Shoot me down!

[snote]

I have (probably) listened to the audio-book for Way of Kings and Words of Radiance more times than any single person. (Definitely more than I should have. I only have one audiobook in my Audible Library. It is "Words of Radiance" It shows my time at 1 month, 2 days, 5 hours, and 50 minuets. A lot of that time is where I have listened to it at night falling asleep. What I can promise though, is that I have listened to it, start to finish, at least a dozen or more times. The book is 48 hours in audio form. So, excluding the sleeping time, that sounds about right. I bring all this up, because during the course of listening to "WoR" and "WoK" (probably just as much, if not more. You have no idea how much this series speaks to me. It's like a lock finding a key. Everything in it is right up my alley.) I have came up with some theories that may be odd or may be disproven by things in other books I've not read. I would really appreciate anyone who is willing to take the time to tell me where I have went astray in these ideas. Thank you, in advance.

1: Nohadon is alive and is one of the Heralds. I think this, because if you read the chapter "What we cannot have" where Dalinar goes back to speak with a person who he believes to be Nohadon. Nohadon says some peculiar things. First, he says, "What of your Surgebinders Karm?" The phrasing is worded so that you think he is talking to an administrator about his troops. When, infact, he is speaking to another Herald or a high ranking officer in the Knights Radiant. I believe he is a herald because of his arm being missing. I think some how he wasn't gifted his immortality until after the arm was lost. 

We know that the Knights Radiant followed the precepts of "The Way of Kings" extrapolating the oaths and their honor code from it. We know that Dalinar isn't able to convince him to write his book at this time. Nohadon references the Heralds in such a way that doesn't claim or disclaim his involvement with them. "What will the Heralds see upon their next return?" or something like that. It is just vague and ambiguous enough to go either way.

2. The Knights Radiant caused the High Storm. In a "WoR" chapter heading, that is quoting the inworld "Words of Radiance" it says, " (Random Bondsmith I don't remember) claimed to have found a strategy with which to deal with the Voidbringers once and for all. Time was of the essence and therefore was unable to speak further about the matter. Only saying that it was specific to the powers of the Bondsmiths." That is terribly paraphrased but that's the gist of it. I think what happened is this. The last Desolation came and was more intense than any of the ones before it. So much so that even the Heralds were ready to leave it to fate to handle the next one. The Bondsmiths, in order to save the oaths of their fellow KR, decided to summon this storm, hoping it would wipe out the Voidbringers OR and this is really out there, splinter Honor. In a WoK chapter it mentions that Euratheru was built where it was, so that tehy might be close to Honor. Which, I think, is The Origin. The Eastern version of where the Night Watcher's valley is in the west. The Old Magic and Cultivation could have aided in this process somehow.

Then, as we know, Spren gain more power, the more they are thought of. They are shapped by the thoughts of men. Some seem attracted to it, others seem to create it, and all seem changed by it. Like our ardent couple measuring flame spren. So, the Storm sent by the Almighty becomes his Herald to those left behind. He is circling Roshar, "Invested to the hilt, and looking for a place to stick it all." as he contains the majority of what remains of the Honor shard. So, like was said in a WoB, the shards will gain sentience if they have enough power and aren't bound to a person already. Therefore, the Storm Father gains power as he's prayed to and worshiped. What he was before the recreance is beyond me. Though Eshonai calls him a traitor to her people. The Storm Rider was once a friend to the Listeners and something changed. It may have been he was a storm spren that gained more and more power. Like how Pattern describes being everywhere before he was himself. I know this is really scattershot, but I have a logic and examples that I'm not conveying well.

3. Through different subtle hints, I think that one of the Parshendi will become a surgebinder. Merlain most likely for obvious reasons. Syl says that Listeners can't become Surgebinders. It also says in one of the Listener's song chapter headings that "Broth are we, their meat is men." in refrence to the Spren and how they bond with the two groups. Something about that song stanza makes me think it's a prediction that in the time of the final Desolation, they will gain the ability for some reason. I have a feeling as we learn more about the different groups (Surgebinders and Voidbringers) it will be more clear why some can and can't do these things. Why the Listeners aren't able to and why they might be able to now.

4. The High Storm is a shard pool. Well, just because it fits. It has all the investeture in it. It even has two people bound up walking along with the storm, just like the Well of Ascension in Mistborn. 

5. The Chasmfiends are Voidbringers. So are Sky Eels. Szeth says that it is said that Voidbringers can hold their stormlight perfectly. So, what does a better job of that than a big Gem Heart. It appears they are faster than they should be, which may be them using the stormlight inside them. Also, I think they have their children out on the plains exposed to the high storm because they are trying to get stormlight into the crysalis. If you look at the Voidbringer chart and imagine you are standing on flat ground about 100 feet away some of those symbols look like Chasmfiends looking at you head on. Some of their legs hidden behind other legs and so forth. It's hard to describe, but I see it plain as day. On one of them anyway. The others aren't obviously anything to me.

