Wild Idea on the Fourth BioChromatic Entity

[MistLord he/him]

This idle musing has been bubbling in my head for about half a year now, but it's only today that I've felt the absolute need to share it:

 

What would happen if you were to Awaken a sword using one of the Immortal Words?

 

For instance, what would happen if Vasher had awakened Nightblood, but instead of using the command 'Destroy Evil' he used the command 'Protect those who cannot protect themselves'. Would we simply get an awakened, sentient sword that would try (badly) to fulfil its command, or would we get something a little more... magical...?

 

 

 

honourblade?

 

 

BONUS FAR FETCHED-NESS: What if one of the Skybreaker's oaths had something to do with 'Destroy Evil'...

[Left he/him]

Well the problem is that all the words are very long, so it wouldn't work very well as an Awakening command. If you could get it to stick though.... That'd be really scary. Like what if nightblood attracted a spren..... I think you gave me nightmares mate.

[Swimmingly he/him]

You'd probably get a sword with all of Kaladin's compunctions about killing to protect and no handy emotions or reason to get around it.

[NutiketAiel he/him]

This idle musing has been bubbling in my head for about half a year now, but it's only today that I've felt the absolute need to share it:

 

What would happen if you were to Awaken a sword using one of the Immortal Words?

 

For instance, what would happen if Vasher had awakened Nightblood, but instead of using the command 'Destroy Evil' he used the command 'Protect those who cannot protect themselves'. Would we simply get an awakened, sentient sword that would try (badly) to fulfil its command, or would we get something a little more... magical...?

 

 

 

honourblade?

 

 

BONUS FAR FETCHED-NESS: What if one of the Skybreaker's oaths had something to do with 'Destroy Evil'...

 

You'd get a sword that wants to protect anyone helpless.  That would probably include changing sides in a battle to protect whichever happens to be losing at the time.  Not to mention more common situations, like killing a parent to protect a child from their discipline, or freeing criminals because they are in prison and therefore can't protect themselves from the police.  And that's assuming that a piece of awakened metal would even make the proper distinction between sentient and non-sentient life.  I can see it attacking farmers to protect the cattle that cannot protect themselves, or maybe even lumberjacks to protect the trees that cannot protect themselves.

 

So, yeah, I foresee disaster.  I don't think there is any command, no matter how cleverly phrased, that would result in anything but disaster.  A sword simply does not have the compassion, the emotional context, to interpret its Command in an appropriate way.  It would remain a mockery of human life.

[Argent he/him]

Makes me wonder if you can at all Awaken a weapon in a way that doesn't backfire...

[Swimmingly he/him]

Or, you know, awaken something that isn't a weapon. What about a pot Commanded to Feed People? Would that consume Investiture to create food?

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Makes me wonder if you can at all Awaken a weapon in a way that doesn't backfire...

 

Isn't that approximately what Syl and Pattern are?

 

I find it interesting that although they are far more sophisticated sentient beings than Nightblood  (much more aware of the nuance of interpersonal relationships) they dodge the exact same questions of how to interpret their Ideals as where Nightblood goes wrong.   Syl cares very much that Kaladin must follow the Ideals, but when he asks tricky questions like how to balance two conflicting promises, she's no help at all.   Bonded spren seem to rely on their human partners to make these subtle judgments about how to interpret their principles, but Nightblood has no such bond.

 

Could the secret to Awakening a non-backfiring weapon be to bond it with a human consciousness, as opposed to just giving it a single static Command?

[Shardbearer he/him]

Isn't that approximately what Syl and Pattern are?

 

...[snip]...

 

Could the secret to Awakening a non-backfiring weapon be to bond it with a human consciousness, as opposed to just giving it a single static Command?

Yes, I think that is exactly it. The spren draw something from their bonded person, and that something makes them more human.

