Theory: KR spren and cargo cults

[kari-no-sugata]

Somewhat whacky theory I came up with today. Here I'm using "cargo cult" in the common sense, rather than specific historical sense. There's a related term that's a bit more high-brow: sympathetic magic

 

I can't seem to find the exact WoB (never seem to have much luck) but I think he's said more than once that the KRs came from spren trying to mimic/copy the powers of Heralds. That is, it wasn't planned / designed by the Shards of Roshar - it's more of an accident.

 

For my theory, I have two assumption:

 

Firstly: That new "types" of spren can appear over time - they can change type to some degree. Since there is some kind of feedback loop between humans (or sentient beings in general) and spren, this seems quite plausible to me - if humans start to view spren in different ways then the spren can change. In short: the KR spren we think of today were all originally different types of spren.

 

Secondly: what originally caught the spren's attention was NOT the personality of the various Heralds - but what they were doing.

 

Here's my thoughts:

1) Heralds appear on Roshar and spren notice them doing "awesome stuff" - for example, ordinary wind spren could notice a Herald flying past and find this very interesting.

2) Because the spren are consistently attracted to the Heralds, they form a minor bond. This enabled the spren to be "uplifted" (become smarter) and start to change.

3) The spren want to see more "awesome stuff". As they become more aware they would notice the humans looking at the Heralds in awe.

4) The spren try to get the ordinary humans to do "awesome stuff". They do this by trying to blindly copy the Heralds - copy what the Heralds have (magic swords) and how they act (personality). Hence "cargo cult".

5) Eventually spren are able to form true bonds with humans and this uplifts them further. This is when they really diverge from their original "type" - particularly when the feedback loop kicks in and humans regard the KR spren are being new/different.

6) It's possible that the first KR oath was copied from the Heralds too, which is why it is consistent when everything else about the orders seems (and how their spren bonds work) are highly divergent.

 

So, to summarise: I think KR spren were "originally" different (more ordinary) types of spren - honorspren could really have been windspren originally. The original spren changed due to their relationships with the Heralds and then humans. There's no direct relationship between the type of spren, what they look for in KRs and the Surges they grant, making the particular attributes that KR spren look for in humans more of a "frozen accident": a side effect of the personality of the Heralds that got locked in because people and spren believed it was important. There is little consistency between the KR spren because they all developed independently (convergent evolution if you will).

 

I suspect that originally all the KR spren were not quite so discerning and at first there might even have been more than one type of spren that could grant a particular pair of Surges. Over time, the KR spren and KR beliefs became entrenched, resulting in a single consistent solution for each KR order. I suspect it's theoretically possible that spren could grant any combination of Surges or even more than 2 - they would just need to believe it was possible. However, there may also be a particular reason why Honor gave each Herald their two particular Surges, so in practice that may be almost impossible for other reasons.

 

[Ati]

Awesome post.  Some of this is pretty speculative, but I love the thought process here.  

 

There is one concept in particular though that I would be very curious to see how you would incorporate.  It seems, at least to me, that spren exhibit different levels of intelligence in Shadesmar versus Roshar even for the same spren.  Almost a Taravangian effect, but based on location (or realm) rather than randomized.  Do you think the concept of a spren being an instinctive creature in one realm but a (in some cases) highly intelligent being in Shadesmar could have an impact on this idea?  Or disagree with my interpretation of spren intelligence?

[RShara]

These are as close as I could find.

 

Q:  Why were all the shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?
A:  When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after honorblades.

 

Q:  I'm guessing it's a RAFO, but why do Honorblades work the way they do?
A:  Honorblades were crafted before Shardblades existed--
Q:  So they were crafted.
A:  They were crafted before Shardblades existed, and all Shardblades that exist came about as certain individuals trying to find out how to copy Honorblades.

[kaellok]

An interesting idea. The biggest flaw I see in it right away is that Surgebinders existed before KRs did, and the unifying Ideal for all of the orders is based on the book by Nahodan. So, I think your theory on why they only have access to two Surges is wrong, but may be on the right track--we know that there's a strong connection between spren and what happens when they are recorded.

