Reading Excuses - 12/14 - KateJ - Kingsdaughter Chapter 1

[KateJ]

This is the discussion thread for my first chapter submitted to Reading Excuses. I'd appreciate any and all honest feedback although I haven't given you much to start on - but Chapter Two made the submission a bit too long.

[Guenhywvar]

OK, long time since I have done this, and as I said, I am not too sure what to say, I will just work though it a little bit. I will treat this like I would my English exam, so sorry if it is too analytical.

OK, firstly, not a very big point but, (I know you haven't asked for it) there where a few typos, such as kingsdaughter, instead of king's daughter( OK, rereading this, I am not sure whether or not this was intended to be like that, seeing as the title was kingsdaughter as well, but I think it should be in two different words). And I noticed a couple of time the inconsistency of 'arcana' sometimes the 'a' being lower case, others upper. OK, typo rant over.

This sentence didn't make sense to me, 'Alena was not sure she liked either.' - Liked who or what? Or if that is not the intention, then what is?

Also, do '-' always work in the places you put them? I am not a master on punctuation, I am merely curious, for instance, 'As she came to her father’s chambers, a servant - the first she’d seen - approached with an armload of wood.' Surely those should be separated with commas rather than dashes? Also, as a side note, you change from pauses being depicted as '-'s to being depicted with eclipses.

Finally I will come onto some points about the story.

I know people go on and on about 'show don't tell' - I am still not perfect at this, but in one of the scenes,

'It was cold in the council room. Some servant had lit the candles and opened all the windows, and the early morning air chilled her through her dress. Still, it was refreshing after the closeness of her father’s chambers. Some of the councillors she had dismissed stood waiting for them. A servant brought her a glass of wine; she took it, drank a sip, and the warmth spread through her stomach. She needed to take command of this meeting.'

This, 'it was cold...' is not needed in my opinion, you would be much better saying something along the lines of,

A morning breeze fluttered in the room, bringing a slight chill to her bare arms, but she didn't mind, it was rather refreshing after the closeness of her father's chambers.

Edit:

or:

A morning breeze fluttered in the room, bringing a slight chill to her bare arms, but she didn't mind, especially after the heavy scent of death that lingered in her father's chambers.

Something like that maybe, a couple of minutes of the top of my head, but it really is show not tell. I am not perfect with this myself, but when I redraft I do often spot these and they do make the difference!

Apart from that I would say that it is a very nice piece, the concepts are interesting and the setting is also engaging. Although what I would say, and this is only a matter of opinion, is that it could do with a little more description, at the moment it is quite bare, but then I like heavy description, so as I said, only my two cents, and probably not everyone's cup of tea.

I hope this helped.

Regards,

Guen.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Guenhywvar

[ACharles78]

Hey Kate,

I think this is an interesting story and can see some interesting conflicts between sisters/heirs to the throne. I don’t want to say too much now (in fear you’ll do what I do too much of; self-editing) but I really did enjoy the story thus far. There were a few kinks in the dialogue that I think could have been smoothed out (such as the over formality), but you can analyze that stuff later. Personally for me, I must say the biggest thing is establishing Alena. I didn't necessarily feel like I could identify with Alena, if she is to be the eponymous protagonist. I think the main reason is that I didn't see any vulnerability to her character. She seems too commanding and too competent at what she does (there is nothing wrong with these attributes in a character) but I couldn't find any flaws in her that I could immediately grasp and say, 'yes, I'm rooting for this character.' My suggestion is that maybe you really show her closeness with her dead father, show her feeling remorseful of his death, and show Alena with a closeness that say, Meredith just doesn't have. And maybe this is why Meredith is envious of Alena.

I kinda wish you did include chapter 2 because I wanted to see where the next chapter would pick up. I personally thought it would interesting to jump all the way up to the point in which Meredith has had the child and starting us in Alena’s shoes (at the low point of having Meredith’s son steal her thunder) and seeing how she will try and take back what she believes to be hers. It might render chapter 1 as a prologue, not that that really matters. In terms of conflict, I think there is a variety of interesting things you can do with a plot like this and I can’t wait to see what else you’ve got in store for the reader . An intriguing read. Thanks!

Austin,

[KateJ]

Thanks for the feedback!

