Some more questions

[Satsuoni]

Right. I am sorry if these questions have already been raised/answered, so just direct me to the posts if that is so.

OK.

Question 1. We all know that Steel/ Iron allomancy allows to push and pull on metals. The question is, how fast does this interaction travel from Allomancer to metal? Does the line change direction instantly if the metal moves, or does it bend when the metal speed is relativistic?

Essentially, what if Brandon's quote about FTL being "built in" into Allomancy is also related to the speed of interactions?

Question 2: Related to the above. Pushing/pulling through time bubbles.

I don't think this was addressed anywhere, so here it is: What is it like when an Allomancer, while inside the bubble, pushes/pulls object outside? Here, it is assumed that an object is either inside or outside the bubble (the definition of an object being possibly linked to Spiritual/Cognitive realms), and cannot be halfway out.

Especially, the question relates to the forces acting on object and allomancer. The possibilities I could think of were:

1. It is impossible to affect object outside bubble. It is not felt, not seen as a blue line, etc. Unlikely, but possible, I guess.

2. The forces equalize with respect to the time, so, if allomancer pushes with force of 10N inside the bubble, 10N acts on Allomancer inside, and 10N acts on the object outside. Assuming space and equal masses of object and allomancer (1kg), and 1 sec of push, 10x bendalloy bubble, allomancer gains speed of 10. For object outside, only 0.1 sec passed, so its speed is just 1. (Total energy loss once the bubble is removed). This kind of removes balance, but possible, I guess. Essentially, for allomancer all objects outside bendalloy bubble would feel n times heavies than they are, and lighter for chromium.

3. The objects becomes one with the allomancer So it, essentially ends up inside the bubble with the allomancer, as far as its time is concerned. Then, of course, the issue of a mobile bubble arises. I mean, if an object is inside bendalloy bubble, for outside observers the object will move with nx speed. And if the object is a suit of armor with human inside? Will human be dragged with 10x speed? Hello, FTL drive Of course, that raises the question of another allomancer outside the bubble pushing on the same object... This possibility also includes the opposite, when allomancer end up outside th bubble while physically inside it.

OK, that is about it. Thoughts? Discussions?

[EDIT] Right, remembered another one. Anyone knows what exactly counts as metals? Are calcium and lithium metals?

Is metallic hydrogen a metal (and, by extension, can Inquisitor see water)?

Edited February 21, 2012 by Satsuoni

[Aeshdan]

Right. I am sorry if these questions have already been raised/answered, so just direct me to the posts if that is so.

OK.

Question 1. We all know that Steel/ Iron allomancy allows to push and pull on metals. The question is, how fast does this interaction travel from Allomancer to metal? Does the line change direction instantly if the metal moves, or does it bend when the metal speed is relativistic?

Essentially, what if Brandon's quote about FTL being "built in" into Allomancy is also related to the speed of interactions?

Question 2: Related to the above. Pushing/pulling through time bubbles.

I don't think this was addressed anywhere, so here it is: What is it like when an Allomancer, while inside the bubble, pushes/pulls object outside? Here, it is assumed that an object is either inside or outside the bubble (the definition of an object being possibly linked to Spiritual/Cognitive realms), and cannot be halfway out.

Especially, the question relates to the forces acting on object and allomancer. The possibilities I could think of were:

1. It is impossible to affect object outside bubble. It is not felt, not seen as a blue line, etc. Unlikely, but possible, I guess.

2. The forces equalize with respect to the time, so, if allomancer pushes with force of 10N inside the bubble, 10N acts on Allomancer inside, and 10N acts on the object outside. Assuming space and equal masses of object and allomancer (1kg), and 1 sec of push, 10x bendalloy bubble, allomancer gains speed of 10. For object outside, only 0.1 sec passed, so its speed is just 1. (Total energy loss once the bubble is removed). This kind of removes balance, but possible, I guess. Essentially, for allomancer all objects outside bendalloy bubble would feel n times heavies than they are, and lighter for chromium.