6. Kaladin's parentage is complicated. I have a feeling that Kaladin's mother is a one eye or a straight up light eyes using drops. As far as we've seen, everyone who has acquired surgebinding abilities is a light eyes. Except for Kaladin. Which makes sense. If you assume that the eye color of the Radiants is passed down genetically after it is changed by infusing. So, for this to be a genetic trait, Kaladin would have to have light eyed ancestry. Everyone says that high Non and low Don can marry and no one questions it. Kaladin never talks about his grand parents on either side, that I remember. So, it's completely possible in my mind that his mother came from a higher born family and due to her having dark eyes herself or being of low birth order she just got to pick her mate but due to politics was forced to use the eye drops.

7. The Parshendi can change into Chasmfiends. There is a story told in WoK that says that a lady went and gathered stones touched by the Heralds and using her dying or dead husband's seed prays to the Almighty and asks him to turn them into her children. My Theory is that, this was some form of blood magic type Hemalurgical procedure that our pal Odium was in on. Thus the Listeners were born, given a dual nature to allow them to understand and destroy humans better than he could on his own. Or maybe like Ruin and Preservation struck a deal. Odium and Cultivation struck a deal to create this new race. Some people that Odium, like Ruin, assumed he could control towards his own goal. Which works, as long as they are holding the right spre. Just like how you have to have a Hemalurgical Spike to speak with Ruin or be influenced by him. So, just like how men can do good and evil, they can do either in the right forms.

8. I know there is more, but it's 4:30AM and I can't think of them right now. Please, just take your time and consider these statements for what they are. Ideas that popped into my head. Some with more reason than others. Some with more weight than others. I honestly think like maybe 2 of these are really true. So, please, poke holes in them. I don't want to continue believing in the wrong ideas. I love theorizing though. So, it would be my pleasure to have you rip apart or add information to my thoughts.

Oh, Super Bonus Theory. Hoid is a champion. Not of a shard though but of Brandon Sanderson. Given only the information he allows him to have. That's why he can say, "He doesn't know everything." yet he seems to have a very large knowledge base and far more understanding about the Cosmere than most anyone else.

Enjoy and thanks again for reading all this. I know the grammar is poor. When I'm more alert I'll edit it up. If it's not torched in my sleep.

[Edgedancer he/him]

1) I highly doubt Nohadon was a Herald, for multiple reasons.A) The Heralds didn´t keep their identity a secret so if he (most likely Jerizen or maybe Ishi) wrote the book it wouldn´t be that old philosophical nonsens it would be the storming bible of Vorinism.

2: They are only on Roshar during the Desolations and they would have better things to do apart from writting it with Voidbringers and all the other stuff rampaging around.

C) If his arm was missing (and I´m taking your word for this because I can´t remember it myself) I see no reason why either his Stormlight-healing or Honar himself shouldn´t have grown him a new one.

 

2) I admiddetly can´t remember any proof of when the Highstorms started but if the Knight Radiants created the Highstorms where did they get their Stormlight beforehand? (Personally I think that whatever he did turned the Voidbringers into Parshmen but that isn´t more than a theory either.)

 

3) Either a Herald or a Squire most likely, yes. Many also believe that Eshonai will become a Willshaper. Furthermore, we have WoB hinting at this change.

 

4) It´s actually more like the mists, Investure in gaseous form.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Edgedancer

[kaellok he/him]

Wow, that's a lot of time spent listening to WoK and WoR.  I start to lose the thread of whatever I'm listening to at about 20 minutes (if not sooner), so audio-books have always been out for me--I can't even begin to imagine how much I'd miss if I listened to it.  You've certainly picked up on a few things, though, so let me respond!

 

1.  During a Q & A session, someone basically tells Sanderson that Nahodan is alive, and the response is...an interesting RAFO.  I'm very willing to believe that he is actually Jezrien.

 

2 and 4.  Disagree with you entirely here, but you make a decent case.  There's a few WoB that help explain Highstorms:

 

 

 

Q:  Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?
A:  The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet.  You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets.

 

 

Q:  Do highstorms get weaker as they move west because of normal meteorological reasons the same way a hurricane gets weaker over land or is it because they slowly drain investiture as they infuse spheres over the whole continent?
A:  Both.  He said that anything like that will be affected by both normal science as well as the magic, but then he added that the highstorms are a natural occurring phenomenon that were on the planet before stuff started going down. I didn't get this confirmed, but I think he meant the stormlight part of the storm was added later, I'm assuming by a Shard.

 

3.  One of the Listener's will almost definitely become a Radiant.  It took me a bit to realize who you meant by Merlain, because the spelling is much less like "Merlin" in the book haha (Mrain, iirc).  However, the current prevailing theory is that Eshonai will become the Radiant--even though she adopted the Stormform, the fact that we've seen Interlude chapters with her identifies a certain importance to her character for the greater story that we haven't seen with Mrain.  Mrain seems likely to become a Squire to Kaladin, in much the same way that many of the rest of Bridge 4 is doing--most especially Lopen regrowing his arm.