Guen, I'll have to think about adding more description. It's a weak spot for me, always has been. I'd appreciate feedback as you read through as to whether it is too stark or whether the story carries itself without much description in places. Also it's supposed to be "kingsdaughter" one word. It's her title and station in life.

Austin, interesting plot suggestion but not to give away too much plot but I'm currently writing chapter 20 and Meridith has not had her child so....

Good point about making Alena more likable. I did intend for her to come off as competent at first but if that makes her hard to follow then I'll have to think about it.

[ACharles78]

KateJ,

I’m glad to read your following chapter to this story and add it to the one you’ve already written (I’m adding them up in a folder of mine in word). Let me first say that this story is exciting. The dialogue is much better in this chapter, so kudos on that. The book has a lot of potential and I’d like to say I helped you make it a great one by continuing to critique it. The first thing I wrote in my critique is that the names are just far too similar here. Alena, Irina, and Milena are all way too similar (even if Irina and Milena are twins) and I just found myself getting confused as to who was who. I would suggest changing the last part of their name---the i(e)na part. Meredith, for example, I remember, because her name is much different.

My next suggestion is that I do not, under any circumstance, read these individuals as 16 year olds. Again I’ll say (as I think I did last time) that they are just far too competent for that age. I’m writing a 16 year old protagonist in my own fantasy novel the Incarni, and I eventually found out that they are much more believable when they make mistakes. 16 year olds aren’t competent, even my intelligent one, and they are stubborn as well. Your protagonists need to reflect that and I think they will be more believable. Show them being emotional, angry, show us that they are unable to control that prefrontal lobe all teenagers lack, so show them making brash decisions.

Your politics are the best part of this book. You are very good at writing these scenes. But almost to a fault. I think in this chapter, you may have led us too far into the political scope, and not enough into the interpersonal. Show us the sisters when they are not being pestered by servants asking them to plan political strategies. I found myself wondering what Alena was like without all the gossip and power struggles. Again, I want to see that personality; who is this character really? Show us this first, and then show us the political part, it will make her decisions make more sense if we know what kind of character we’re dealing with. Which brings me to the conflict of the story.

Melina stood and walked to her twin. “Don’t let that woman have the throne.”

Why? I still don’t know definitely why Meredith shouldn’t have the throne other than her sisters just don’t want her. I don’t know, perhaps this isn’t clear enough. Does she have bad intentions? Is she not competent enough? Does she plan to kill off her sisters? We need definitive answers as to why this sister shouldn’t have the throne if she is the antagonist. And for that matter, why should Alena have the throne? Our protagonist’s goals still are not clear by this point, and they should be. For the most part, these sisters are having their debates about who should rule, I still don’t have a sense of why, or what kingdom their even ruling. Give us the scenario of who they are ruling, the upper, middle and lower class struggles, and more importantly, why each sister brings something different to the table (insert the magic system here, in my opinion. Conflict with magic makes magic thereby more interesting). There should be that foundational conflict, of who should really be most fit to rule given their situation. (I hope these particular questions are answered in chapter 3, but really, you want to assume your reader is impatient and always answer them as soon as possible.)

That brings me to what I felt of Alena halfway through the chapter. If she is our protagonist, I found myself with the dangerous thought of what it would be like to see the story through Valla’s eyes. I actually found myself wanting to hear more about Valla, because he is dealing with a woman who just barks out orders. He is more interesting than Alena. Alena is far too demanding, and that’s something you need to consider. Like I said, Alena is far too competent, too commanding. I still don’t identify with her, especially considering her and her sisters for that matter, are so rich as well. Again, you can show their vulnerabilities by showing them alone. What are they afraid of? Why are they vying for power? These are things poor and rich people can identify with. Show Alena in a tight situation she has no control of. When you give our protagonists that much control, it makes her that much less interesting.

For the last few things, I want to talk about world building here. The part where they are talking about their dead father particularly. One of them says, “She’s with mother now.” Why? What afterlife do they believe in? This is a good chance to world build. I’m interested to see what they believe.

