Cross-Cosmere Forms

[PorridgeBrick]

So, we were talking about this in the WalDo thread, and we decided to bring it over to another thread. We know, per WoB, that it's possible to give listeners their sentience through Hemalurgic spikes, just like Kandra.

Q: Given that Investiture is Investiture, would there be potential Investiture of like, kandra to Parshendi using Hemalurgic spikes?

A: Hemalurgic spikes can be used on any planet.

Q: Would it be potential for Parshendi to develop a form using the spikes?

A: Wow, that would be a really weird hack of the magic system that would be theoretically possible. But that's a really weird one. I had never even considered that one. Parshendi adopting other Investiture could happen, the spikes is not one I've considered.

Given this, what other weird forms could be made? If seons are relatively equivalent to spren, could a Parshman bond with an Aon Tia and have a Teleportationform? Be given a Divine Breath, and become Glowyform? The possibilities are endless. Thoughts?

[Swimmingly]

Kolossform, of course.

[Kobold King]

I'll say this here as well. If we give Eshonai a bead of Lerasium, and do we have mistform? Soulstamp Eshonai, and do we have forgeform?

 

What about those strange birds we see in the Sixth of the Dusk preview? Can we have a birdform? (Known exclusively as "chickenform" on Roshar.)

[Edgedancer]

I fonder if Parshendi could extrapolate magic from a spike. What I mean is, would a spike with let´s say Feruchemical iron work the same way Feruchemical brass would and give a harmonyform, which allows them to store every attributes or would they need to adapt to each attribute seperate.

 

Also, faboulusform for Naltis. Uhh, zombieform if they adapt to the divine Breath of a Returned.

[PorridgeBrick]

Kolossform, of course.

So four Iron spikes as opposed to the whatever Parshquisitors have?

I'll say this here as well. If we give Eshonai a bead of Lerasium, and do we have mistform? Soulstamp Eshonai, and do we have forgeform?

What about those strange birds we see in the Sixth of the Dusk preview? Can we have a birdform? (Known exclusively as "chickenform" on Roshar.)

I don't know if Lerasium supply the needed Investiture, though. All it does is change some SDNA, whereas both Spikes and Spren are Invested things grafted onto the Spiritweb.

Also, how would you... go about actually making this birdform? O.o Do you eat the bird or something?

I fonder if Parshendi could extrapolate magic from a spike. What I mean is, would a spike with let´s say Feruchemical iron work the same way Feruchemical brass would and give a harmonyform, which allows them to store every attributes or would they need to adapt to each attribute seperate.

 

Also, faboulusform for Naltis. Uhh, zombieform if they adapt to the divine Breath of a Returned.

I don't think so. For example, if a Parshendi bonded to a KR spren, I think they would just get that spren's surges, not all ten. So a Parshendi should just get whatever benefits the Spike carries, along with their sentience. Kandra's spikes work the same way– they just get the same attributes that are in the Spikes + sentience. Edited April 25, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Kobold King]

So four Iron spikes as opposed to the whatever Parshquisitors have?

I don't know if Lerasium supply the needed Investiture, though. All it does is change some SDNA, whereas both Spikes and Spren are Invested things grafted onto the Spiritweb.

Also, how would you... go about actually making this birdform? O.o Do you eat the bird or something?

 

*Wipes feathers off of face and smiles innocently.*

 

Good point about Lerasium. Though I really like the idea of mistform.

 

Hmm... using an atium spike, can you steal a Listener's ability to bond spren and change forms?

[PorridgeBrick]

*Wipes feathers off of face and smiles innocently.*

Good point about Lerasium. Though I really like the idea of mistform.

Hmm... using an atium spike, can you steal a Listener's ability to bond spren and change forms?

Maybe. Hemalurgy is very flexible, and it's not like we know exactly what mechanism allows the forms to happen.

DestroyEvilform. If Nightblood is basically a DestroyEvilspren attached to a sword, and Parshendi can bond spren...

