Intent Meshing: How Magic Systems Arise

[Moogle]

I was trying to compile a list of all the theories I worked on, and I realized there was never a ful post made on this one. Oops!

 

Most of the credit goes to PorridgeBrick. We sort of worked together on it, and truth be told I'm not quite sure if I came up with it first or if he did. There might have been other people involved, sorry if I can't remember you!

 

Magic Systems

A quick overview of magic systems in the Cosmere yields an interesting pattern. Abbreviations: P = Preservation, R = Ruin, O = Odium, H = Honor, C = Cultivation, E = Endowment, Dev = Devotion, Dom = Dominion.

• Scadrial: 3 systems, Allomancy (P)/Feruchemy (P+R)/Hemalurgy (Ruin).
• Nalthis: 1 system, Awakening (E).
• Sel: 1 system (by WoB), <unnamed> (Dev+Dom)
• Roshar: (unknown, discussed later)

Magic systems arise as either a mix of Shards or else entirely from one Shard. All planets with one Shard really only have one magic system. Can we predict why or how?

 

Here's a few WoBs:

Chaos

Let's say hypothetically we get Ruin, Preservation, and Endowment to create a planet. Would there be *more* magic systems due to Endowment's involvement (think permutations), or would this specifically not work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It could work. There is the potential for more magic systems.

(source)

 

KAIMIPONO

On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

(source)

 

Intent Meshing

The base theory here is that certain Shards are 'compatible' and will mix readily with others. This results in there only being one magic system from the two together. If, however, they're 'incompatible', each Shard gets their own magic system, and a balance system is formed composed of both Shards.

• Ruin and Preservation were utterly incompatible, so you get Feruchemy as a balance magic.
• Devotion and Dominon are Intents that work well together, so they meshed and formed only the one system. (The planet, interestingly enough, decided to make a bunch of sub-systems for different areas though.)
• Nalthis has only one Shard, so there could only be one magic system.

There's really not much to it. It fits the evidence we have so far. But what good is it?

 

Predicting Roshar's Systems

Roshar is special in that it has three Shards on it. This allows for a possible 7 magic systems if all of the Intents of the Shards on Roshar don't mesh well. We could have any of the following: H+C+O, H, C, O, H+C, H+O, C+O.

 

However, we do know from WoB that there's only really "three" systems, though it's more like 30 (presumably it's like Allomancy/Feruchemy where each metal can be considered its own "system"). WoBs:

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

(source)

 

BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemurology) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

(source)

 

Q:  How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

A:  It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?

Q:  If you assume the surges are all one.

A:  Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Q2. It's a science, because anyone can do it.

A:  So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

Q:  That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

A:  Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

(source)

 

Q:  So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

A:  Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

(source)

Keeping in mind that the WoBs are incredibly unclear and vague, here's the consequences of Intent Meshing theory for Roshar:

 

There are 30 systems, but it seems more or less like this is just three systems, each with their own interpretation of the ten Surges.

 

So we have:

• Surgebinding (H+C)
• Voidbinding (associated with Odium - possibly O, O+H, O+C, or O+C+H)
• Old Magic (haven't the slightest clue, though it sounds like they are fabrials maybe?)

Because we know there are only three real "systems", in the context of Intent Meshing theory, we know there has to be one paired couple of Shards, and one opposing Shard. That's the only way to get three magic systems arising from the interactions.

 

So there will be a system of the paired Shards, a system with all three Shards (the "balance" magic like Feruchemy), and a system with the opposing Shard off on its own.

 

Knowing Surgebinding is H+C, then, they have to be the paired Shards, which leaves Odium left on its own.

 

So the theory predicts there will be a system comprised solely of Odium, and one comprised of all three Shards on Roshar. It sounds to me like Voidbinding will be solely of Odium, and the Old Magic will be a combination of all three Shards, but it could easily be the other way around.

 

Also possible is that Surgebinding is H+C+O. The WoB says "Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar."

 

It's possible that Odium could have his spren act to bond and give two Surges to the humans bonded with.

