Additional Fuels

[Aeshdan he/him]

Basically, the disagreement is over whether atium can be burned because it's a metal or because it's the incarnation of Ruin. Am I correct?

[KChan she/her]

That's a moot point, actually. It's a piece of the body of Ruin, yes, but it still takes the form of a metal for a reason. They are called the metallic arts, after all. Metal is the focus of the magic system, and therefore metal is what has to be used.

Meanwhile, the Tears are a flower, which can be used as a dye to color things. The focus of Awakening is color, so this works for this particular magic system.

Don't forget that there's a reason these items take the forms they do.

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

Since this has gotten rather inordinate I've just got this to say:

Allomancy works only by Burning metal.

Atium is a metal; Tears are a flower.

Ergo, Allomancy cannot Burn Tears.

It has nothing to do with whether Atium is the body of Ruin or not, Atium is a metal and an Allomantic one at that.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Since this has gotten rather inordinate I've just got this to say:

Allomancy works only by Burning metal.

Atium is a metal; Tears are a flower.

Ergo, Allomancy cannot Burn Tears.

It has nothing to do with whether Atium is the body of Ruin or not, Atium is a metal and an Allomantic one at that.

The syllogism of my argument:

Atium can be burned because it is the body of a Shard.

The Tears are the body of a Shard.

Therefore, Allomancy can burn the Tears.

I'm not at all certain this argument is right, but I'm quite certain it's reasonable, and I don't think it's worthy of a downvote.

[KChan she/her]

Alright, let's all take a deep breath here. No one is meaning to attack anyone; things just got a little spirited.

I think the main disagreement with your theory, Reader, is that you're not accounting for the fact that each magic system has a focus: metal for Allomancy, color for Awakening, etc. Yes, the Tears and atium are both manifestations of Shards, but they also take forms that can be used by their respective magic systems. This should tell us something about how the magic works: namely, that even manifestations of a Shard need to take a certain form for it to be usable in magic. If an Allomancer got their hands on the Tears somehow, and ate them, they wouldn't be able to do anything, because their body wouldn't recognize a non-metallic object as a burnable substance.

Make sense?

[Posaune]

I belive that atium can be burned because it is the incarnation of ruin, not because it is a metal. Not all metals can be burned, such as silver or lead. We also have an instance of a non metal being burned, although it was burned by a shard from the mistborn 3 annotations, chapter 55

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn’t expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation’s power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation’s cage captured Ruin’s own mind, but not his power.

Preservation burned his mind, not a metal. This is not a perfect example, as preservation was a shard and not an allomancer. Edited February 12, 2012 by Posaune

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

Not all metals can be Burned because of their Allomantic status.

The metallurgy on Scadrial is similar to chemistry with only certain few elements being capable of reacting with other elements, as only certain metals can react with an Allomancer.

Leras was drawing power from the Shard in his possession and to date, only Vin was ever able to draw into her body the mists.

I don't think it's been explained entirely why she was able to do so, but I think it was Leras allowing her to draw from the power of his own Shard.

Atium is still used as a metal by Allomancers, since it seems Vin's ability to draw in Preservation's body/power was unique.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Lyrebon

[KChan she/her]

It's been stated before that Vin could do what she did because she was chosen to ascend, which is certainly the best explanation I can think of for it. And let's not forget Brandon's description of lerasium, a piece of the body of Preservation: as a metal that anyone can burn.

Also, we shouldn't confuse the powers of a Shard with the powers of a magic system. They're different.

[Aiken Frost he/him]

People. Really. Even the body of shards had to take metallic forms to be burned. The magic system is called The Metallic Arts for a reason.

[Aradel he/him]

I don't think that mistborn could burn the tears because the tears are actual flowers, not the body of endowment. Even if they were touched by the shard, the flowers aren't necessary for awakening to work.

Atium was created by Preservation, who is tied to allomancy, from stolen power. Which may be the only reason allomancers can use it.

Mistborns might be able to do some funny things if they're given breaths, but I'm pretty sure the flowers are out.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[KChan she/her]

People. Really. Even the body of shards had to take metallic forms to be burned. The magic system is called The Metallic Arts for a reason.