 

5.  I tend to think that Chasmfiends aren't actually Voidbringers themselves, but were used and corrupted by Voidbringers and used in war.  Think of how wolves and elves were twisted by Sauron, turned into wargs and orcs.  At least, that's how I currently see it.

 

6.  I 100% think that Kaladin's mother was a mixed light-eyes.  His father was a high-ranking darkeyes, well respected, and of a necessary profession--and when his dad met Kaladin's mother's parents, it was the worst meeting ever.  Worse even than the first meeting with Roshone.  I also think that finding out that his mother is a lighteyes might finally get Kaladin to shut the hell up about it, and just judge people based on who they really are, instead of what they look like.

 

7.  There's a few different WoB regarding the Parshendi.

 

 

 

Q:  Are the Parshendi of Odium?
A:  Not originally.

Q:  Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?
A:  Not originally. 

 

 

 

Q:  Are the Parshendi of Honor?
A:  No

I can't find the other WoB I was searching for.  However, there's a couple that work together to imply that Odium hasn't left the Roshar system, because to do so he would have to leave a chunk of power behind, or rip a piece of himself out--which would be difficult and time consuming and hurt a lot.  Another one is that the Parshmen were on Roshar before the humans, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium arrived.  I've always assumed this means that Odium did something that altered the Parshmen, making it so that they could bind with his spren, but forcing him to stay in the system (because he was trapped there anyway, by some other force...the Oathpact?)  There was a fairly recent post that I saw from a Q & A with Sanderson that I, again, cannot find that said that the Unkalaki (Horneaters) contain Parshendi blood, and that so do another of other races.  The myth you are pointing to is likely to be from this reality.

 

8.  I think have conflicting views of Hoid...multiple theories that paint him as everything from the villain to the hero, and anything in between.  In short, I just don't know!

[snote]

 

 

I can't find the other WoB I was searching for.  However, there's a couple that work together to imply that Odium hasn't left the Roshar system, because to do so he would have to leave a chunk of power behind, or rip a piece of himself out--which would be difficult and time consuming and hurt a lot.  Another one is that the Parshmen were on Roshar before the humans, Honor, Cultivation, and Odium arrived.  I've always assumed this means that Odium did something that altered the Parshmen, making it so that they could bind with his spren, but forcing him to stay in the system (because he was trapped there anyway, by some other force...the Oathpact?)  There was a fairly recent post that I saw from a Q & A with Sanderson that I, again, cannot find that said that the Unkalaki (Horneaters) contain Parshendi blood, and that so do another of other races.  The myth you are pointing to is likely to be from this reality.

First thanks for taking the time to reply. Both of you. I haven't found my way to bed yet and noticed the notification indicator.

Yeah, sorry for what I'm sure is a lot of misspellings of names and places. I am spelling them phonetically as I don't have them in front of me to read, without going through the wiki, which if I weren't so tired is what i would have done.

 

 

 

If his arm was missing (and I´m taking your word for this because I can´t remember it myself) I see no reason why either his Stormlight-healing or Honar himself shouldn´t have grown him a new one.

 

When Dalinar tells Nohadon to write the book, he responds, "Who will write it for me, you're the only man of letters I know Karm. Have you learned to write left handed then?" Dalinar looked down and saw both hands, but the man Nohadon was speaking to was obviously missing his right. Though this could mean he lost use of it as it's shard dead, which just now came to mind.

Response to 5 from kaellok and a response to

I could totally see this being true. That they aren't Voidbringers in and of themselves but were once some other type of Great Shell that was morphed like a Thunderclast out of the sea bed of the pure lake. I just have a feeling that the Voidbringers have been red hearings thus far. So far the only thing we know for sure. The Everstorm will change the Parshmen into something that has been called a void bringer in the past. There is a plea in the Listener's songs to be careful of Stom Form's power. That Void Spren exist and Pattern isn't one neither is Wyndal. Jasnah thought the Parshmen were Voidbringers in Embryo and she's rarely wrong. Yet, Storm Form doesn't seem to make Thunderclasts and those are the only confirmed Voidbringers we have. As they are shown "on screen" three times. Once in the Herald's breaking the Oathpact chapter, once during Dalinar and Nohadon's talk and again during Dalinar's Pure Lake vision, in WoR. Maybe once more, but I can't remember where if so. Then there is the Midnite Essence, which is not a Voidbringer, but Dalinar assumed it was. So, there is a lot of misinformation going around about them. I have a feeling that we won't get a true Voidbring until the end of this set of 5. It's just a guess, but I think this series is best when it's slow rolling the information. Making you salivate and stare longingly at the chance to dive into another part of the story.

