Known or speculative rules for Knight Radiant Obstetrics?

[Krenn]

So,  I'm only asking this question in a general sense, and the general answer might not even apply to any given specific situation which may or may not exist....  I'm not suggesting anything about any specific character, here.

But, in terms of how Stormlight and Towerlight actually work, and how Knight Radiant healing of themselves or others works....

Do we know anything about how pregnancy and obstetrics hypothetically works for female Knight Radiants with a reliable source of stormlight/towerlight ?

Riffing on that topic, I can think of the following sub-questions just off the top of my head:

Like, can you do C-sections with shardblades?  If you're already full of stormlight, is it even possible to HAVE an obstetrics emergency which would require a C-section, or does Stormlight guarantee a smooth and easy delivery?  Can stormlight be used to induce labor deliberately?  Can the fetus be healed with stormlight just as easily as the rest of the mother's body can be?   Does nursing a newborn infant while filled with stormlight have any odd side effects?  Do pregnant mothers actually 'need'  to eat food in order to grow an 8+ lb baby, or could they survive for the entire pregnancy just on stormlight/towerlight?   

What if you tried to speed the pregnancy UP?  If you had the correct surges applied at the correct time, could you get pregnant with octuplets,  or speed an entire pregnancy up to finish in only a couple of days?  Hypothetically, if you, say, received an involuntary c-section  from being struck with a ballista during combat, would the fetus grow back if you were filled with enough stormlight at the time?   What if you accidently/deliberately cut out a five-month premie fetus , grew a replacement fetus really fast, and then put the original fetus BACK IN?  Would that create twins?

Was it ever established whether/how-much  stormlight acts as a painkiller, including for 'natural' pain,  like muscle exhaustion, touching a hot surface, or any aspect of pregnancy and childbirth? 

And then of course we get to all those questions if a Knight Radiant healer is treating a pregnant patient who ISN'T herself also a knight radiant...   

And thinking about that, now I'm also wondering about neat tricks involving surrogacy...  Like what if a female knight radiant healer specializing in Obstetrics has a pregnant patient in front of her, where the mother JUST died, but the fetus isn't dead YET?  Hypothetically, could she set her own shardblade to be a scalpel,  and then just.. cut both their wombs open, and simply move the fetus into herself, even though she wasn't herself previously pregnant?  Could she 'heal' herself by just... attaching a placenta that wasn't there a minute ago?Would it also be  an option to just heal the dead mother into a vegetative state to protect the pregnancy?

I have... so many questions.   Do we have previously established rules that cover ANY of this?  The Coppermind seems to suggest that healing dead people back to a vegetative state is an option, at least...  for those orders with the Surge of Progression, which most don't have.

Edit:  It looks like this thread answers SOME of the questions....  Word of Author is that in-utero healing is possible, at least...

Edited December 8, 2024 by Krenn

[Sophrosyne He/any]

forgive the quick answer I'm still working

Shardblades can cut dead things so you'd not able to do any kind of surges on a living mother.

I read some WoBs a while back that imply Stromlight healing would help an incubating fetus.

 

going directly to what I think the heart of your questions are though, Stromlight heals but is not a painkiller so birth and c-sections would still hurt but you can suppress the healing to some extent or simply wait to inhale. I doubt it'd induce labor or let a Radiant complete another's pregnancy HOWEVER because the healing matches yourself perception an already pregnant or recently pregnant Radiant may be able to game the system. 

Wish I had time to say more but I'd be willing to bounce ideas with you when i have free time!

 

 

[Krenn]

interesting... see, I would think that "I want to be pregnant"  and "my oath requires me to protect my unborn niece" would be sufficient to transplant a fetus.... that seems like 'enough' perception of yourself.  Especially if you're an OB/GYN who 'understands'  how your own womb works,  so 'attaching' something to it doesn't seem too odd....

Let me know when you have more time for longer answers, I'd love to hear more of what you're thinking.

Edit:  Also, I'd forgotten that Shardblades technically only 'paralyze' living non-vital flesh, instead of 'cutting' it.  so I guess we'd need a normal scalpel instead of a RadiantBlade.  Or maybe if you used both in parallel, side-by-side? The shard-scalpel kills the pain receptors, and then the real-scalpel cuts the flesh?

Edited December 8, 2024 by Krenn

[Krenn]

Reading through the various forum arguments about how stormlight self-healing does or doesn't work,  and I didn't find MUCH about the topic,  but at least one person did propose that stormlight 'might' be acting as a natural abortifacient if you didn't 'believe'  that your true self 'was or should be' pregnant.

The obvious counter-argument being advanced was that doesn't work with menstrual periods, so why should it work with pregnancy?