 

Really, though, Roshar is a messy planet for magical interactions. I can see why Brandon hasn't done 4+ Shards on one planet. There'd be a ridiculous number of systems to work through.

 

Problems

The Nightwatcher, who is associated with the Old Magic, is most definitely of Cultivation or of a mix of Cultivation and Honor, since Wyndle refers to her as 'mother'. So the Old Magic would only be associated with Cultivation in that case, which doesn't fit really with our predictions that the Old Magic should be H+C+O or O only. But we know next to nothing about the Old Magic, so it's hard to say if this is actually a contradiction. It's also possible that the Nightwatcher is comprised of H+C+O, but her children (spren of Wyndle's type) are just C+H.

 

Intent Meshing may also not work as simply as two Shards cleanly combining and then being forever combined for magic system purposes. It's possible that H+C could combine cleanly, but H+O could combine cleanly as well but only so long as it isn't H+C+O. This would naturally ruin all predictions for Roshar's systems.

 

The theory is also not very good at being predictive. We simply don't have enough information on what exactly  constitutes Intents that 'mesh' or how to predict they will. Is it at all obvious that Honor and Cultivation should mesh? Not to me it isn't.

 

It does predict that planets with one Shard will only have one system, but this doesn't necessarily mean much. Sel only has one system, but it has tons of regional variations in the systems. Something like Taldain, which we know via WoB has only one Shard held by someone named Bavadin, should have only one magic system - but it could also have multiples for multiple regions.

 

Criticism of this theory would be very welcome.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

[lifts up floorboard] I give this theory a 10/10. No, that has nothing to do with the fact I helped develop it. Nope.

I'm not convinced the Old Magic is actually a magic system at all. All we've heard about it has been related to Nightwatcher's curses/boons (enlighten me if I'm way off base, my memory is very fuzzy here), and nothing about it actually being practiced by humans or any other physical being. So I don't think the Nightwatcher should be a concern for the theory. Still, that leaves us no closer to the actual third magic. Fabrials, because they seem like a HCO system and we've seen a ton of them? Old style fabrials (or their creation)? Horneater lagers? Magic fish?

I agree that it's hard to predict systems with this theory except in the most clear-cut of cases. In general, all intent-based speculation tends to be very subject to interpretation. To me, it seems very natural for Cultivation to meld with both, and for Honor to be opposed with Odium. But I could also see Honor being compatible with Odium as a sort of "Hate those who are dishonourable/evildoers". What we've seen so far of the KR's general mentality doesn't really back that up, but just using the theory of Intent-Meshing alone could very easily go either way.

Porridge out. Back to lurking. [/drops floorboard]

[jefftucker0525]

Great theory! Upvotes for both of you. The only things I immediately notice that I disagree with are it seems that you are mixing magic systems with the Spren, the Nightwatcher isn't actually cultivation, just Rosharians(?) interpretation of her given life in the form of a Spren, though re-reading your post this might be a misinterpretation. Also, just because these combinations are possible, does not mean one or another will have to happen, there are a lot of variables we know nothing about.

 

For example, just because C+O is possible does not mean it is an absolute, maybe C, due to some deep, mathematical formula devised by Brandon became more encompassing to Roshar than the combination of C+O and the Old Magic is purely Cultivation. Yes, multiple Shards being on a planet must cause the making/influencing of Magic Systems, however just because a Shard is compatible to mix with another Shard doesn't mean it will.

 

My reasoning behind this is that Brandon, in some of your quotes, said a Magic system will conform itself to a planets existing Magic System (not anything close to an exact quote, but hey, im lazy) so their must be certain precepts that a Magic System must meet in order to be established on a planet. You pointed out that there are 7 possible combinations, so why would not all of them come into existence unless there is some reason that they cannot do so.

 

Whether the reason is the Planet will not allow it or that the Shards must agree or some other reason I have not the slightest idea. Personally I like this theory a lot and it could really explain a lot about whats going on in the Cosmere, I just want to put in my 2 cents because if you can expound upon it I think it would be perfect, even if it does get smashed to bits by Brandon later on.

