Religion and the Cosmere

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

My attempt at making a catchy opening is failing, so I'll just be up front: I have a couple of different theories that are all based on religion and mythology. I'd like to see if anybody else has made these connections in the books.

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

So this is the first theory...

Note: this is mostly Mistborn based, I hope to add more to it soon.

One of my main ideas is that the power of the shard does not a god make. Of course this depends on your definition of god and religion. It seems to me that the western jewish-christian concept of god would probably be the best to go with. God is a being who created the universe and all that it is in it, god is the ruler of said universe, the religion of that god is the one true religion and all others are false, and god is omnipresent and omnipotent.

Omnipresent and Omnipotent

"The creature--or the force, or whatever it was--wasn't omnipotent." The Hero of Ages Page 120. Earlier in the passage it says that Ruin was busy elsewhere and thus not paying attention to Marsh. While later on Marsh goes on to muse that Ruin could see everything except for what is inside of a mans mind. While on page 642 of The Hero of Ages Sazed brings up another point about Ruin and Metal, "Though metal served an important function in keeping Ruin from modifying--or perhaps even reading--their contents." These facts implies that Ruin has limitations on him. Ruin is neither omnipresent or omnipotent, and the same can be said for his counterpart preservation. Even preservations form, the mists, is restricted from entering buildings. I haven't found enough information from the other books to confirm this about the other shards.

God is the ruler of said universe

This one is a little more tricky, seeing as on Scadrial we are dealing with two shards, while on Roshar we have again two shards possibly more. Although in the case of Ruin and Preservation we have a much more traditional rivalry between these two forces that could be compared to God vs. Satan. Especially when comparing christianity to the Kandra/Terris religion. Yet it is said that Ruin and Preservation are equals, on page 624 of The Hero of Ages. Whilst Christianity claims that God will eventually overpower Satan. The interaction between Ruin and Preservation has a much more ying and yang component to it, it is the fight between these two equal powers that controls what happens on the planet. I'm pretty sure that this can also be said about Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. What I've found about Ruin and Preservation not being omnipresent and omnipotent can also be applied here. If two Gods were the rulers of the planet would they purposely put these restrictions on themselves? I very much doubt it. Although it could be argued that Ruin and Preservation put these restrictions on each other, rather than on themselves. Personally I do not believe that is the case.

The religion of that god is the one true religion and all others are false

I believe that this point requires another definition. What is true and what is false in religion? This is touched on in The Hero of Ages, it could be a main theme in the book. Yet what it comes down to in the book is faith. Faith is what makes religion real, not the facts. Since faith is such a personal choice, and the observations of faith are of perception and not concrete, we can never say that one religion is true or false. In fact right after Sazed has his revelation about faith he goes on to say, "You taught me too survivor... Thank you." The Hero of Ages page 656. This is very important because both of the facts behind the terris/kandra religion and surivivorism are true, in a way. Like all religions they get changed and warped over time but both of these religions facts are true. Yet they do not have the same religious doctrine or beliefs. Once again the notion of shardholders being "gods" does not seem to line up.

God is a being who created the universe and all that it is in it

This is the only point that lines up with what I've found. Ruin and Preservation did create sentient life on Scadrial and their powers can be used to change the land scape, and even the placement of that planet. But does this one connection make them gods? I don't think so.

Now the biggest flaw in my theory here is that Ruin and Preservation are called gods in the books. I think this may be a case of an author using a word from reality to describe a concept from his or her imagination to help the reader connect with the concept. We shall see.

[Eerongal]

well, as you pointed out in your first paragraph there, it really depends on your definition of a god. No a shard holder is not (generally) omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. etc.

However, they do have powers beyond that of your average mortal. So far so as to even have the powers of creation of life in at least some capacity.

Here is merriam-webster's definition of god:

Definition of GOD

1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: asa : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universeb Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship;specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality3: a person or thing of supreme value4: a powerful ruler

To me, it seems you're trying to relate shard holders to number 1. As in, compared to THE god, not just being A god.

Now, the second definition fits any given shard holder pretty well to a T. 3 and 4 fit i suppose, but not really what we're going for in any capacity.

Did a shardholder create the universe? probably not. Did they create any/all life? Some did. Is any particular one the RULER of the universe? Nope. Do they have godly powers bestowed upon them? Absolutely.

Does any of this qualify/disqualify them from being gods? that's up to the person judging i suppose.

For me, I personally say the are gods, so long as your definition of god is more akin to polytheistic interpretations of gods, and not modern day monotheism, because while they may all be considered supreme beings, none of them are THE supreme being.