On that topic,  I have a proposed related question:  Can you use stormlight to 'heal' a problem you can't see, and don't know you have,  aren't specifically thinking about, and aren't intentionally trying to heal?

Like, let's see you're one of the  rare people who was born with 3 kidneys.  But you don't KNOW that you were born with 3 kidneys.  In fact, you may not even have a clear understanding of what a kidney actually is, or that most people have 2 of them.

And then you become a knight radiant, and infuse your body with a great deal of stormlight.   Do you automatically 'self-heal'  into having 2 kidneys?

I'm inclined to say that the answer is no, you don't.   In order to 'remove' the third kidney, you would have to read a medical journal, examine some cadavers, obtain a clear understanding of what a kidney is and why people only have two of them, then either scan yourself non-invasively or have your abdomen cut open while you looked through the hole with a mirror....   And then you would have to see the kidney, realize it wasn't supposed to be there, and intentionally burn stormlight to make it go away.  or even have someone physically cut out the kidney and remove it, and then you would need to intentionally heal the cut in such a way as to not produce a replacement 3rd kidney.

I suspect that pregnancy, or menstrual cycles, work the same way...  that you can't use stormlight to start or stop those processes unless you know exactly what you're doing to your own body, and honestly and specifically believe that your body shouldn't  be in whatever it's 'current' state is, but should instead be in some other state.   So, if you don't know that you are pregnant, you can't use stormlight to stop being pregnant.  Unless you accidently take a cannonball to the abdomen, in which case, yeah, it's possible that when you replace your entire abdomen, it might go back to it's "last known good" state, which might not include pregnancy. Maybe.

On the other hand...  If a highly skilled female knight radiant, with healing surges, and OB/GYN training, who knows EXACTLY what's she doing and why she's doing it....  If she WANTED to get pregnant,  it's possible she could just have sex with her husband, and then... force the fertilization event(s) to happen.  Possibly producing octuplets, even.  OR she could do the reverse, and if she knew exactly what she was trying to accomplish, maybe she could prevent fertilization.   But I don't think she can do it accidently or without any awareness at all.

A related test on that subject would be... do male knight radiants who are filled with stormlight still need to shave?  if they're not specifically thinking about NOT growing a beard... does the beard keep growing, even though they still intend to shave it off every morning?

Another example is mental illness...  I seem to remember an argument that Kaladin might possibly be getting 'temporary' depression cures when he's actively filled with stormlight...  but his brain has never permanently re-ordered itself so that depression is no longer a thing his non-stormlight-infused brain suffers from anymore.  Either because stormlight can't do that, or because Kaladin doesn't know that it's possible to do that, or where to even start with the brain surgery if it were possible. 

Edited December 8, 2024 by Krenn

[Sophrosyne He/any]

15 hours ago, Krenn said:

interesting... see, I would think that "I want to be pregnant"  and "my oath requires me to protect my unborn niece" would be sufficient to transplant a fetus.... that seems like 'enough' perception of yourself.  Especially if you're an OB/GYN who 'understands'  how your own womb works,  so 'attaching' something to it doesn't seem too odd....

The key here is that your wants are irrelevant (largely) to the healing. we see characters with major disabilities not heal because it became part of their self-perception. Which is why I figure someone who already views themselves as pregnant would be able to do that carry another's child. [Dawnshard]

11 hours ago, Krenn said:

The obvious counter-argument being advanced was that doesn't work with menstrual periods, so why should it work with pregnancy?

again, it's perception. You know your menstruation come every so often, you know what it's supposed to be like, how long it lasts, etc. so it continues even if you get infused with stromlight.

  

11 hours ago, Krenn said:

I have a proposed related question:  Can you use stormlight to 'heal' a problem you can't see, and don't know you have,  aren't specifically thinking about, and aren't intentionally trying to heal?

Like, let's see you're one of the  rare people who was born with 3 kidneys.  But you don't KNOW that you were born with 3 kidneys.  In fact, you may not even have a clear understanding of what a kidney actually is, or that most people have 2 of them.

And then you become a knight radiant, and infuse your body with a great deal of stormlight.   Do you automatically 'self-heal'  into having 2 kidneys?

 

Welcome to the unknown. if healing matches your physical self with your mental self what happens if you have no mental self? We don't know.

Here's how i've come to understand it.  in the case of a physical injury, your mental image is what is matched by Stromlight healing. that's not what you WANT to be. but what you think you are. The other night I had a housemate (thinking there was a break in) Yell to me. "Who is it!?" Automatically, without thought or pause I said my first name, even though she calls me something different. That is my mental image. The name I go by "Sophrosyne" Isn't me no matter how much I want it to be. By that same token, it doesn't matter how much you WANT to grow back an arm or be pregnant if you know you aren't it won't happen, conversely, I  think that upon getting a positive pregnancy test or hearing your babies heartbeat and internalizing "I'm pregnant" then the Stromlight will protect the fetus as if it was part of you.

