If a Phoenix has a genetic disease, is it reborn with it every time? and other fantasy questions.

[Just_a_Fan he/him]

If a phoenix has a genetic disease, is it reborn with it every time?

how would one truly slay a Phoenix?

would body fluids work for water breathing magic?

a qna discussions for various fantasy questions.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Just_a_Fan

[TwinStorm He/Him]

6 minutes ago, Just_a_Fan said:

also, how would one truly slay a Phoenix?

I thought phoenixes were reborn if they burned away in their flames only. Am I insane?

[Just_a_Fan he/him]

42 minutes ago, TwinStorm said:

I thought phoenixes were reborn if they burned away in their flames only. Am I insane?

oh. lemme go re-read Wikipedia.

edit: it seems that they just combust into flame when they die. so no, you can't just kill it.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Just_a_Fan

[Throw TheLiving Silverware he/him/il/lui]

If the phoenix that gets out of the flames is the exact same individual as the one before, then it should have the same DNA and therefore any genetic diseases that come with it.

However, those diseases are generally related to mistakes in the copying of parental DNA during the conception. And I'm not sure phoenixes procreate. (If they did, then the world would be quickly covered in phoenixes since none of them will ever die.) So unless we assume a phoenix was originally created with a genetic disease (how are phoenixes born, btw?) this is a case that should never happen.

 

Well, that is until you realize phoenixes are fictitious creatures (sob) and therefore their biology is entirely left to the imagination of whoever decides to do something with phoenixes.

So if you ever write a story that has phoenixes in it, you could decide that phoenixes do have genetic diseases and are reborn with it. You could decide that they can get genetic diseases at every new resurrection if something goes wrong. You could even decide that phoenixes use the energy coming from Swiss cheese to combust, somehow. It's your imagination, you are free to use it however you want.

 

TLDR: I don't think so, but if you want them to then they will.

[Just_a_Fan he/him]

@Just a Silvereye what body fluids would contain enough water for water breathing magic or tools to work? Like, blood is oxygenated, but what about...

Quote

Realises the lack of sfw fluids found in a creature other than blood.

Uh... Like, could you use it to hide in an outhouse or something?

[Lord Stormer]

I'm going to answer your question from an (aspiring) author's perspective.

The creation of fantasy magic is really an art of balancing reality and wishes. We love to leap over reality, but vaulting too far high would abandon storytelling. You can't have magic systems too powerful, or the conflict would fall apart. You can't also sacrifice your system to hard logic as well. What if the One Ring only turns the body invisible and not the wearer's clothes? That would be absurd.

Sanderson's Three Laws of Magic - you know them.

I am outlining a story (terribly long outlines) where eight near immortals - they can die but can resurrect - lives precariously in a planet ruled by another immortal, who has the only weapon that can kill them. This One wants to leave this prison planet. I wrestle with the mechanics of resurrection and what happens between life and death for these eight. A few months ago I'd proposed that the Eight are immune to damage, but that would break the plot, so I created this weapon owned by the One. However, I wanted that the Eight lose all their memories at death for conflict purposes. This is where it got interesting. I discovered that I cannot impose full amnesia because it's not intuitive. How do they knew the language and their names? Therefore I opted for a partial amnesia, where they had fragmented memories. They have their outfit, know their name, and parts of the language. I found that satisfying, but I still want finer input. The art of balancing reality and wishes.

Let intuition fill in the blanks, because readers are intuitive beings. The fundamental aspect of fantasy is the alteration of nature, and therefore magic systems are not accountable to the mechanics of real physics or any other sciences.

For your questions, I have suggestions.

1. For the genetically diseased phoenix, you would want a coherent explanation why the genetic disease recurs. It is not very intuitive. The phoenix should be reborn anew by default because the essence of resurrection is a gift of a new body.

2. I believe you mean that you want to remove the phoenix's ability to resurrect. I could write that the phoenix has enough suffering on its life that his soul decided to forfeit further incarnations. Disheartening. That assumes that the soul lives between incarnations, so it's intuitively sound.

3. I can't really understand your intent, but I see the forced imposition of hard logic here. If you write a book about water breathing magic readers should be able to ignore that question and assume that your character's body fluids can adapt seamlessly to the magic.