Response to point 7 from kaellok

The part about Odium ripping out a piece of himself to leave is really interesting. Especially when you consider the death rattle. "There used to be 3 of 16, but now the broken one reigns." [paraphrasing] Which may be why he's stuck on Braize and how he became stuck there was leaving the planet we think of as The Tranquiline Halls. It could even be that Roshar is purgatory. That this is the desolation and has been for the past 4,500 years. Especially when you consider Honor's words at the end of WoK. "Your history tells you that you won. The truth is, we lost, and we are losing." Which presumably was a previously recorded message. So, at any point in the past 4,500 years. It would have to be true in order to make any sense. When Odium is allowed to rule and reduce people to their more savage tendencies. I wouldn't be surprised if Roshar isn't the battle ground for the retaking of the Tranquiline Halls. That all this spiritual calling for soldiers to fight to retake heaven. Is actually taking place right in front of us. It's just that the idea came from before the move to Roshar and it got passed down as though there was somewhere else to go. Since the Ardents do seem to ascribe spiritual powers to those who raise their calling high enough. Waving your hand and creating food, moving your are and defeating armies. It sounds enough like Surgebinding that it could be. I know that a lot of these are far fetched. Like I say, I just want people to bounce these off of, who know the Cosmere better than I do.

I would believe if anyone had Parshendi blood and they came from those stones. It would have to be the Shin. They find it sacrilegious to walk on stone except for those in Euratheru. So, it would make the most sense.

 

 

8.  I think have conflicting views of Hoid...multiple theories that paint him as everything from the villain to the hero, and anything in between.  In short, I just don't know!

I don't know either. I just always liked the idea as the author seeing themselves as a diety inside the world of their writing. It is completely true when you think about it. Everytime the character pleads with God to stop doing to them what he is doing. The Author typed the words, then ignored the plea. It is what's best for the story at all times. Never what the character wants, that dictates the flow the story has. I would love it if Hoid turned out to be the Champion of "The God Beyond" and Brandon himself was that God. It would also make sense. lol. Though, if it were to be a Shard inside the Cosmere, and we have a WoB saying Hoid is not a shard holder. I want to think he's a champion, and knowledge is his Liege. Though, why would he say, "I have come here looking for an old acquaintance, but I spend most my time hiding from him instead..." then "You can't trust yourself around me Dalinar. I would watch this world burn, with tears in my eyes, if it meant accomplishing my goals..." Then something like, "If [he] finds me he will shatter my soul into a million pieces..." which is what Odium appears to have done with Honor and Cultivation.

[snote]

I'm honestly starting to hallucinate because of sleep deprivation. I was nodding off typing that, so if find any errors please try to over look them I'll finish up my rebuttals and information in general tomorrow. I <3 you guys for humoring me.

[Paragrin she/her]

Pssst. Urithiru, Rlain, nahn, dahn, skyeel, gemheart.

1) I don't think Heralds are on Roshar between Desolations, and IIRC, that was just a "normal" war.

5) I'm fairly sure that chasmfiends and skyeels both have symbiotic bonds with spren- if you look up the skyeel illustration in WoK you'll see them. And gems don't hold Stormlight perfectly either.

[snote]

Pssst. Urithiru, Rlain, nahn, dahn, skyeel, gemheart.

1) I don't think Heralds are on Roshar between Desolations, and IIRC, that was just a "normal" war.

5) I'm fairly sure that chasmfiends and skyeels both have symbiotic bonds with spren- if you look up the skyeel illustration in WoK you'll see them. And gems don't hold Stormlight perfectly either.

Thanks for allowing me to see those words written for the first time. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to those of you who read the books with your eyes. Not your ears, like me.

The Heralds aren't supposed to stay on Roshar between Desolations, but it was implied that the Heralds have been living on Roshar since they abandoned the Oathpact. During the Epilogue of WoK the Herald thinks, "How had he survived this time. The fighting was so intense, this time. If he survived he was supposed to return anyway. Return to that place of fire and pain."

Just as Darkness, the one who has vandalized her own statues, and others possibly hiding in the background, have stuck around. It seems that the Oathpact granted them immortality. They just had conditions. Since they sent one to the torture spot, it allowed it to not dissolve completely or at least that's the theory of the "Immortal King" he speaks to that tells him to leave his sword and not seek each other out. 

What was just a "normal" war? I don't know which bit you're referring to.

You may be correct about the spren and the chasmfiends. I know there are several people who make mention of the fact that they constantly have a following, almost like a school, of spren tagging behind them.

On a side note, there were couple of other things I notice and clarifications I would like to make.

The quote that I was trying to remember for the chapter heading was miss-paraphrased... if that's a thing. It is closer to, "[X] resolved to vanquish the voidbringers upon the following morning. Though that night, a different plan presented itself. When asked [X] explained that it was related to the abilities exclusive to the Herald's themselves. In this matter, it was something only the Bondsmiths could truly understand."

It's still not perfect, but it's more accurate than I previously posted. Then there is.

"After the event that would become known as the recreance, only one of the ten orders chose to remain at their posts." It's implied it's the Skybreakers, the way it goes on is something like, "Stating that they did not abandon their ship because things get messy." or that's how I took it.