Edited April 25, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Ketek]

I don't think it'd be the exact same as giving a listener a form through spren, to be honest. It probably wouldn't change their urges (like say, mateform), and instead only provide sentience and power.

 

So I might be able to give a listener the ability to Steelpush, but at the same time they could still shift forms. Imagine one with some Hemalurgic spikes for Allomantic pewter and warform - it would be nigh unstoppable. Or scholarform and Feruchemical zinc. Stormform and Feruchemical steel. No more lightning inaccuracy, just walk up and touch someone before unleashing Force lightning raw lightning!

 

As for Selish magic, perhaps Dakhor bone-molding combined with listener warform? Storming hell you'd be hard to injure, let alone kill without a Shardblade.

 

Better yet. What if you used a spike on a spren and stole its Investiture? Could you then use it as a Nahel bond of sorts?

Edited April 25, 2014 by Ketek

[PorridgeBrick]

I don't think it'd be the exact same as giving a listener a form through spren, to be honest. It probably wouldn't change their urges (like say, mateform), and instead only provide sentience and power.

 

So I might be able to give a listener the ability to Steelpush, but at the same time they could still shift forms. Imagine one with some Hemalurgic spikes for Allomantic pewter and warform - it would be nigh unstoppable. Or scholarform and Feruchemical zinc. Stormform and Feruchemical steel. No more lightning inaccuracy, just walk up and touch someone before unleashing Force lightning raw lightning!

 

As for Selish magic, perhaps Dakhor bone-molding combined with listener warform? Storming hell you'd be hard to injure, let alone kill without a Shardblade.

 

That is true. Spikes aren't really sentient splinters like Spren, Seons/Skaze, and Nightblood are, so I guess you wouldn't really 'bond' with them. Enough Spikes, however, could have big enough physiological changes to basically be considered a new form. What happens if a Stormform is given four Iron spikes? The four spikes should kolossify them, but how does that interact with the changes given by the other forms?

[Moogle]

Better yet. What if you used a spike on a spren and stole its Investiture? Could you then use it as a Nahel bond of sorts?

 

This is probably essentially what fabrials are. Those with Soulcasters learn how to use them better with time, and it changes them into something inhuman. I imagine there's a similar effect for most every other type of Surgebinding fabrial.

[Ketek]

 

That is true. Spikes aren't really sentient splinters like Spren, Seons/Skaze, and Nightblood are, so I guess you wouldn't really 'bond' with them. Enough Spikes, however, could have big enough physiological changes to basically be considered a new form. What happens if a Stormform is given four Iron spikes? The four spikes should kolossify them, but how does that interact with the changes given by the other forms?

 

Depends, I suppose. I presume scholarform would offset the decrease in intelligence, while warform would augment its strength; mateform... I'd rather not go there.

 

This is probably essentially what fabrials are. Those with Soulcasters learn how to use them better with time, and it changes them into something inhuman. I imagine there's a similar effect for most every other type of Surgebinding fabrial.

 

But with ordinary spren, it seems, and the Surges are apparently limited too. I'd presume that an honorspren, or Cryptic, or highspren could give you two Surges if you spiked them and then used it on another, although it wouldn't be as potent as a Knight Radiant's Surges. And I suspect it would consume more Stormlight due to the nature of the bond.

[Moogle]

But with ordinary spren, it seems, and the Surges are apparently limited too. I'd presume that an honorspren, or Cryptic, or highspren could give you two Surges if you spiked them and then used it on another, although it wouldn't be as potent as a Knight Radiant's Surges. And I suspect it would consume more Stormlight due to the nature of the bond.

 

Spikes can only steal one Misting power rather than all sixteen by default. I think it makes sense for 'spikes' on Roshar to only steal one Surge by default. We have a WoB that implies you can steal more than one power, though no one knows how yet. I'd agree that you can steal two Surges by stealing the bond from a Surgebinder, but with just spiking a Nahel spren and trapping its Investiture in a spike, I think you'd need special knowledge to get more than one Surge.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardmancer]

We all know a ShardMancer will be the most badass still right.. .i.e

[Kobold King]

Better yet. What if you used a spike on a spren and stole its Investiture? Could you then use it as a Nahel bond of sorts?