 

Also, the bond puts something of a limit to what a shardblade can do. A dead spren shardblade can be used by anyone, but I'm assuming that a live spren would refuse to work with anyone who somehow manage to get possession of the blade against the KRs will.

 

Like, if Kaladin willed Syl to stay as a blade while he walked off to do his businesss and someone came and picked up Syl while was away...

[Terisen he/him]

I see Nightblood a bit like a computer program (I'm a programmer, so this is how I see the world.  Shut up.  )

 

It's (relatively) simply to write a program that does one thing and does it well.  But there's no room for interpretation.  

 

"Why'd that program delete my file?"

"Well, you told it to."

 

Trying to introduce nuance and subtlety becomes a monumental task and is one of the challenges of AI programming.  Now try to imagine wrapping all that up into a single vocal command. Just can't be done that simply.

[MistLord he/him]

I see Nightblood a bit like a computer program (I'm a programmer, so this is how I see the world.  Shut up.  )

 

It's (relatively) simply to write a program that does one thing and does it well.  But there's no room for interpretation.  

 

"Why'd that program delete my file?"

"Well, you told it to."

 

Trying to introduce nuance and subtlety becomes a monumental task and is one of the challenges of AI programming.  Now try to imagine wrapping all that up into a single vocal command. Just can't be done that simply.

And yet we know the efficacy of the Command increases the closer it is to the 'true command', as referred to how lifeless used to take 50 breaths to create. These are the Immortal Words. Words of binding power on Roshar, used over hundreds of years by Roshar's most powerful. More than that, they are linked to the Spren and Shardblades that an Awakened blade is so similar to. Most here argue my former hypothesis, that "the sword will try (badly) to fulfil its command". 

 

and by the way, the lifeless command is "Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and my word". So length doesn't really matter, only concision and eloquence.

 

 

But if even the Windrunner's oath is too ambiguous to fulfil, what would happen (if you could figure the phrasing properly) if you used the First Ideal instead? Hell, I'm fascinated by the idea of multiple commands now... the Swords Radiant... 

[NutiketAiel he/him]

Makes me wonder if you can at all Awaken a weapon in a way that doesn't backfire...

 

Honestly, I doubt it.  An awakened object simply doesn't have the emotional or moral background that a human would.  Vasher has spent centuries with Nightblood, and the thing hasn't gotten any better.  That tells me that the very concept of endowing an inanimate object with sentience is inherently flawed.  It simply can't act and react the way a sentient person is supposed to.

 

 

Or, you know, awaken something that isn't a weapon. What about a pot Commanded to Feed People? Would that consume Investiture to create food?

 

You're really going to use 1000 breaths to awaken a saucepan?

 

 

Isn't that approximately what Syl and Pattern are?

 

I find it interesting that although they are far more sophisticated sentient beings than Nightblood  (much more aware of the nuance of interpersonal relationships) they dodge the exact same questions of how to interpret their Ideals as where Nightblood goes wrong.   Syl cares very much that Kaladin must follow the Ideals, but when he asks tricky questions like how to balance two conflicting promises, she's no help at all.   Bonded spren seem to rely on their human partners to make these subtle judgments about how to interpret their principles, but Nightblood has no such bond.

 

Could the secret to Awakening a non-backfiring weapon be to bond it with a human consciousness, as opposed to just giving it a single static Command?

 

I don't think this comparison tracks.  Syl and Pattern were already sentient beings in the Cognitive Realm.  They "traveled" to the Physical Realm and bonded with a human, allowing them to regain the sentience they already had.  Nightblood is an artificially constructed personality.  He was never sentient before the process of being Awakened.  It's a totally different thing.

 

Nightblood's entire persona, his whole being, is based around the command "destroy evil."  A command that he is not equipped to understand.  It's almost like shardic intent.  Over time, the intent of the shard warps the personality of the shardholder.  Well, with Nightblood, there was no personality to warp- the intent is all there is.  There's nothing to give it context, no human emotions or compassion to interpret it.  The entire personality is based around those two words- and one of them is an abstraction that it can't understand, and hasn't been able to learn to understand despite centuries of trying.