This. A thousand times this. It's what I've been trying to say from the beginning.

I don't think that mistborn could burn the tears because the tears are actual flowers, not the body of endowment. Atium was 100% physically manifested Ruin.

Mistborns might be able to do some funny things if they're given breaths, but I'm pretty sure the flowers are out.

That's a really good point about the flowers and Endowment. And I agree - they're definitely out when it comes to being used by Allomancers.

[Chaos he/him]

Firstly, I agree that the Tears are most likely not able to be burned on account of being a flower. Equally important is the fact that the most we know about the Tears is that: 1. They are flowers, 2. They make dyes. 3. Awakeners use colors for their magic.

There are a lot of uncertainties about the Tears and what they do. We don't know for certain if they are of Endowment. We don't know how an Awakener can directly utilize the Tears. It's not like they eat the flower and get power; Awakening doesn't operate on that paradigm. Maybe draining the color in the Tears grants some weird effect. This is wild, wild speculation, so let's be aware of that.

But let's assume that the Tears are directly related to Endowment. That's a reasonable hypothesis. The question is, could a Mistborn use it, or there be Mistings for it?

I think it's a little misleading to talk about this in terms of atium. If a Mistborn is granted any power from the Tears, it probably acts much more like lerasium. Remember, lerasium making you a Mistborn is more of a side effect. Atium, I believe, has some sort of side effect as well, but it's impossible to know what that would be. I'm pretty sure Brandon RAFO'd whether atium has a side effect. The Tears, if they are the physical manifestation of Endowment, would have some sort of side effect. Shards, after all, do weird things. But we are talking about the Tears operating as a specific Allomantic ability. In which case, Allomancy has some prerequisites.

The first requirement for Allomancy is that you need metals for the conduit to open. Flowers are not metals. That's kind of key. Why is this such a critical distinction? Because Ruin and Preservation are blind to metals. The fact that the Metallic Arts are metal is of absolute critical significance to Ruin and Preservation's magic systems. We are not privy to why Ruin and Preservation are blind to metals, or what other Shards are blind to, but you can bet I'm not ignoring the fact that focuses are extremely important. Why do you think that Focuses on Roshar topic is so long? Because identifying a focus is essential to our understanding.

Mistborn are not drawing on Preservation when they burn atium either. They burn the atium directly. Logically, they ought to be able to do this with any substance of power.

Aha, see, that's not entirely true.

What's happening with Allomancy is this:

1. Get enough Preservation in you. This grafts the ability onto your Spiritweb to burn either all specific metals, or one specific metal. (this is the primary prerequisite to Allomancy)

2. Eat the specific metals.

3. Since you have the Spiritual ability for that particular metal, the metal acts as a conduit, leading to more power.

This process is true whether we are talking about atium or the basic metals. The only distinction with atium and malatium is step four:

4. The process of grabbing more power from an external source creates an Investiture, which grants an effect.

With the base metals, that power is coming from Preservation. With atium, that external source is the metal itself. So, atium isn't burnable because it is a substance of power, it is burnable because Mistborn (for whatever reason) are given this specific Spiritual ability to burn it, and because atium is in the correct form--metal--for the conduit to work. Once you have that, only then is the fact that the power is derived from the metal important. Any old dude on the street can eat atium, but they don't see into the future. Likewise, Vin probably could not have burned Ruin's Shardpool, just like she could not Allomantically burn the Well of Ascension. She would have had some ability from Ruin's pool, just as she received power from the Well of Ascension, but neither of those powers would be Allomancy itself. It is Allomancy-like because it is the direct essence of Shards, and if you work them correctly, you can simulate Allomantic abilities, as when Vin pulls on the mists.

If the question is, Can the Tears be used to do some crazy stuff? then the answer is yes. Shards do weird stuff. But any stuff like that is not actually Allomancy. Since it is not a metal, a Mistborn can't burn it. And before that, you need to have the Spiritual codes to make it work.