How would you spike a spren? Using the Cognitive ideal of a spike? Or by using some sort of Shardspike? It's a neat idea, I'm just wondering how that would work in practice.

[Moogle]

How would you spike a spren? Using the Cognitive ideal of a spike? Or by using some sort of Shardspike? It's a neat idea, I'm just wondering how that would work in practice.

 

The idea of a spike is that you stick someone with it and it steals a bit of their Investiture (spiritweb). So to get a spren spiked, you'd just need to hit it with something that can trap its Investiture. Like... say... a gem.

 

The different metals act as different 'shapes' or filters to keep different Investiture in Hemalurgy, and similarly you have to cut a gem a certain way (and use the right type) to imprison a spren in it. You'd just find the 'waveform' corresponding to the spren you wanted (Investiture is sort of sort of fluid and also some sort of wave), and then cut a gem such that that waveform can be forced through and into the gem.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

Feruchemical duralumin + Allomantic brass + nimbleform. A practically unstoppable assassin.

[Shardmancer]

A Full Twinborn, Fully bonded Bondsmith whose Seon and Elantrian Bondform of a Parshendi... Now has been given the wealth of breath.. Dont mess with this guy

[Khyrindor]

guys.....Hoid.

[Swimmingly]

The problem with the gemstone idea is that Hemalurgy, despite being applicable everywhere, is a Scadrian magic and thus focuses on metals. It's not an base-level Realmatics concept, just a hack that uses Ruin's Investiture.

[Ketek]

I'm actually curious as to how one could use Ruin's Investiture despite not being on the same Shardworld. And I do wonder - has anyone ever accidentally spiked another outside of Scadrial? 

[Satsuoni]

(goes into Shadesmar for a spot of spren-hunting)

The problem with spren-spiking (and I am sure there is a way) is that you might get more than you asked for Sprens are manifestations of ideas, surges seem secondary to their natures, so what happens if you spike a Honorspren into yourself? Would you absorb a bit of the idea and become Honorable, possibly ashamed of the fact that you just ripped a spren apart and stuck it into your soul? Would that work like it does on Parshendi as well, twisting you into abominable Honorform? Questions, questions... And spike do affect minds of humans, so would probably affect minds of Parshendi as well...

Though I wouldn't mind becoming half-spren if that means I can shapeshift my hand into shardblade at will

 

P.S. We still don't know how to work Hemalurgy in other worlds. At least, you seem to need actual intent to steal attribute.

[Swimmingly]

Well, location doesn't matter, for one thing. You can still access Allomancy on Roshar, I don't see why Hemalurgy would be different. However, I'm not so sure about metals; you might need Scadrian metals. In that case, it could be in pretty expensive.

[Tempus]

And I do wonder - has anyone ever accidentally spiked another outside of Scadrial? 

 

Relevant WoB:

MOOSE

Has Hemalurgy been used on another planet besides Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it has. Brandon did not want to give out any more details about who was getting spiked or if the spiking was successful.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Tempus

[Ketek]

I know people have been spiked. I meant unintentionally, though.

[Tempus]

Oh, unintentionally. No idea! Apologies for the miss.

 

 

 

Well, location doesn't matter, for one thing. You can still access Allomancy on Roshar, I don't see why Hemalurgy would be different. However, I'm not so sure about metals; you might need Scadrian metals. In that case, it could be in pretty expensive. 

 

Allomancy will work with metal from any planet, apparently. Hemalurgy might work the same way. Some people have theorized as well that in order to steal the appropriate investitures you'd need spikes that match their focus or similar, largely because you need matching metals for stealing allomantic/feruchemic powers.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Tempus