Did Ishar build "Heraldic potential" into the progression of the Knights Radiant?

[Ripheus23]

When Ishar helped in a major way with the emergence of the Orders, alongside being the one to gate humanity from Ashyn to Roshar by other, prior great power: for all that, did he subconsciously, or even consciously, embed a "subroutine" into the Orders, whereby those who attained the highest excellence were granted, by the finality of their local "Ideals," the opportunity to partake of another sequence of vows: i.e. the Oathpact?

For that is the most of what we are shown about the importance of the final Ideals: when Szeth and Kaladin attain this state, it is in the ultimate context of Ishar finding Heraldic potential in possible new components of a reforged Oathpact. In a similar, but not identical, vein, Dalinar has the chance to participate in a vow even more powerful than those of his Order, the vow that will allow him to take on the reborn mantle of Honor. We have, as it were, a proto-mathematical "leveling" going on:

1. Adolinesque promises
2. The Ideals of the Knights
3. The promissory substrate of the Oathpact
4. The promise of Honor itself

I say "proto-mathematical" because I have no sufficient textual proof, as yet, that Sanderson would even have a definite reason to organize the vow-based magic system by a fourfold leveling as such. Tradition tells us that Honor should have situated the above tiers-of-promising according to a tenfold structure. On the other hand, the long mark of Adonalsium is on the Rosharan system, and we have recurring mystical motifs involving e.g. 3 as well as 4. One would hope that it was possible for Honor to replicate, at some deep point, the fourfold manner of Adonalsium. From some "mathematics" POVs, there are many paths from 4 to 10, with different interesting functions.

But, I shouldn't overcommit to the above theory. Maybe there should be 10 super-levels of promissory magic. Or five again, as a fractal mirror of the Knights maybe. Does a general argument still stand, though, that the Oathpact's "level of power" is higher than that of the Knights, but lower than that of Ascending to the Shard of Honor? So that it was possible that Ishar believed something like this, at least, and encoded it into the pattern of the Knights' system, as a way to test people across the ages in case the day came when the Heralds did at last fail at their physical task so much that new Heralds would at least have to be a live option?

ADDED: partial attempt at "proof"

Premise: 5 is important to Roshar just for the sake of the fact that there is an arithmetical symmetry, for 5, in terms of 10. Since symmetry is already important to Roshar as well, it follows that a number which features in a certain symmetry for the primary sacred Rosharan number, 10, would "inherit" some of the grace and value of 10 as such. So, the flip side of this is that the multiplicative such symmetry involves the number 2, which for us IRL is the fact that the meta-ketek of the Archive books/titles is divided into two major arcs, the front and back half. Therefore, the number 2 is also "Spiritually" important, here, on some level. Accordingly, the intricate mathematical relationships and functions between the numbers 2 and 4 are then unfolding in a story where 4 does have extreme importance even in the Rosharan context, i.e. because of the presence of Dawnshards there. So, it would be possible for Honor to "justify" a fourfold sequence of levels of the-power-of-vows, by reference to a pattern like that, or maybe this example itself.

Corollary: is this what the spren were inspired by, then? This generalized knowledge that there were already different "tiers of power" based on Honor's commitment to binding agreements? Note also that Ishar was uniquely driven to pathological belief in his being a deity, for all his power, and maybe the Fifth Ideal Bondsmith would be the kind of candidate for replacing him. Which meant Dalinar, then, in the sense that what the Bondsmith trains to do with the godspren is prepare for the taking up of Honor's deity.

Edited January 18, 2025 by Ripheus23

[TheoreticalMagic]

Hmmm. I can't say where I fall on the "maybe he did it subconsciously" side of this, but I definitely don't think he ever had any initial thoughts or intentions regarding eventual replacements for the original Heralds. As you said, Ishar was uniquely driven to pathological belief in his being a deity, because that was how his corruption-via-Odium presented itself. Just as it magnified Battar's greed, Ash's self-loathing, Kalak's indecisiveness.....Ishar's manifestation was his hubris and self-assuredness magnified to an exponential degree.

