chasing down a foe now, they can aid their allies in building fortifications ready for the next wave, putting aside personal beef for the greater benefit of others. Or perhaps even something more mundane, they decide to donate all their gems to an orphanage instead of paying off their mortgage early.

[Armadillo]

Also, just for the sake of more information, here's a line from the article: "...the team reiterated that we would be learning what each orders ideals are, excluding the 5th."

13 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

Unknown what words specifically are used, could be described on the next page

This line from the paragraph under "The Fourth Ideal" leads me to believe that they want us to come up with an Ideal personalized to our characters:
"Though the specific words are individualized for each Stoneward, the Fourth Ideal recognizes that it's impossible to consistently help others if you don't care for yourself."

That being said, I think that it's probably similar to Kaladin's 5th ideal ("I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others") and it's something like this:
"I will be there for myself, so that I may continue to be there for others."

(Interestingly, the Third Ideal seems to be the one that is the most flexible for Windrunners, since we've got three different versions of it. Then again, we haven't seen any Windrunners other than Kaladin swear ideals past the 3rd, so maybe they're all more flexible past the 3rd.)

[AlmightyGir]

9 minutes ago, Armadillo said:

Also, just for the sake of more information, here's a line from the article: "...the team reiterated that we would be learning what each orders ideals are, excluding the 5th."

This line from the paragraph under "The Fourth Ideal" leads me to believe that they want us to come up with an Ideal personalized to our characters:
"Though the specific words are individualized for each Stoneward, the Fourth Ideal recognizes that it's impossible to consistently help others if you don't care for yourself."

That being said, I think that it's probably similar to Kaladin's 5th ideal ("I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others") and it's something like this:
"I will be there for myself, so that I may continue to be there for others."

(Interestingly, the Third Ideal seems to be the one that is the most flexible for Windrunners, since we've got three different versions of it. Then again, we haven't seen any Windrunners other than Kaladin swear ideals past the 3rd, so maybe they're all more flexible past the 3rd.)

Yeah, there are certainly some similar themes between Windrunners and Stonewards, they largely go after the same thing, but approach it in different ways.