So, in my theory that the radiants caused the highstorm, everyone disbands from the orders except one. I think somewhere it also states that there was some trial or execution, some form of riot where the Radiants were attacked by the people or something like that, after the event that I suspect is the creation of the storm. So, everyone realizes the ambiguity of their oaths and leaves the orders. But since the High Spren (those of laws and those bonded to the Skybreakers, who are the embodiment civil order.) value justice over what is right. They didn't have a problem as long as someone paid for the crime. 

We know that the Heralds came first. They existed before the surgebinders because of what Syl says, "The Almighty gave these swords to the Heralds. They let them do what you can. The spren watched what he did and copied it." (Again a paraphrase) So, that means that the spren saw the Honorblades, understood how to bond with men to grant them the power over surges, and how to use themselves as Shards. 

We also know that the oaths the Surgebinders recite were a requirement set up and likely devised by the Heralds (probably with input from the spren) upon learning of them, because of another chapter heading. "One of the Heralds (it says, but I forget which) states that if the surgebinders have been given powers without checks, that he will set about destroying anyone who presents with them. Otherwise it will allow the weak to be subjugated." Then, as I stated originally, during a vision of a Desolation (As it is stated in both the vision and implied from the carnage and remains of voidbringers (thunderclast at least) that litter the streets in Dalinar's line of sight.) where surgebinders are mentioned. That Nohadon had not wrote The Way of Kings yet. Because when "Karm" suggest it. Nohadon says that it is a colossally stupid idea.

Then, the one I found the most compelling, is that the thing that Nohadon does in The Way of Kings, as the title implies, is teach leadership. During his rantings Talenelat starts rambling off which Heralds do what. Then says "X Herald will teach you leadership." When you put all of these things together, it really starts to make a compelling case, in my mind anyway, that Nohadon is both a Herald and still alive. 

It takes me a very long time to search through my ipod for the exact quote I wan't. I type around 65 - 90 wpm (depending on how much time in the last few days I spent at the keyboard typing and how warmed up I am at that exact moment.) and I still have to play it a half dozen or so times, stopping and starting after each sentence, to make sure I have it right. Otherwise, I would gladly just type it verbatim.

When you fortune people see something of note while reading, you are holding your book or tablet but, when I finally hear the parts that make me think these things, I'm at work lifting a box or something and can't mark down the chapter number. I promise though, this isn't just wild speculation that I have based on nothing. There are pieces that fit together when I hear something that is said in passing, that's one sentence long. That goes back to the other sentence I heard in this other part about this thing said in a way to make you take it out of context without the right perspective. Like watching a movie after you know the twist, you facepalm wondering how you missed it. Plus, when you're listening to something it's easier to pick up on what isn't being said. Like what they're leaving out. Which can open a whole mess of implications. Otherwise, why not just come right out and say it without the ambiguity.

Thanks again for reading my stupid long post. If you want to point out a mistake I made or ask me to expand on something please pin point what it is you'd like. I am not great at inferring things in text form.

[kaellok he/him]

The Highstorm existed before the Radiants, and before the Heralds.  Whatever ancient Bondsmith developed something to deal with Voidbringers, it wasn't the Highstorm.  All native life on Roshar has evolved ways to live with and because of the Highstorms--changes that can't have occurred within thousands of years, but rather on much, much larger timeframes.  

 

Nahodan being Jezrien (King of the Heralds) and still alive is plausible.  

 

There is great debate over the Recreance, specifically what caused it and why.  I currently reject every theory that I've heard so far, because I do not believe that even massive psychological horror and scarring that may have occurred by abusing their powers significantly would cause ALL Radiants (except for one order) to betray their oaths en masse when they know that doing so would murder some of their closest friends.  Even if I found your Highstorm creation argument compelling, I don't see in any way how this relates to the Recreance.  

 

There's also some good information in the Wiki page, including all of the epigraphs for WoK and WoR.  Epigraphs are the 1-2 lines at the start of most chapters that don't actually pertain to the direct story, but are part of the larger world-building.  ie, the letter from/to Hoid, the descriptions about the Radiant orders, etc.  You can check that out at http://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs

[snote]

The Highstorm existed before the Radiants, and before the Heralds.  Whatever ancient Bondsmith developed something to deal with Voidbringers, it wasn't the Highstorm.  All native life on Roshar has evolved ways to live with and because of the Highstorms--changes that can't have occurred within thousands of years, but rather on much, much larger timeframes.  

 

Nahodan being Jezrien (King of the Heralds) and still alive is plausible.  

 

There is great debate over the Recreance, specifically what caused it and why.  I currently reject every theory that I've heard so far, because I do not believe that even massive psychological horror and scarring that may have occurred by abusing their powers significantly would cause ALL Radiants (except for one order) to betray their oaths en masse when they know that doing so would murder some of their closest friends.  Even if I found your Highstorm creation argument compelling, I don't see in any way how this relates to the Recreance.  