See Rysn and Lopen.

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by Sophrosyne
Fixed misquote

[Krenn]

33 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

 

The key here is that your wants are irrelevant (largely) to the healing. we see characters with major disabilities not heal because it became part of their self-perception. Which is why I figure someone who already views themselves as pregnant would be able to do that carry another's child. [Dawnshard]

again, it's perception. You know your menstruation come every so often, you know what it's supposed to be like, how long it lasts, etc. so it continues even if you get infused with stromlight.

 

Actually, I believe Lift may have been on record as not knowing or believing that, but it happened to her anyway.

Also, I think one of the quotes in your last reply may have gotten Garbled?  I don't see any text in it.

One of the interesting questions, to me,  is whether not a knight radiant could hypothetically graft an 'extra' arm,  or 'extra' finger, onto their body,  if they just picked one up from a fresh cadaver, made two cuts, and then pressed it against their body and tried to heal.

I'm... not absolutely certain that attempting that 'wouldn't' work.   You might not be able to feel the third arm, or control it, and it might gradually fall off as your body slowly 'healed'  back to the 'correct'  configuration, and I need to do a lot more research.... but I'm inclined to think that maybe, just maybe,  as long as you were actively burning power and thinking that you were trying to attach a third arm to your body....  you might be able to at least prevent the third arm from rotting, and to keep your own blood flowing through it.  temporarily.  For a few minutes.  While you concentrated.  Kind of like giving the third arm the blood-based equivalent of CPR or an emergency blood transfusion.  In fact, that's  really interesting question...  What happens if you try to perform CPR or give a direct blood transfusion to someone else, while burning your own stormlight?

but anyway, I  suspect that the same logic applies to transplanting a fetus... as long as she actively concentrates, and maybe uses an external healing surge to help,  I think a female knight radiant might be able to make the transplant work for a few minutes.   IF she were transplanting a third arm, then the moment she stopped concentrating, it would probably start to fall off,  because that's obviously not supposed to be there....  But a transplanted fetus?  IF the fetus 'thought'  it was supposed to be attached to a womb, but didn't know or care which womb,  and if the female knight radiant didn't have any particular strong objection to the fetus being there, and she figured that a fetus being inside a womb at least made basic sense.....  I can't prove it, obviously, but it does seem at least conceivable that the fetus might be able to stay there, and remain healthy, until such time as the surrogate knight radiant specifically and intentionally decided that it shouldn't be there.

edit:

Oh man, do you know what would be a really interesting question?   Hypothetically, if someone had a prosthetic wooden or metal arm prior to becoming a knight radiant, which they honestly considered to be part of who they were....

Could they 'heal' their own prosthetic when it took damage? while still keeping it 'as' a prosthetic?

Edited December 9, 2024 by Krenn

[Duxredux he/him]

Huh. I just wrote something out about Radiant pregnancy on another Q&A and hadn't seen this one. My answers are kind of all over the place, and as a father, my information may be limited.

First, the language that Brandon uses quite on often in the WoBs is that Cognitive perception imposes limitations on Spiritual based healing. Filter gets used too, but limits also is used often. That makes me think that healing is not always simply the way you think, and that you can't get too far from your Spiritual Ideal.

Quote

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Next, Radiants can at times subconsciously modify their own Spiritual Ideal and then heal to the modified Ideal. Some oddities that we've seen, likely including the Reshi king, may fall under this category. The spren bonds enables this modification when this would not work for a patient that they are applying Regrowth to. Personal modification is easier than modification of another.

Quote

Questioner

A character in The Stormlight Archive who eventually was able to heal of a wound. An old wound, and normally healing old wounds, with Regrowth, can't be healed.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a limitation of healing someone else, versus healing yourself. Healing someone else is a weaker method, at least as it's understood by the Radiants currently. Figuring out how to make Regrowth fix older wounds is more difficult. When you are highly Invested in such a way that you have a spren bond, then you are able to kind of rewrite your Spiritual self to better match your Cognitive self. Basically, what your soul is better comes to match your perception of your soul and who you are, and who you want to be becomes more important. And because of that, the Radiant bond is able to heal things and even change physiology that normal Regrowth wouldn't be capable of doing.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