3. The objects becomes one with the allomancer So it, essentially ends up inside the bubble with the allomancer, as far as its time is concerned. Then, of course, the issue of a mobile bubble arises. I mean, if an object is inside bendalloy bubble, for outside observers the object will move with nx speed. And if the object is a suit of armor with human inside? Will human be dragged with 10x speed? Hello, FTL drive Of course, that raises the question of another allomancer outside the bubble pushing on the same object... This possibility also includes the opposite, when allomancer end up outside th bubble while physically inside it.

OK, that is about it. Thoughts? Discussions?

[EDIT] Right, remembered another one. Anyone knows what exactly counts as metals? Are calcium and lithium metals?

Is metallic hydrogen a metal (and, by extension, can Inquisitor see water)?

On the edit, i would assume that "metal" is defined the same way in Allomancy as it is on the Periodic table until we hear otherwise.

[Satsuoni]

On the edit, i would assume that "metal" is defined the same way in Allomancy as it is on the Periodic table until we hear otherwise.

OK, I should have checked the wiki. From school, I remember hydrogen being kind of intermediate.

Although, looking at the definition, it classifies Silicon as "metalloid", and metals form the vast majority of the elements. It also says:

In the specialized usage of astronomy and astrophysics, the term "metal" is often used to refer collectively to all elements other than hydrogen or helium, including substances as chemically non-metallic as neon, fluorine, and oxygen.

So it is a little unclear.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Question 2: Related to the above. Pushing/pulling through time bubbles.

I don't think this was addressed anywhere, so here it is: What is it like when an Allomancer, while inside the bubble, pushes/pulls object outside?

There is no official answer, but since it would be trivially easy for Wayne to shoot out of the bubbles if he could just throw a bunch of bullets, let them deflect, then pick the right one to Push, I have been forced to assume that you cannot Push/Pull through a time bubble.

[Satsuoni]

There is no official answer, but since it would be trivially easy for Wayne to shoot out of the bubbles if he could just throw a bunch of bullets, let them deflect, then pick the right one to Push, I have been forced to assume that you cannot Push/Pull through a time bubble.

You may be right

BTW, another possibility: the direction of the push is also deflected, so the push is no longer guaranteed to be straight.

An official confirmation would be nice.

[Thor]

Right. I am sorry if these questions have already been raised/answered, so just direct me to the posts if that is so.

OK.

Question 1. We all know that Steel/ Iron allomancy allows to push and pull on metals. The question is, how fast does this interaction travel from Allomancer to metal? Does the line change direction instantly if the metal moves, or does it bend when the metal speed is relativistic?

Essentially, what if Brandon's quote about FTL being "built in" into Allomancy is also related to the speed of interactions?

OK, that is about it. Thoughts? Discussions?

[EDIT] Right, remembered another one. Anyone knows what exactly counts as metals? Are calcium and lithium metals?

Is metallic hydrogen a metal (and, by extension, can Inquisitor see water)?

For Question 1: I would guess that the line is a spiritual/cognitive manifestation due to Preservation, not a physical one, and would therefore not be influenced by relativistic speeds, electro-magnetic fields, or gravitating bodies. It almost certainly isn't actual light (the self propagating EM-field), though I suppose burning Steel/Iron could grant one the ability to see a very specific wavelength (probably UV) that metals give off in the Cosmere. However, this is kind of suspect, as the "blue lines" shown by Steel/Iron only radiate from one point on the object, and travel in one direction (towards the Allomancer). Additionally, the light from the Sun should also have different hues for Coinshots/Lurchers/Mistborn if this were true. I would say that the first idea is MUCH more likely.

Metals: Hydrogen has most of the metallic properties at very high densities/very low temperature (conductivity, characteristic "metal" color/reflectiveness, possibly malleability/ductileness, though I am not too sure on those two.) However, due to the fact that it requires either high density or low temperature is a mark against it being a metal: almost all metals have high melting points. Mercury (and possibly a few others that I don't bother to look up right now) is an exception. I would say that "metal" as defined in the Cosmere (and specifically for Allomancy) refers to the Chemistry definition, with some exceptions (Alluminum and some of its alloys.)