And as far as magic is concerned, its more of an afterthought here. I think you could have introduced the magic earlier in the chapter. Perhaps this is where some of the upper class turmoil between the sisters can be had. One seeks to rule with magic this way, and the other seeks to rule with magic the other. The magic reminds me a lot of Sympathy from Patrick Rothfuss’s the Kingskiller Chronicles, but that’s just me saying.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. I look forward to reading chapter 3. Great job Kate, keep it up. 

Austin,

[LongTimeUnderdog]

Hello,

You have no idea who I am and you have have never read anything I've written as far as I know, so in both instances I suppose you're lucky. Now onto your story.

I hate mages. Mages, wizards, sorcerers, all that stuff. I swear every one with a female name (and thus, I assume a female author) tries mages and magic schools. It's old, and incredibly incredibly boring. But maybe I just hate wizards so I could be biased. No, probably not. The only thing more boring then wizards are elementalists (fire, water, air, you get it). Simply put, I didn't read the first chapter, but in the second, as soon as it said arcana and mage, I wanted to put it down.

As to the characters I find them all snipity and backbiting. The more they go on about Meredith and how awful she is, the more I start cheering for Meredith. If that was your intention, good job.

As to the Magic system brought up (or started) in this chapter: With things like Construction, Destruction, Artificing, and blah blah, I swear I've played that video game. Actually makes me think of Elder Scrolls, to be completely honest.

The dialogue . . . is okay. It's not bad but I wouldn't call it good either. Since it's all just gossip and backbiting, I have trouble caring much for anything that they're saying. And I agree with Austin here, that we don't really have a sense for these characters since they're all just politically minded. Well we have that sense at least, but that's it.

I mean, if I actually liked these characters, and found out the throne might be going to someone else, that would be something. but all I do know is if I were this country, I wouldn't want them for a ruler, I could be sure of that.

The text itself is far to explaining. They did this, she is that. It feels as if you as the writer don't trust me as the reader.

She sat at her own table, a meal half-touched in front of her . . . .

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. While it's nice to give us a single line to give us a place and mood, this feels more like stage directions then an actual opening of a chapter. something like:

She sat at the round, birch table (totally just making stuff up here) in her chambers. Her chair, of matching wood and finish, had never been quite low enough to make eating here comfortable. Lord Carlos's note of the funerary costs lay opened and skewed to the side next to the unappetizing, half-consumed bread and cheese on her plate. She tried picking at the bread, reminding herself that in an hour she would be hungry again, but could not seem to force her mouth to open. with a sigh she picked up the letter and read the figures again. Such a costly operation, the death of a king. It only made her less hungry that no one had yet considered the remaining costs for her coronation.

I don't know your actual intents with the character but something like the above, gives us a great look at the scene, or the more appropriately what we're looking at in the scene, and gives us a bit into the character that is Alena. It also sets us up well for when the sister comes in demanding to know more about what's going on. It posses the question of "why hasn't anyone started working on her crowing?" And then answers it with, "Because Meredith could have a baby boy, and that's quite conflicting for Alena."

the stuff is all there for an interesting plot, but there is nothing new here and there is little presentation. We're given the facts and how they effect people and boo hoo someone might not have the throne they wanted. Too bad, sucker, is all I have to say on it.

[KateJ]

ACharles - thanks, this was very helpful. I've been wrestling for the last month whether to tear out the subplot that had Alena's sisters as viewpoint characters and you've actually shown me that I need to just go ahead and do this. It's Alena's story and they are hijacking it for no good reason.

Similarly I need to get in Alena's head more. I was trying to convey that right now Alena feels like the rug was pulled out from under her. She's been preparing to succeed her father since she was ten years old and all of a sudden her stepmother comes along and says not so fast. Alena was psyching herself up for a totally different fight - over who she would marry - and now she's got this other more important thing and her father just died. She's a bit numb. But that's not coming out so I need to fix it.

Alena is twenty and her sisters are 16. I didn't feel like what her sisters do is too out of character for a 16 year old in a quasi-medieval setting but I'll read it again with that in mind and perhaps tweak things. I was actually concerned that Alena is too old to be believably unmarried!

LongTimeUnderdog, I am trying to make use of your criticism. You have some good things to say, but I have to admit I had to read it a couple times to get past what I perceived as your tone. I'm a bit bemused... ok as the writer I did a bad job signaling that the magic stuff is not a major plot thread, that there's not a mage school story here. (Also since the last two books I read featuring mage schools were Patrick Rothfuss's Name of the Wind and Brent Week's Black Prism, I really don't know why you bothered mentioning it as a "female writer" thing)

Anyway thanks for the feedback - I really do appreciate it.