I will say that it is odd that Mistborn can burn atium and its alloys. How in the heck did that happen? It is probably because of Preservation's direct intervention that he could hack it to work. I think it's an extreme logical leap to say that because Mistborn have the Spiritual codes to burn atium--one pure physical form of a Shard--that Mistborn have the ability to burn every pure physical manifestation of a Shard. So, even separate from the fact that "flowers aren't metals", we have a hitch in that there's no indication Mistborn have the right Spiritual codes to burn other physical Shardic manifestations. After all, Ruin and Preservation were pretty special cases. Perhaps Sazed or some other Shard could hack that Spiritual code in, or perhaps Hemalurgy can do it, but it seems too much of a leap to say the ability comes free.

Even beyond that, Awakening operates on a different mechanism than Allomancy does. Allomancy can do awesome things, but it only has a finite number of actual effects. AonDor doesn't have that restriction, and Awakening can do a lot more different things than Allomancy can. Step #1 in the Allomantic process doesn't apply. And because of that, I don't think the Tears are directly compatible with Allomancy. Different paradigms entirely.

Now, none of this is saying that the Tears might not have some effect on a person who eats them, like lerasium does. Anyone who eats lerasium is affected by it. I am sure the Tears have some ability like that (this assumes they are pure Endowment, of course), but that is not Allomancy. That's some deeper effect. Allomancy is using specific metals to get specific abilities, and I find it unlikely that the Tears have a direct Allomantic property like atium does.

[Aradel he/him]

That being said, an allomancer who is also an awakener wouldn't see too much overlap in their abilities. Aside from being able to affect both metals and organics.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Basically, the disagreement is over whether atium can be burned because it's a metal or because it's the incarnation of Ruin. Am I correct?

Your arguments make sense, but I still don't see why this post was downvoted. It seems like i'm being downvoted for expressing my opinion. I don't believe this, so I'm curious to hear the real explanation.

[Chaos he/him]

Your arguments make sense, but I still don't see why this post was downvoted. It seems like i'm being downvoted for expressing my opinion. I don't believe this, so I'm curious to hear the real explanation.

Yeah, so I went ahead and upvoted that post for you.

Well, that post struck me as wrong because neither atium being metal nor being the incarnation of Ruin is sufficient to actually burn atium. You need the Spiritual codes to do it, which kind of critical. So I could see why someone may have gotten annoyed at you missing that. (And, as I said, the fact that it is the incarnation of Ruin is more or less irrelevant until the final step of the Allomantic process) That's just my take on it. But yeah, your opinions are your own and I thought the discussion was sufficient, so sorry you were downvoted

[Aeshdan he/him]

Thanks!

[Bremen]

Reading this something just struck me:

In order to burn Atium (the body of ruin) one needs to have a connection to Preservation (ie be an allomancer)

This seems kindof nuts to me.

It also strongly implies to me that an allomancer should be able to burn the physical manifestation of any shard. If the Tears are the body of Endowment than I believe an allomancer can burn them (I don't believe they're the body of Endowment).

For symmetry we know, or it is at least strongly implied, that Hermalurgy can steal the magic system of any shard.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Bremen

[Chaos he/him]

Reading this something just struck me:

In order to burn Atium (the body of ruin) one needs to have a connection to Preservation (ie be an allomancer)

This seems kindof nuts to me.

It also strongly implies to me that an allomancer should be able to burn the physical manifestation of any shard. If the Tears are the body of Endowment than I believe an allomancer can burn them (I don't believe they're the body of Endowment).

For symmetry we know, or it is at least strongly implied, that Hermalurgy can steal the magic system of any shard.

It is not clear the exact mechanism which is required for an Allomancer to burn atium. It is an open cosmere question. But still, it must be a power specifically coded into the Allomancer for it to work, and as I said above, I doubt the Tears can even be specifically encoded.

[KChan she/her]

They almost certainly wouldn't be natively encoded into the spiritweb of a person from Scadrial, at least. Even if their body could somehow recognize a flower as a burnable substance, the connection to Endowment just isn't there.