Edited February 21, 2012 by Thor

[Aeshdan]

For Question 1: I would guess that the line is a spiritual/cognitive manifestation due to Preservation, not a physical one, and would therefore not be influenced by relativistic speeds, electro-magnetic fields, or gravitating bodies. It almost certainly isn't actual light (the self propagating EM-field), though I suppose burning Steel/Iron could grant one the ability to see a very specific wavelength (probably UV) that metals give off in the Cosmere. However, this is kind of suspect, as the "blue lines" shown by Steel/Iron only radiate from one point on the object, and travel in one direction (towards the Allomancer). Additionally, the light from the Sun should also have different hues for Coinshots/Lurchers/Mistborn if this were true. I would say that the first idea is MUCH more likely.

Metals: Hydrogen has most of the metallic properties at very high densities/very low temperature (conductivity, characteristic "metal" color/reflectiveness, possibly malleability/ductileness, though I am not too sure on those two.) However, due to the fact that it requires either high density or low temperature is a mark against it being a metal: almost all metals have high melting points. Mercury (and possibly a few others that I don't bother to look up right now) is an exception. I would say that "metal" as defined in the Cosmere (and specifically for Allomancy) refers to the Chemistry definition, with some exceptions (Alluminum and some of its alloys.)

Another point in favor of the lines being mental manifestations is that inquisitors evidently "see" blue lines even though they have no eyes at all.

And aluminum is definitely a metal, since it can be burned. I think the allomantic inertness of alumnium is a side effect of its burning properties.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[Inkthinker]

There is no official answer, but since it would be trivially easy for Wayne to shoot out of the bubbles if he could just throw a bunch of bullets, let them deflect, then pick the right one to Push, I have been forced to assume that you cannot Push/Pull through a time bubble.

Wax? Wayne can't push. Wayne slows time and heals.

Wax pushes and messes about with his weight/mass.

[Commander Spoonface]

Chemically, there are only a few elements where whether or not they are a metal can be called into question:

Meitnerium, Darmstadtium, Roentgenium, Ununtrium, Ununquadium, Ununpentium, Ununhexium, Germanium, Antimony, and Polonium.

I haven't seen any of those in Mistborn. Antimony is actually fairly common- it's been used for cosmetics since ancient times.

The chemical definition of a metal appears to be "an arrangement of positive ions surrounded by a sea of delocalized electrons". Of course, that means absolutely nothing to me. The other definition provided was "an element, compound, or alloy that is a good conductor of both electricity and heat." Another definition is "any of a class of elementary substances, as gold, silver, or copper, all of which are crystalline when solid and many of which are characterized by opacity, ductility, conductivity, and a unique luster when freshly fractured."

Anyway, for the question of what can be pushed or pulled with allomancy, the answer ought to be obvious: Only some metals can be affected by it, and I'd wager probably the majority of chemically metallic substances can't, but most naturally occuring, relatively common metals can. So pretty much any metal that's going to be used in tools, or building materials, etc.

[Satsuoni]

Wax? Wayne can't push. Wayne slows time and heals.

Wax pushes and messes about with his weight/mass.

Right. I always forget the names, so it slips right by me.

Also, I think it is quite obvious that the lines are not light per se. The question is, does iron pulling break relativity, by instantly transferring information (push) to the metal.

[Thor]

Right. I always forget the names, so it slips right by me.

Also, I think it is quite obvious that the lines are not light per se. The question is, does iron pulling break relativity, by instantly transferring information (push) to the metal.

Dunno. It's one of those questions that can't really be answered by us, as readers, as we have nothing to go on. No delay between Pushes/Pulls has been observed so far. However, we wouldn't be able to observe the delay unless the Push/Pull was done on astronomical scales (expected if the P/P are transmitted at "c", like EM and possibly gravity) nor have we observed "lag" at smaller scales (expected if the P/P are transmitted at a speed much much less than "c".) I'd say that the information doesn't break the speed of light and that the range of the lines is too small for relativistic problems to reveal themselves (Vin can only "see" lines from objects at most 50 meters away, iirc.) I suppose being stupidly strong (ala TLR) might grant enough range for relativity to rear its head, if that is even a possible consequence of increased Allomantic strength, as an addition to gaining stronger Pushes/Pulls (and possibly being able to P/P on metals inside of a being.)