It seems logical to me that the KR spren 'started off' as something different. Syl seemed exactly like a windspren until she didn't. Windspren gather around Kaladin whenever he is flying; Windrunners fly; presumably anyone who is flying will gather windspren. Shallan gathers creationspren when she is drawing, hundreds of them when she draws Pattern. I remember a WoB that Lightweavers tend to have strong creative gifts usually, so they would tend to draw creationspren. It thus seems that Pattern is a changed creationspren (even to the point that both seem to have the ability to constantly change their shapes, and don't necessarily know how what they see fits into the real world.)

The biggest question that I would have, if this were the case, is when and why did the conscious spren start creating homes for themselves in Shadesmar?

Edit: Also, I think it's in WoR that we learn that what the spren did was not intended, possibly WoK. Almost definitely not WoB.

Edited April 5, 2014 by kaellok

[kari-no-sugata]

An interesting idea. The biggest flaw I see in it right away is that Surgebinders existed before KRs did, and the unifying Ideal for all of the orders is based on the book by Nahodan. So, I think your theory on why they only have access to two Surges is wrong, but may be on the right track--we know that there's a strong connection between spren and what happens when they are recorded.

 

I should clarify that when I say "KR spren" and talking about KRs in the original post I really mean in the general sense of "Surgebinders using the Nahel bond" rather than strictly official "Knights Radiant ". Certainly "Surgebinders using the Nahel bond" existed long before Nahodan. I don't remember there being a WoB (or good evidence in the books) that the First Oath originated from Nahodan - got a quote?

 

Nahodan had a big influence on "Surgebinders using the Nahel bond" but I suspect this is more cultural level rather than at a fundamental magic system level.

 

The biggest question that I would have, if this were the case, is when and why did the conscious spren start creating homes for themselves in Shadesmar?

 

I have no idea.

[PorridgeBrick]

It's from the Way of Kings (in world). The Ideals are all based on the 40 parables from TWoK. When Nohadon and Ishar made the KR, they made them follow the Oaths. The spren probably adapted the system to fit.

[Ren]

Wasn't it Tanavast who was surprised that spren tried to mimic the Honorblades and the Surgebinding they provided?

The way I see it, the spren weren't forced or commanded. They did something that neither Honor nor the Heralds thought about.

They watched Honor give 10 men powers to fight Odium. Spren, at least some of them, fear Odium and it was in their interest to form Nahel bonds and to give the power of Surgebinding. There were always intelligent spren in the Cognitive Realm, but they lose their mind when they come to the Physical Realm unless they form a Nahel bond. 

Spren have cities, they have societies and all.. the Nahel bond is a mutual agreement in some way. You follow our spren-type (Honorspren for example) oaths (or checks as Syl named them) and we give you Surgebinding and awesome stuff to do what is needed.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Ren

[kari-no-sugata]

It's from the Way of Kings (in world). The Ideals are all based on the 40 parables from TWoK. When Nohadon and Ishar made the KR, they made them follow the Oaths. The spren probably adapted the system to fit.

 

Teft says there were 40 ideals, 4 per order in WoK. But we know this to be wrong - Shallan certainly doesn't have 4. Teft says the KR took their "inspiration" from the WoK book but we don't know how accurate that is or exactly what it means. The book does have 40 parables but at the moment we have no reason to relate this to the number of KR ideals.

 

On a side note, the WoK book is very much aimed at monarchs based on the quotes we've seen. Certainly Nohadon was frustrated about Surgebinders going bad but his actual book seemed much more aimed at kings than Surgebinders. Hence "the way of kings" rather than "the way of chivalry", though that's not to say that the KR didn't take moral inspiration from the book.

 

It does seem quite likely though that "Surgebinders using the Nahel bond" were around for a long time before Nohadon, perhaps even 1000+ years. I'd bit rather surprised if after all that time all the KR spren decided to change because of a book.

 

 

PS I'm not in any way criticizing Teft here. There's big problems with keeping accurate knowledge across 1000s of years - Jasnah spends a lot of time worrying about the accuracy of any of her sources and she's a super-informed expert.

[Aoibheann]

Shallan does have ideals, they are a more liberal interpretation of ideals.  Shallan must achieve a level of enlightenment or self-awareness.  She gets there by speaking or acknowledging truths about herself.

 

WoB (thanks RShara!) says Shallan at the end of WoR is one "level" above Kaladin.  I understand Kaladin is at Level 3 based on the ideals he has sworn.  I believe each order has 4 ideals beyond the first "universal" ideal. 

 

Kaladin has 2 more levels/ideals to go, Shallan has 1 more.  Presumably the last ideal potentially allows Shardplate.