 

There's also some good information in the Wiki page, including all of the epigraphs for WoK and WoR.  Epigraphs are the 1-2 lines at the start of most chapters that don't actually pertain to the direct story, but are part of the larger world-building.  ie, the letter from/to Hoid, the descriptions about the Radiant orders, etc.  You can check that out at http://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs

 

I still think that the Highstorm was caused by the KR. If you notice, Dalinar never mentions seeing a creature of any type during the ME flashback. Though, during the flee from the Everstorm. When Shallan enters the cavern that holds the Oath Gate. She sees a mural that does have animals that are currently not present in the place where the gate exists. Animals that are considered "mythological" like Lions and I think an Elephant? So, there is more proof that the storm DIDN'T exist, than that it did. IMHO.

Edited December 7, 2014 by snote

[Caladcholg he/him]

4. The High Storm is a shard pool. Well, just because it fits. It has all the investeture in it. It even has two people bound up walking along with the storm, just like the Well of Ascension in Mistborn. 

 

 

What if the High Storm is actually a construct to spread the pool across the continent?  A different method than the ever pervasive mist.

[RawToast225 he/him]

Dude, the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, not the Chasmfiends. That's pretty clearly stated in both books.

Also, Lopen is a darkeyed Radiant now. So is Lift.

Nohadon is not a Harrold because the Harralds depart between destinations. They have to. It's part of their oathpact.

It's possible that the Radiants devised the Storms, but it is more likely that the Storms have been around for much longer than the Knights have. The city that was built for the Radiants (can't remember how to spell the name) was built to weather Highstorms.

I agree with the Parshendi surge binder. There is even a WoB on it somewhere.

Parshendi can't change into Chasmfiends. If they could, they would have escaped the war that way. Instead, they harvested the beasts. Would you harvest your own kind?

Weird theories, man. I like it! Keep it up!

P.S. I think I have read both books more than you have listened to them. I live and breath them and haven't put either down since I picked them up except to read the other books in Cosmere. I totally understand how you feel about them. They changed my life.

 

P.S.S. When I saw the title of the thread I thought "Strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be complete!" Then, I thought "Strike me down and your journey to the void side will be complete!" Just a Cosmere spin on the quote.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Arthur Dent

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Also, Lopen is a darkeyed Radiant now. So is Lift.

 

I'm pretty sure Lopen is one of Kaladin's squires, and is gaining the healing ability as an extension of Kaladin's power. 

 

I have trouble finding info about squires though. They get mentioned here and there [example] but I can never find a place where they get described in any manner of detail...

[RawToast225 he/him]

So for now, I'm going to assume he is going to be a Radiant. When we know more about squires, I'll change my opinion. 

[Moogle]

So for now, I'm going to assume he is going to be a Radiant. When we know more about squires, I'll change my opinion.

 

Tons of members of Bridge 4 spontaneously gained the ability to take in Stormlight the very day that Kaladin spoke the words of the Third Ideal. Lopen never sees or comments on a spren trailing him, nor do any of Kaladin's men. You don't find that suspicious and maybe a sign that they aren't going through the regular spren bonding process?

 

We see men who are working with a Radiant who can also take in Stormlight in Dalinar's vision. They shine much less brightly than the Radiant, and do not seem to be capable of using Surges, unlike the Knight who clearly uses Surgebinding to slide through the water more easily.

 

From what we can tell from WoR, squires are simply those with a bond to a Radiant who gain the ability to take in Stormlight themselves from the bond.

 

We also know from WoB that the Windrunners were unique in the number and power of their squires:

 

Q:  So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

A:  It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with the Order, things that do not add up from simply the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Q:  And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

A:  Yeah... some Orders don't have them.

Q:  But some have more?

A:  Yeah.

(source)

[RawToast225 he/him]

Okay, you've convinced me. I'm wrong.

 

Thanks!

[snote]

Dude, the Parshendi are the Voidbringers, not the Chasmfiends. That's pretty clearly stated in both books.

Nohadon is not a Harrold because the Harralds depart between destinations. They have to. It's part of their Oathpact.

I'm sure the Parshendi in Storm Form are Voidbringers. The fact that Hoid said it to Jasnah pretty much sums that up. You have to realize though that Jasnah "HATES" the Parshendi and would never admit that. She thinks of them as murderous monsters without honor or compassion. So, for her to be the origin of that information is suspect at best. Even if there are a few pieces of information that fit, it's still not certain that they are the one and only race that can be called Voidbringers. So, one thing that is not certain and has not been completely addressed, is if there are other types or races of Voidbringer. We know there are Thunderclast that have been seen in both the visions of Dalinar and the Prelude chapter from the Herald's perspective. So, it is easy to assume that there are other, not-yet-seen, types of Voidbringers. I would say it is not only possible, but seeing as there are still 8 books left, it is very likely. 