[tobar14 he/him]

"Devotion and Dominon are Intents that work well together, so they meshed and formed only the one system. (The planet, interestingly enough, decided to make a bunch of sub-systems for different areas though.)"

 

I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

I'm not saying that your theory is incorrect, its just harder to say anything definite about Dev & Dom's meshing, because we don't know what they were like before they were shattered by Odium. 

[Blaze1616 he/him]

"Devotion and Dominon are Intents that work well together, so they meshed and formed only the one system. (The planet, interestingly enough, decided to make a bunch of sub-systems for different areas though.)"

 

I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

I'm not saying that your theory is incorrect, its just harder to say anything definite about Dev & Dom's meshing, because we don't know what they were like before they were shattered by Odium. 

 

Given the way magic works in the Cosmere, I don't think there's much evidence to say the Selish magic used to be different. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, and if so please correct me, but we already have a magic system which has not changed since the Shard's death: Surgebinding. Even under the possibility that Surgebinding is a combination between two or three Shards, Honor's death seems to have had zero effect on the workings of the magic. Why should Devotion and Dominion be any different?

[Moogle]

I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

While you are correct that something changed, at least in part (though the WoB is paraphrased...), I do think Surgebinding proves Splintering does not necessarily have to do anything to magic systems, as Blaze brings up.

 

Note that, from the perspective of the book Elantris, people had been using AonDor for centuries (the creation of Elantris itself as Aon Rao should imply as much, and Elantris was built hundreds if not thousands of years prior). The Splintering happened an unclear time before Elantris, but given the chasm was a direct result of the Splintering, I should think that the Splintering shouldn't have finished more than a century before. (Sarene says her Seon had served her family for centuries, so the Splintering probably started around/before then?)

 

So the Splintering probably shouldn't have created AonDor at least, and I find it incredibly unlikely AonDor was the only system there pre-Splintering.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Moogle

[tobar14 he/him]

Good points. I remembered reading a WoB that mentioned how they "meshed" together after they splintered, and that might be why shadesmar is kinda funky around Sel. I wish i could find that quote.

[Arook he/him]

Good points. I remembered reading a WoB that mentioned how they "meshed" together after they splintered, and that might be why shadesmar is kinda funky around Sel. I wish i could find that quote.

I wish you could too because a quote saying they meshed together would be an immensely interesting detail.

 

 I think there is WoB that AonDor did not exist before the splintering or at least what Elantrian's do was not possible before.

 

 

However is this the quote you were thinking of?

 

 

 

WINDRUNNER

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I don't know if you can accurately say that the number of magic systems is dependent on the number of Shards invested in a planet. My assumption has long been that the nature of magic depends largely on the local SDNA of the world and it's inhabitants. So, it's how the SDNA interacts with the investiture offered by a Shard that determines what magic systems look like.

 

So, my theory is that Roshar already had spren and surges before the arrival of the 3 shards, but that these came directly from Adonalsium's investiture. After the shattering, there may or may not have been residual investiture left, so the magic maybe became dormant or diminished until the arrival of new shards, which became the new power sources for surges, fabrials, etc.

 

On the other hand, these existing magics may have had to split into different branches, different systems, to work with these new sources of investiture.

 

Scadrial is an interesting case, because it was created directly by Ruin and Preservation, and probably has SDNA that is tied more closely to these shards than the other shardworlds. 

[tobar14 he/him]

I wish you could too because a quote saying they meshed together would be an immensely interesting detail.

 

 I think there is WoB that AonDor did not exist before the splintering or at least what Elantrian's do was not possible before.

 

 

However is this the quote you were thinking of?

That's not the exact quote I'm thinking of, but I found another discussion where the person is making the same claim that I am, but they also cannot find the quote.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3377-theory-devotion-dominion-and-convergence/

[Arook he/him]

I swear there is WoB Brian saying that shard existing on a planet with a second shard always creates a 3rd magic system that is a combination of both shards powers. I can't remember where I found it at and he RAFO'ed my reddit question asking weather a shard had to be on the same planet or just in the same solar system for that interaction to occur.