As for some of these other things... Regrowth is a subset of the Surge of Progression. The accompanying power of Growth allowed Lift to grow full trees from seeds in a matter of seconds/minutes. While we haven't seen Radiants utilize this on anything other than plants, the Fused Brand with Progression use it to form carapace weaponry and armor on command so at least localized acceleration is plausible. There may be further checks on this because healing is determined by both the Radiant and the patient - and an external person healing someone often is less effective than personally healing oneself. So I'm going to give the caveat that many of these more... unusual surgical procedures are much less likely to work when applied to a patient rather than a Radiant applying it to themselves.  For example, I doubt a Radiant could forcibly age an enemy combatant into a geriatric barring the answer of throwing a ludicrous amount of Investiture at the problem. Because age is a component of the Spiritual Ideal, I'm also hesitant as to whether or not any checks were put on this power by Honor and Cultivation considering microkinesis was specifically curbed. Warbreaker and Mistborn spoilers (since I haven't seen Krenn post anywhere outside of Q&A and Stormlight, and these are big spoilers)

Spoiler

Likely a notable exception to a third party healing someone is a Returned using their divine Breath to perform a healing which probably can and will override personal volition in the same way that Vasher forcibly endows his Breaths on Denth but boosted.

As a side note, I suspect that the mutability of the Returned may be that they have more control over their Spiritual Ideal similar to the earlier WoB about Radiants with a spren bond.

As for aging someone into oblivion, see TLR.

For menstruation, as noted, Shallan complains about how she still gets her period even though she's a mythical Knight Radiant. Stormlight acting as a painkiller during childbirth probably also is out because it's normal - though the mother won't get nearly as exhausted from the contractions. In general I don't think Stormlight will "heal" the body actually functioning properly as it should. For example, here's a WoB that says a taser may work just fine to stun someone with healing abilities because the muscles are acting perfectly normally as they should when receiving electrical impulses - though he left himself room to reverse that.

Quote

ShadowBlaze

If a gold Ferring got electrocuted, would he get paralyzed and/or heal and react normally?

Brandon Sanderson

So he gets electrocuted. You're asking does Cosmere healing prevent you from being stunned by a taser?

Huh, what a good question. I'm going to say, and I could contradict this, so this is Word of Brandon canon until I contradict it, you could still stun them with electrical stimulation of muscles, because it's not doing any harm and it's just how muscles normally work. So I think that's a good workaround.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

As for the prosthetic question, Mistborn era 2 spoiler,

Spoiler

The Kandra are currenly looking into if the Malwish masks are part of their Identity. My guess is that even if you view yourself as having a prosthetic, that doesn't make it part of your Spiritweb. Probably not likely to start healing it. You have to really view it as part of your self, which seems difficult for anyone that is likely to perform routine maintenance on the prosthetic including cleaning the joint to the body. Pulling off your arm or leg or phantom limb syndrome may make it difficult to consistently view a prosthetic as really part of yourself. It might be part of your character image, similar to how when Scadrians die their souls are often wearing the clothing they died in and their cognitive aspect will create clothing out of the substance of the mind, but that doesn't make it part of you. Kaladin might view the spear as an extension of himself, but that has never let him repair all those spears he's broken over the years.

With the artificial twins, I'm guessing it would be substantially more complicated than removing the fetus and putting it back in. For natural twins, identical twins have to split within the first 3 days after conception in order to have their own placenta and amniotic sac, otherwise by day 8 they may share the placenta and amniotic sac with all of the accompanying complications. That's long before most mothers realize they are pregnant. By week 4-6 for monozygotic or dizygotic twins, there's questions of if Progression will sort out reattaching the first fetus to the placenta and reform the amniotic sac because by this point the body has setup the placenta(s) and amniotic sac(s) for the expected number of children - it shouldn't have any others in there. Forcing octuplets is not something I would expect Regrowth to do, as that's ovulation far from the average and I don't think that would be normal for that many monozygotic splits either. Progression might be able to do it - again with the caveat that a Radiant performing on themselves has more control over their Spiritual Ideal than Investiture applied to a third party. Pregnancy is a whole hormonal shift with changes all over the body - it's waaay more than just a fetus getting installed, the body needs to make a lot of changes to accommodate growing another person. Real estate adjustments is just the tip of the iceburg. 

In general though, I suspect that for most of these experiments the mind twisting necessary to make them possible as a function of Regrowth is waaay harder than is posited. How long did Kaladin keep his Shash brand despite actively wanting to have it gone? I would think that subconscious decision had much more weight than something like "I wanna see if I can have a third arm", never mind the skeletal structure changes necessary to make a third arm be anything other than vestigial. You'd have to have more than a few screws loose to look at a dead arm and legitimately think "Yup, that's mine. It goes aboooout here" or to believe you are someone else. You almost certainly couldn't graft to someone else who didn't want it, even if they were unconscious, barring a huge amount of Investiture.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Duxredux
clarity