The bit about the heralds departing between desolations, we know they are "supposed" to go back to Damnation to endure their torture. Before the abandonment of the Oathpact during the "Final Desolation", that's exactly what they would do, go back to Damnation and return to Roshar to "herald in" the next Desolation. They fought to save mankind, then died or "left" Roshar, to satisfy their agreement. The way I took the opening chapter was that instead of going back to Damnation, they were going to leave their swords and wander around Roshar without looking for each other. We don't know what powers and gifts besides the Honorblades that they were given. If Marsh can live forever with Harmony's influence, why not the Heralds with the aid of Honor and Cultivation?

They also say that if their is one still bound to the Oathpact, who satisfied its demands, that it "might" be enough to maintain it. So, Taln being there, kept Odium bound to whatever his involvement and/or agreement with it was. Since we have seen living Heralds in WoK and WoR, I can only conclude that they have been alive this whole time. As Asha is the woman who "Sits and scratches out her own eyes" (A fan theory that I think was WoB'ed into confirmation. Correct me if I am wrong.) and Darkness is the Skybreaker's Herald. It seems odd that they would have died after and returned before Taln. Why would they come back at all, if they did fulfill the "going back" part? If they left their swords, that are now bound to the Shin, then how is it that they have been given new life? To me, it's much more likely they never left Roshar. They have been alive this whole time, as to avoid going back to the torture chamber.

I am not saying I am certain by any means, I don't know for sure one way or the other. I won't likely have that question answered until Brandon spells out what the Oathpact was exactly or one of the Heralds tells us what happened. So, I am not meaning to come across as positive. On the other hand, I can't find any example that makes this theory wrong. There hasn't been any description of the Heralds dying or being soulcast into statues, like the Kings of Roshar are wont to do. 

As far as Nohadon being a Herald, I have lost the threads of thought that lead me to feel strongly about that one. I may have just forgotten or found out something that lead me to doubt it. Either way, I am not sure about that anymore. I do still however feel the High Storm was formed or caused by the Knights. There is just something about that that makes me want to believe it and the fact that it has never been addressed directly. It's one of those things that should be clear existed in the Shadow Days. Yet, there hasn't been one mention of it. The Storm Light itself is the only thing that makes me doubt it, even a little. Because it's obvious the KR used SL as their investiture source. It had to come from somewhere. I don't know, it could be that the Bondsmiths were the ones who infused the gemstones before the storm existed. Getting their power from Honor himself, they were able to infuse without a source. That's just me reaching for an explanation though.

[mail-mi he/him]

Um, I think there's a WoB that states that the highstorm was there even before Honor and Cultivation. I however am on mobile and am unable to find it.

[gjustice99 she/her]

6. Kaladin's parentage is complicated. I have a feeling that Kaladin's mother is a one eye or a straight up light eyes using drops. As far as we've seen, everyone who has acquired surgebinding abilities is a light eyes. Except for Kaladin. Which makes sense. If you assume that the eye color of the Radiants is passed down genetically after it is changed by infusing. So, for this to be a genetic trait, Kaladin would have to have light eyed ancestry. Everyone says that high Non and low Don can marry and no one questions it. Kaladin never talks about his grand parents on either side, that I remember. So, it's completely possible in my mind that his mother came from a higher born family and due to her having dark eyes herself or being of low birth order she just got to pick her mate but due to politics was forced to use the eye drops.

 

This one makes sense. Especially considering Kaladin himself said that he has a "lighteyes name".

[Oudeis he/him]

Ym and Lift. I don't think either of them are Lighteyes.

[snote]

Sorry, I had to drudge this thing back up, I needed to add something to my Nohadon is alive theory. During Teft's recitation of the First Ideal to Kaladin and his explanation of the "Immortal Words" I think is what he calls them, he explains. "Some King came up with them, he had his wife write them in a book or something." Then during an argument with Elokar, Dalinar defends "The Way of Kings" by saying, "They [The Lost Radiants] didn't write it! They found meaning in it and used it to found their orders!" Once again, as always, these are paraphrasing but they hold to the meaning even if not exact. Which tells me two things. The Way of Kings (if our narrators are reliable) was written by Nohadon and that book was the foundation for the Ideals that lead to the oaths of the KR. 

If those statements are both true. Then in order to be a KR himself, who as was suggested earlier, wrote the book at the end of his life. He would have to have used his teachings to lead to the founding of the KR prior to his writings. As he mentions in Dalinar's vision that he wished all spren could be as discerning as Honor Spren and specifically mentions Surgebinding. Those are suspect events, if in the same vision he said that writing a book would be a stupid thing to do. It was a time for the sword, not the pen. As 9/10ths of the country/world was dead at this point and he called it a Desolation by name.