Even back in the earliest visions, he definitely (to me) came across as one of the most....egotistical Heralds. That's harsh, probably, as I don't deny that he definitely did tremendous things for humanity and endured terrible torture as a result, but its more that I just mean he had the most clear savior complex of the original group. Even Jezrien, while arrogant at times, seemed driven more by the responsibility he felt was bestowed by his kingship; Ishar seemed to feel driven by a need to be the one to fix things. There was more than likely a great deal of guilt built into that, especially since its implied he was the one who initialized the cataclysm on Alaswha, but any way you cut it, I believe Ishar always thought a great deal of his footprint in the cosmere compared to everyone else's. He was "bigger" than the average person, even as a mortal. His actions had greater import, his choices greater significance.

And the other original Heralds were IMO the only ones he (initially) viewed as being on his level, or close to it. I believe he genuinely cared about the people under his protection. But I think he did so in a decidedly paternalistic way (not unlike Dalinar's core character journey and his repeated belief that it fell to him alone to fix everything and it would be for the best if he could be the one making all the decisions). I'm actually very intrigued by the notion that this is a Bondsmith trait in general, similar to how Windrunners struggle with self-care and are prone to self-sacrificing martyr tendencies, as Navani IMO also displays this trait, (albeit to a lesser degree, and with her evolving past it earlier in her character journey than Dalinar. Also, in her case I'd say it also could be overcompensation due to struggling with her insecurities about others not viewing her as a 'real' scholar....then again, perhaps the same could also be said about Dalinar and his earlier comparisons to Gavilor, who frequently used criticisms of his intelligence, discipline and honor to keep him under his thumb. Hmm. Maybe its more that all the Bondsmiths have a tendency to go big in the other direction in response to struggling with insecurities they feel they should be 'better than.' Must contemplate more. Food for thought).

So actually I think I may have changed my mind here and talked myself around from the start of the post. I was initially saying I don't think it was intentional and MAY have been subconscious, but following the train of thought above, I think actually a strong case could be made for it being subconscious. Where I was originally going with this was the fact that Ishar didn't seem to have any thought of the Heralds needing any kind of replacements, successors or even support system until around when they started talking about abandoning the Oathpact, so it wouldn't have been likely IMO for him to prepare or even consciously influence the development of the Radiants towards cultivating them as potential successors or replacements.

However, I also think that Tanavast was not particularly....particular, in the development of his magic, or his role in things. At least not compared to a lot of the other Shards. I think he had a broad overview of how he wanted his power doled out or represented, that he was intentional in wanting checks and balances on the Surges, but I don't think his mindset was particularly geared towards creating a meticulous framework himself. He seemed pretty comfortable letting Ishar handle the heavy lifting in regards to the shaping of the Oathpact and figuring out the details, and just lent his power where and when needed in order to actualize it all. Similarly, the spren mimicking his granting of the Surges via Honorblades was something that happened organically, based on the intentions of the tiny split off pieces of his power gained sentience....the formation of the Knights Radiant caught even him by surprise and was not part of any grand design on his part.

Thus, given that the Nahel bonds in general most directly mimicked and drew upon the nature of Connection, the unique power of Bondsmiths and Ishar....yes, Ishar potentially played more of a role in shaping the HOW of Surgebinding on Roshar, than even Tanavast himself. But even if we find it unlikely that he would consciously set out to build in contingencies for potential successors at the start of the Oathpact, or the formation and early structuring of the Knights Radiant and the progressive nature of their bonds with spren....

If we look at Ishar (much like various Bondsmiths, even including Melishi) as a figure tasked with the enormous burden and responsibility of acting as the lynchpin for the Oathpact just as Bondsmiths act as such for the Orders as a whole....and we factor in these individuals perhaps having a predisposition towards insecurities that uniquely make them able to relate to, understand and connect to other individuals en masse, while at the same time feeling a pressing need to overcompensate and present themselves as larger than life figures capable of bearing the weight of such a responsibility....