[cjhuitt]

On your first chapter...

I thought it started well, with the death of a king promising upheaval. It slowed a little for the scene in the king's bedchamber, but not too badly. The council room scene was well-done overall, with the surprise that the young, up-start wife is pregnant, and possibly bearing a son a nice ending to the chapter.

My biggest critique of this chapter is on a word-smithing level. I seem to say this a lot, so maybe I'm curmudgeonly this way, but I think you could find a good number of words to trim from the chapter, and make it flow faster. This is partially in opposition to the suggestions before that recommend delving further into Alena's head, I know, but I don't mean them entirely in opposition. I rather mean that you should trim what is there so that it flows faster and strikes harder. If you decide you need to add some more detail or nuance, by all means, but I would suggest making sure it doesn't lessen the punch that this chapter could deliver.

A few specific places I think could be trimmed a bit: The message of her fathers death from Terance (I suggest starting with the main effect, then a bit of setting, then into in slight media res -- 'She learned of her fathers death minutes before sunrise. Lord Councillor Terance appeared to deliver the message she had been expecting. "My father is dead," she stated at his appearance.') Some of Valla helping Alena dress, which repeats the clothing choices already stated earlier. The bit with the servants and firewood -- unless it's important to the plot later, somehow, it seems to stick out. The bit with the High Priest and the Master of Arcana didn't seem necessary at all - neither the description of them at that point in the story, nor the actual interaction with them.

On your second chapter...

I liked the part right at the beginning with the new information already causing chaos -- cost estimates for the funeral but not the coronation. Right after that, however, the pacing slows way down and I start to lose interest in what is happening. The part where Alena explains to Valla and to her sisters what is happening seems redundant, with little new information presented.

Once you get the map out and start discussion the potential votes, it becomes slightly more interesting, but there are too many explanations scattered in. Especially in the dialog. For example, the part about horse lords having a vote -- I would expect people close to Alena to at least know the basics of how the council works. In fact, that is a general problem in this chapter; the dialog verges on maid-and-butler dialog. It's not as explicit as that, and there may occasionally be a good reason for one character to explain something to another, but it seems like most of the chapter's dialog is people explaining things to other people. I would suggest trying to cut as much explanation as you think you possibly can, and maybe even more, and wait until you get feedback that it is too confusing before putting specific explanations back in. Remember also that they don't have to be presented in dialog. It can be an effective way to present an explanation, but the occasional explanatory sentence or two in the middle of other stuff happening can also be very effective, and mostly invisible.

Also about the map -- why did Alena even bring it out if there are too many factors to use it for decision making? I assume the main purpose was to bring Alena to the point where she considers what the promise of a marriage will do to her chances. Finally (for this part), why present the order for the new dresses? Unless something goes wrong with them, I don't think the information needs to appear until she wears one of the dresses, and maybe not even then.

I won't go into too much detail on the second section, except to say that the conversation over the father's body also feels like it was added to explain the backstory to the reader. It may be important to know, but the presentation here feels very awkward. As for the rest of it, I see you've already mentioned taking out the Irina subplot. I was going to ask if it was really necessary, because it doesn't seem to add to the chapter. I especially didn't think it was very effective here.

An overall comment about what I've seen so far, covering both chapters. In the first one you effectively showed Alena's assumed path for the next few weeks, maybe months, then promptly yank the rug out from under her. It was well done. In the second chapter, I expected things to get even worse for Alena somehow. Without knowing what you want to do with her it's hard for me to express specifically what I was expecting, but something along the lines of her setting out to do something, or accomplish some goal that she thinks will help with the new circumstances, only to be thwarted somehow (either in this chapter or the next). Instead, the second chapter seemed like treading water, instead of swimming forward against obstacles.