 

A single command, no matter what it is, is not enough to build a functioning person.  Any attempt to do so is, in my opinion, doomed to failure.  The best we can hope for would be some kind of idiot savant persona, something that isn't really functional, but isnt really harmful, either.  More likely, we'd just end up with more Nightbloods.  Which is, of course, exactly what Vasher was afraid of.

[signspace13 he/him]

I have always felt that Nightblood is more than we see him to be in Warbreaker, something that Brandon hints too in the annotations. His mind is fixed somewhat to the point in time that he was created, that is forged into him, he can't at any point consider any of the 5 scholars as dead, because they were alive when he was made. So saying this I believe that Nightblood currently doesn't know what evil is, because he has never experienced true evil, doing terrible things thinking they are right, forcing others to do things against their will.

 

Nightblood never learned what evil was from Vasher Because Vasher wasn't evil. Szeth will likely do some rather Evil things with Nightblood, this may teach Nightblood (and possibly Szeth) what evil is. 

 

I feel like it will be said night blood would kill someone evil if they picked him up, yes he possibly would, but the way that works is completely separate from his mind, the way he does this is he quickly judges what the person will do with him, if that thing contradicts "destroy evil" at all, he kills them, this could lead to good poeple falling to Nightblood's test.

 

I do not think you can create an Awakened weapon that is initially broken, But if you have someone weilding said sword that could somehow teach the sword the true meaning of it's command, then yes you could have an awakened weapon that is actually a good person, not a puppy(doing what it's told no thought just action).

[The Mad Reader she/her]

Honestly, I doubt it.  An awakened object simply doesn't have the emotional or moral background that a human would.  Vasher has spent centuries with Nightblood, and the thing hasn't gotten any better.  That tells me that the very concept of endowing an inanimate object with sentience is inherently flawed.  It simply can't act and react the way a sentient person is supposed to.

 

I think there is some indication that Nightblood is  beginning to learn. He suggested that Vasher throw him into a group of people and if they're evil they'd destroy themselves, which was new thinking. I believe there was more on this in the annotations. While Nightblood is predominantly shaped by his first moments of life, he does seem capable of learning some new tricks.  I am unsure if this could extend to learning morality or personality growth, but it does show that he's not entirely static. 

 

I have always felt that Nightblood is more than we see him to be in Warbreaker, something that Brandon hints too in the annotations. His mind is fixed somewhat to the point in time that he was created, that is forged into him, he can't at any point consider any of the 5 scholars as dead, because they were alive when he was made. So saying this I believe that Nightblood currently doesn't know what evil is, because he has never experienced true evil, doing terrible things thinking they are right, forcing others to do things against their will.

 

Nightblood never learned what evil was from Vasher Because Vasher wasn't evil. Szeth will likely do some rather Evil things with Nightblood, this may teach Nightblood (and possibly Szeth) what evil is. 

 

I don't think that being used for evil things would teach Nightblood what evil was.He seems to base his judgments on Vasher's judgment, so  being used for evil would probably just warp his understanding of evil. It's also likely that he has seen true evil at some point in his long life, so I don't see why being used by Szeth would be so different.

[NutiketAiel he/him]

I think there is some indication that Nightblood is  beginning to learn. He suggested that Vasher throw him into a group of people and if they're evil they'd destroy themselves, which was new thinking. I believe there was more on this in the annotations. While Nightblood is predominantly shaped by his first moments of life, he does seem capable of learning some new tricks.  I am unsure if this could extend to learning morality or personality growth, but it does show that he's not entirely static. 

 

He may be able to learn some things, but he remains fundamentally stunted.  The human emotions and experiences that make "evil" more than just a word are totally alien to him.  He's gotten better at talking Vasher into stuff, but that doesn't mean he really understands.