I think that Nohadon forged the Oathpact with his most trusted friends and family. He used his nature to "unite them" (them being the orders of the KR and possibly the world) and then forge a pact with Honor or The Stormfather, that would allow them to prevent this or mitigate the events from happening in the future. Meaning that Jezrien is Nohadon. Which Dalinar states Nohadon is his Holy Name and the other name Bejeridan? isn't his real name either. Which, now thinking about it and looking at it, could definitely be the Alethi version of "latinisation" of a name. Either way, I still hold to this theory. I may be dead wrong but I'm still not seeing anything that makes me think it's not at least somewhat viable.

[Lirins hand]

Isn't there WoB out there that the storms precede everything from the three shards?  With the only thing that has changed there being the addition of the Stormlight.

 

So, if the investiture wasn't always part of the highstorms, how did people get stormlight before that change was made?  Is that also why they always went back to the stone age after a desolation?  It seems like the Stormlight allows them to keep up their current levels of civilization and the fact that there is a steady recharge at regular intervals makes it common enough for everyone to use (as opposed to a precious resource that must be hoarded).

 

Just to add another theory in here - What if the water leaving the Purelake before every highstorm is tied into how Stormlight gets into the highstorms?  It doesn't seem natural in that no other body of water is affected that way, as they would be if it was simple gravitational pull.  

And the name "Purelake" - what makes it pure?  How is this water different from all the other water?  When it is that large and that shallow with no visible exits, it shouldn't be pure, unless their definition of "pure" is very different from ours.  

[snote]

 

 

Lirins hand Said,Isn't there WoB out there that the storms precede everything from the three shards?  With the only thing that has changed there being the addition of the Stormlight.

No! He didn't say that! Not because I know for a fact that he didn't say that... but because I don't WANT him to have said that! It will completely undermine my theory! Then, I can't come here and keep speculating about how it's real and I'm right! So, no.. that's my final answer!

 

 

So, if the investiture wasn't always part of the highstorms, how did people get stormlight before that change was made?  Is that also why they always went back to the stone age after a desolation?  It seems like the Stormlight allows them to keep up their current levels of civilization and the fact that there is a steady recharge at regular intervals makes it common enough for everyone to use (as opposed to a precious resource that must be hoarded).

 

Just to add another theory in here - What if the water leaving the Purelake before every highstorm is tied into how Stormlight gets into the highstorms?  It doesn't seem natural in that no other body of water is affected that way, as they would be if it was simple gravitational pull.  

And the name "Purelake" - what makes it pure?  How is this water different from all the other water?  When it is that large and that shallow with no visible exits, it shouldn't be pure, unless their definition of "pure" is very different from ours.  

I have wondered about how they got stormlight, if my theory is correct. I remember a passage that says the built Urathiru close to "Honor". So, maybe in the days of the Oathpact they were capable of having their gems filled up by him directly or something strange like that. It makes me curious what those inhuman figures who stride the storm are. Maybe they are some sort of prison for Honor and Cultivation or The piece that Odium sacrificed to shatter Honor, as another theory of mine goes. Since Odium is refered to as "The Broken One". Hate takes a part of you with it. To enact and execute hatered. You have to be willing to lose part of yourself to kill the things you hate. It's a prison that consumes you and forces your hand in a way. So, my thoughts on that, are that to destroy the shards in the way he does, he must be willing to pay any price to see his will done. Just like real hate.

I always assumed "pure" in Purelake came from the shallow, clear water. That is why I never put any extra thought into it. Your theory though, is a really good reason to question it. I had forgotten that the water drained out of the Purelake before a Highstorm. I usually skip over the interlude that's set there. I don't know why but it kind of annoys me. I will have to re-listen to it now, with your theory in mind.

I think that a WoB said that the fish there were possibly one of the magic systems on Roshar. That their special powers weren't just imaginary or mythical. That there might be a reality behind a fish that can help you find things or a fish that is lucky... It might show that their definitely is investiture in the waters of the Purelake. Also, there either once was, or is still a castle at the center. Maybe there were spires of investiture throughout the land. Feverstone Keep, Urithiru, and the Purelake Building may all be something to do with one another. As the only one we know still exists is Urithiru. Errant thoughts, I freely and completely admit, but still, there may be something going on in that vein. Where a dramatic change caused the former systems to break down. I mean you don't call an event "The ending of all things" for no good reason. So Arahetium (Christ I have no idea how that's spelled. I don't even know if it's in the ball park.) could have changed absolutely everything.

I just heavily feel that the Highstorm was created, just as the Everstorm was. If it is the opposite of the Highstorm, it seems like it would be coming from the enemy of the original storms creator. Which, may have been honor, cultivation, or Adonalsium. Nothing would surprise me. Though, for the Highstorm to be a specific attack on the Voidbringers by the KR. That would certainly be an offense worthy of breaking the "life before death" clause. Which is one of the few tenants that all the KR followed and swore to. As opposed to the various other concepts.

Also, there was something somewhere I remember reading about how the storm was part of the planet and why the lands of Roshar took the shape they did. All because it was Adonalsium, not the 3 shards that designed and originally created the inhabitants.

 

[Paragrin she/her]

From memory: Aharietiam.