The high ridge between magic and logical soundness is a challenge for all fantasy enthusiasts. How do you make the magic powerful, sound, useful, and magical?

Edited November 20, 2024 by Lord Stormer

[Silver Phantom he/him]

I have always thought of a phoenix being reborn and it well being born. So yes it was the same memory’s (or it can depending on what version of a phoenix we’re talking an about) but it would still go through the whole cell splitting process. I see it as what singled called organism do but in this case we only get one offspring instead of two. So at this point what ever genetic disease it has would act like any other genetic disease. it will pass down, but there is always a chance for a random mutation that would undo it. This would also explain how the phoenix got the disease in the first place.

for wether or not can you kill a phoenix. I have always thought yes. I go by Horcrux rules, anything can be killed or destroyed, the trick is finding something that is more powerful then the thing you trying to destroy.

As for if water breathing spell would work on bodily liquids I think it depends on the liquid. Water has a lot of oxygen it, so if the liquid has a lot of oxygen in it as well I don’t see why it could work. Like blood for example. But now I am thinking about breathing blood and its freaking me out

 

[Ookla she/her]

When it comes to phoenixes, I usually put in the caveat that if they don't burn, they don't die. So if you drown a phoenix, or kill it above an ocean, it's not coming back. Though tossing a bucket of water over the burning remains of a phoenix won't be enough, because their fire is hot enough to evaporate it before it gets there (this could cause some narrative issues of its own; if phoenix-fire is that hot, does the ocean explode a bit when a phoenix dies at the bottom of the coral reef?).

As for the genetic disease, I'd say that yeah, it's reborn with the genetic disease every time, because each time the phoenix is reborn it's using the same genetic material. Though as @Silver Phantom said, there's no reason why a mutation during cell reproduction couldn't undo the genetic fault. However, I do like @Just a Silvereye's point that if phoenixes aren't exactly born from parents, then where would they get the genetic disease from? A mutation during the incarnation process makes the most sense to me.

My main question with phoenixes is, if a phoenix had a human avatar form and had a child with a real human, what abilities would be passed down from each parent? Would you end up with a person who dies and reincarnates eternally but has no bird form, or a mortal human who just happens to have fiery wings/fire immunity, or something else entirely? Would it change from one child to another? If you do have a person who dies and reincarnates eternally, are they reborn in an egg? Could they stay in the egg until they reach adulthood, and then hatch with all their abilities or faculties, or do they have to go through the entire childhood process all over again (I know which one I would find more annoying...)? If you can't tell, these are questions I've thought about a wee bit.  

[Mattel]

On 11/16/2024 at 12:08 PM, Just_a_Fan said:

how would one truly slay a Phoenix?

I think if you were to make something of an infinite loop of death for a phoenix. Like if you made it so that every time it tries to be reborn it doesn't have enough room and is squished, etc, etc. That is weirdly dark and I apologize but you asked for it! I think that you cannot truly kill a phoenix, but I think you can find ways to make it so that it just can't live.

On 11/19/2024 at 9:48 AM, Lord Stormer said:

I am outlining a story (terribly long outlines) where eight near immortals - they can die but can resurrect - lives precariously in a planet ruled by another immortal, who has the only weapon that can kill them. This One wants to leave this prison planet. I wrestle with the mechanics of resurrection and what happens between life and death for these eight. A few months ago I'd proposed that the Eight are immune to damage, but that would break the plot, so I created this weapon owned by the One. However, I wanted that the Eight lose all their memories at death for conflict purposes. This is where it got interesting. I discovered that I cannot impose full amnesia because it's not intuitive. How do they knew the language and their names? Therefore I opted for a partial amnesia, where they had fragmented memories. They have their outfit, know their name, and parts of the language. I found that satisfying, but I still want finer input. The art of balancing reality and wishes.

That sounds like a fascinating story! I thought of a similar one that one day I will get to, where there are a certain number of immortals, who have the gift of ever lasting life. But in order to get it, they were each given a personality specific curse. One can never trust anyone, and assumes everyone will leave/betray them. They cannot trust anyone. Another cannot take anything seriously, and I think I had others in my mind and now they are gone.