You might also want to be slightly careful about what sort of story this is going to be. The start of the first chapter set up a political battle between Alena and the council, making sure they were going to confirm her ascension to Queen. Meredith's revelation upset that dynamic a bit, but primarily Alena's chances, not the basic conflict. The second chapter reinforces this with the map scene, plotting a political battle where Alena will fight for support. However, the text then turns to be more against Meredith personally, which is a bit of a warning sign. If the rest of the book is a political battle (as the primary plot; you can have subplots), then I'll be getting what I expect. If the rest of the book is more personal against Meredith, unless it's a very small subplot, it won't be giving me what I expect after reading the first chapter and the start of the second.

[akoebel]

First, I'd like to say that I love court intrigue in general, and that it was great to have someone write chapters in that genre.

As cjhuitt mentioned, the opening chapter reads a little awkward. It's nothing egregious, though. Since it's been pointed out in my own writing, I try to keep an eye on the use of 'had', and found you were using it a little too often (21 instances in the first chapter + 3 'd at the end of page 2). This lends a passive feel to the writing.

I found a little strange that Alena would ask for "the most lavish funeral", since she doesn't know if the treasury can afford it. I'm not sure a ruler in medieval times would have mentioned that : they would expect a ceremony to be organized in the proper manner.

After that, we get to the reveal which was very nice.

It left me with some questions, though. First, since there can be no vacancy at the head of the state, the council would usually appoint a regent on the spot, even with Meredith's announcement. Furthermore, in those times, the council would appoint a special protector to make sure that the potential unborn male heir was born without trouble (a 'belly curator'). In no way should the council disband this day without seeing to those matters.

For chapter 2, I won't go into too much detail, since every one has covered the topic already.

What bothers me there is that Alena doesn't seem sure of what she wants. At times, it's almost like she doesn't care either way. She can say to her sisters that she will relinquish the throne is Meredith has a male baby, but since we're in her viewpoint, you should make sure the reader understands what Alena really thinks. You don't have to tell us everything, but show us some pointers. As things are, Alena lost all my sympathy here.

I agree that the scene with the map was a big info dump. I think you can reduce the number of things you say there to only what Alena would say to her sisters. The reader is versed enough in reading SF/F so that you can delay exposition of those details.

I actually liked that you switched viewpoints to show Irina's viewpoint. I agree that this scene isn't bringing up much, but I loved the idea to have the 3 sisters viewpoints to show us the political, the religious, and the magical views of the world.

[Asmodemon]

CHAPTER ONE

Everyone’s already covered most of what I wanted to say for the first two chapters, so I won’t belabour the points. Your story has potential, I like court-intrigue stories (if that is indeed where this is going) but they’re also hard to pull off. I hope you’ll succeed.

There are some grammar and punctuation issues, such as using hyphens to denote hesitation in speech in the first half of the first chapter instead of ellipses, but that’s nothing a good read through won’t fix. I’d have liked to have gotten more descriptions, it reads a little barebones in most places.

The biggest thing that bothered me in the first chapter was that Alena was so emotionless. Her father just died and though it was expected it should have left more of an impact, unless there are reasons for her to behave this way (distant relationship, she hates him, etc). This chapter doesn’t offer those reasons (you don’t need to spell them out, just give a nudge the reasons are there), so I’m left to assume they have a normal relationship – in which case her coldness is really off-putting. Losing the throne seems her primary conflict, but I failed to care for it.

CHAPTER TWO

The info-dump about the regions really need to go.

On page five you have Alena say something really odd; she’s giving Valla money to bribe some boys and some guards for information. She’s the heir of the kingdom and she needs to bribe her own guards for information? If she knows there are guards who can be bribed, why haven’t these people been thrown out of the palace yet? Alena would be stupid to assume her guards couldn’t be bribed, but this is an equally stupid move, just in the opposite way.

What bothered me in the first chapter was how heartless Alena was. Now it seems that runs in the family. When Irina and Melina enter their father’s chamber they both say one meaningless platitude and then continue with the problem of the day, rather than any kind of mourning. During their conversation about politics I’d completely lost track of the fact that they were at their father’s deathbed.

On page eight you have another info-dump, this one in the butler and maid dialogue format. Both Carida and Irina know of the prosecution mages have suffered , their conversation is only there to inform the reader and has no other reason at all. Also, in places it is Irina lecturing the master mage. While it is not impossible for an apprentice to know more about a certain field than the master, in this case none of the things Irina talks about should be unknown to the master mage.