Then it actually makes a lot of sense that even from the start, Ishar might have wrestled with fears of not being equal to the task before him, failing to live up to what everyone else needed of him and believing that others might be better suited for his role, even if he was never willing to admit it out loud because he also attached much of his self-worth to BEING in that role.

And thus, its actually pretty plausible to me that subconsciously, even thousands of years before he started TALKING about looking for replacement Heralds, he was always hoping for someone to relieve him of this burden, take over for him, or even just viewed it as a necessity due to a deep-rooted belief that he would ultimately fail....and so without even realizing it, when drawing the initial blueprints for the Oathpact - and the Radiant Orders derived from the Heralds - and just basically getting Honor's approval before being given the greenlight and access to his power to make it all happen....he absolutely did build in a potential road to elevating later Radiants to Heraldic status.

(I've also been mulling the possibility that however things go after/during the next Return, whatever new role the Heralds end up taking in this new, unprecedented cycle, we might end up seeing at least a few more of the Heralds replaced by successors over the next five books. Especially given the possibility that Retribution's influence might extend at least for a few centuries, judging by the glimpses we've had of Rosharan Knights in the space age. I would not be shocked to find Taln and Ash as two of the few remaining original Heralds by the end of Book 10, with the Heralds still around in some fashion by the time of the full cosmere space age, but now including more of the "modern day" Rosharans - Shallan, Renarin, Rlain, Jasnah, Venli, Szeth, Navani and Lift all being potential prospects. Adolin's the real wildcard for me. With Bo-Ado-Mishram released and Maya potentially restored enough for him to finally swear Oaths, but also the new nature of their bond being predicated on not saying Oaths, he's simultaneously both the most and the least likely to someday join the Heralds IMO....it depends entirely on how much and in what ways the Heralds' role and nature of the Oathpact evolves in the next five books. I could see it going either way). 

 

Edited January 18, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[RedBlue]

4 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I'm actually very intrigued by the notion that this is a Bondsmith trait in general, similar to how Windrunners struggle with self-care and are prone to self-sacrificing martyr tendencies, as Navani IMO also displays this trait, (albeit to a lesser degree, and with her evolving past it earlier in her character journey than Dalinar. Also, in her case I'd say it also could be overcompensation due to struggling with her insecurities about others not viewing her as a 'real' scholar....then again, perhaps the same could also be said about Dalinar and his earlier comparisons to Gavilor, who frequently used criticisms of his intelligence, discipline and honor to keep him under his thumb. Hmm. Maybe its more that all the Bondsmiths have a tendency to go big in the other direction in response to struggling with insecurities they feel they should be 'better than.' Must contemplate more. Food for thought).

I think you’re right — it’s a pattern that Radiants in the same order will often struggle with inner demons that fit a particular theme. The Bondsmiths and their tendency to take over, the Lightweavers and their self-deceptions, the Skybreakers and their blind obedience.

As I see it, the Windrunners’ problem is not necessarily about martyr complexes, but more broadly about taking care of themselves. Teft needed to overcome his addiction, and Sigzil needed to find a way to lead without being crushed by the weight of responsibility.

But they are patterns with breaks in them. Lopen’s journey isn’t about self-care, it’s about learning how not to be a jerk by accident.

I think Navani is another exception. Dalinar and Melishi were classic ‘big men in charge’ types, with a tendency to make important decisions on behalf of other people whether those people liked it or not. Navani, in contrast, is used to behind-the-scenes administrative work. In her engineering projects, she generally organises and oversees teams of researchers rather than inserting herself into the middle of the project, even though she has the skills to do so. She has no problem delegating power, and doesn’t particularly want it.

It makes sense that the flexibility built into the systems of Oaths will result in patterns of behaviour with occasional exceptions. Most types of Radiant spren seem to have favourite types of humans they prefer to bond, but when circumstances push a spren to make an unconventional choice of Radiant, you get someone who approaches the same set of Oaths from a different angle.