Immortality makes for such interesting stories/writing doesn't it?

Here's a question: If you drowned a phoenix, what would happen? Like when they die they are fully submerged in water?

[Lord Stormer]

I've been waiting to post a reply since early December, but the CleanTalk filter blocked me. I thank one of the Admins who has been helpful.

On 12/1/2024 at 3:02 AM, Mattel said:

I think if you were to make something of an infinite loop of death for a phoenix. Like if you made it so that every time it tries to be reborn it doesn't have enough room and is squished, etc, etc. That is weirdly dark and I apologize but you asked for it! I think that you cannot truly kill a phoenix, but I think you can find ways to make it so that it just can't live.

That sounds like a fascinating story! I thought of a similar one that one day I will get to, where there are a certain number of immortals, who have the gift of ever lasting life. But in order to get it, they were each given a personality specific curse. One can never trust anyone, and assumes everyone will leave/betray them. They cannot trust anyone. Another cannot take anything seriously, and I think I had others in my mind and now they are gone.

Immortality makes for such interesting stories/writing doesn't it?

Here's a question: If you drowned a phoenix, what would happen? Like when they die they are fully submerged in water?

Immortality and invincibility are often conceived as one but of course it's not. One can live without aging but die to unnatural causes. The phoenix problem we have here is more of a thought experiment.

Every magic system has their share of pure logic and the sublime. The powers and abilities, as long it intuitively connect to the reader, they don't need exact logical explanation for everything that happens. That's the invisible glass pillar that allow fantasy to stand. Fantasy's greatest strength lies in its ability to bring in wonder and empower the theme, and thus magic's best role is to back these aspects. When we force thought experiments, these aspects dissolve and the magic system won't be sufficiently accountable. Alright, let's use your phoenix.

When the phoenix dies, it is reborn to an incredibly cramped room where it would suffocate. The cycle continues with attempts to rebirth until death in the same place. If the phoenix wants to be reborn, it needs non-material agent, like a powerful being.

For the case of the phoenix's soul, well I need you to define the rules. I think it is pressing enough to ask this question about the phoenix: Does it command its own soul? Can it choose to be reborn like in another place? I think you need to explain. If it rebirths automatically (similar to Heralds being sent into Braize/Damnation upon death), then it can do nothing to escape its cycle. This disturbing cycle gives me an intuitive urge to find a loophole or way out, and I think that's what you want too. I also want to ask, how does this phoenix can be reborn infinitely without magical cost? Does it have other powers it can use? Anyway, without a way out, this does not make a good story....

Fantasy is so flexible, and that is a problem. You can devise any rules and abilities to enrich the plot, and the only thing you need next is balance. And since you're proposing a thought experiment on a fantasy entity of yours, it's all up to you. I can only give suggestions based on what I know of what a phoenix usually is.

When I began to write I've underestimated the freedom in fantasy worldbuilding. The story I've been working on is a mix of fantasy, science fiction, and space opera, which I admit they are hard to weave. I don't have the luxury of forging fantasical creatures like spren and magical fuel like Stormlight (although we know the Cosmere might end up as a space opera), so I came up with a magic system that relies on the soul's interdimensional connections. After months of brainstorming, yesterday (11th of January) I've finally found a sound solution. It has been arduous, and this is the hardest challenge I've faced. I'm so satisfied.

For aspiring authors, I need to tell you this: giving too much mechanisms and rules to magic dilutes awe and poses an increasing risk of loopholes. Not to say that the rules must bear useful relation to the plot. The terms of the Oathpact and the nature of Desolations are complicated, and since many of the rules are not natural, it is fraught with holes unless the author can handle it.

[Terrisman]

I think you’re understanding the Phoenix wrong. The Phoenix is a magical idea of reincarnation and immortality. If a Phoenix can die than the entire idea of the Phoenix doesn’t work and so it wouldn’t have been able to Be in the first place. The Phoenix is the circle of life so if the circle is broken, it isn’t a circle but rather a line. So no, the Fantastical idea of the Phoenix must be immortal as well. You can come up with creative ways of killing it but in the end it’s the mad murder of the Immortal beast that will end, not the Phoenix. A Phoenix would only truly die if the very nature of life and death died as well.