Edit: oh, also, as i see this is your first posts, welcome to the forums

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

I have another theory that I need to flush out more that will explain a little bit more on why I don't believe the shard holders are gods. You are definitely right on the comparison between mono- and poly-theistic. Again that comes up in the next thing I want to post.

[Eerongal]

I have another theory that I need to flush out more that will explain a little bit more on why I don't believe the shard holders are gods. You are definitely right on the comparison between mono- and poly-theistic. Again that comes up in the next thing I want to post.

well, then, i certainly look forward to hearing it.

[Mad_Scientist]

Hello Freja, and welcome to the 17th Shard!

When it comes to fantasy novels, I have two general concepts regarding god: "God with a capital G" and "god with a lowercase g".

God with a capital G is something that is vaguely close to the judeo-christian concept of God, and least in terms of power and abilities. A single being that is creator of all, and omnipotent, or close to it. A lot of fantasy books don't seem to have this. Clearly, the Shards from Brandon's cosmere books do not fit this concept. Adonalsium, whatever he/it is, might, though the fact that Adonalsium shattered is kind of a point against the whole omnipotent thing, unless Adonalsium shattered purposely for some reason. We don'rt really know enough about Adonalsium to judge either way at this point.

But then we have god with a lowercase g, which I realize now is something I've never properly defined. Generally, I've looked at real life religions which contained multiple gods, such as the religions of ancient Greece, and asked myself "is this possible god from fantasy book X at least as impressive as an old greek god?" That's kind of a poor way to define things, though.

I still don't have a definition I really like, but I'd say that Shardholders qualify as gods with a lowercase g. They hold pieces of the power of creation itself after all. Their powers are clearly divine in origin, and they are far, far above mortals. They can create life, or at least some of them can. They are in general, far more powerful than the greek gods.

But it becomes a bit more confusing when dealing with things like The Lord Ruler, Elantrians, and the Returned. Do any of them count as gods? I'm not sure.

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

Thank you both for your warm welcomes!

I like your distinction between God and god. Comparing fantasy gods to Greek god is a pretty good way to judge. I definitely agree that the shardholders are of the lower case g type.

I really haven't thought about The Lord Ruler, Elantrians, and the Returned.

[Chaos]

Indeed, in the annotations Brandon said that Sazed has become more of a Greek god, a higher being, rather than the God.

I personally doubt that he would ever say what God's true nature is in the cosmere because that can be easily offensive to people.

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

As of right now I'm going to split the second theory into two different parts. I will start with the rules.

Note: Forgive my academic mumbo jumbo that sounds fancier and more in depth than it really is.

Logos is a concept most people I've talked to have heard of from Aristotle's analysis of argument, as the logical component of an argument. The concept of logos goes way beyond that. Logos is an important concept for religious Greeks, Jews, and Christians. I will start with the Greeks. Logos, besides meaning word and logic, has a mystical aspect to it. To the Greeks logos was what "ruled over the gods". Logos was a force of the universe, not a god, but like a god. Logos was the main reason for everything being the way it was in the universe, and even the gods had to act inside of logos' parameters.

So how does this connect with the cosmere? Well as I talked about in my earlier post, the shardholders are granted extraordinary powers but it seems that they have random restrictions placed on them. While Mad_Scientist and Chaos already pointed out the connection between the Greek gods and the shardholders. Now I cannot prove that the same restrictions are put on each shardholder, yet I think Chaos's principal of intent may be one of those restrictions. Perhaps the inability for Ruin to read human's minds might be another, I don't have enough information to really prove this.

Now onto the Jewish concept of Logos. To the Jewish Logos was a way to reconnect with God. The logical workings of the universe were God's workings in the world. Again the logos was a part of God but not god. The Jews adapted this concept from the Greeks. Taking a polytheistic concept and making it fit in to a monotheistic religion.

Again what does this have to do with the cosmere? Well that goes into my next theory that I will post later rather than boring you all to death with more religious ramblings.

And on to the Christian concept of Logos. To Christians Jesus is the logos. God sent his son, the word and logic, to reconnect with his creations and save them. Which is outlined ine the first passage of the gospel of John "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." Not to ruin the story of Jesus for you but when he dies comes back from the dead as a zombie and then goes back to heaven a new part of god is sent down to the world, the holy spirit. Most christians who believe in the trinity of Father, Son, and The Holy Ghost believe that the holy ghost is logos.

So a guy has a power that allows him to do all kind of magical things through the power of an abstract concept called logos and when he dies the logos is left in the world to help everyone reconnect to him? It sounds a little bit like what happened with Honor and The Almighty. The only problem is that there is no real confirmed God or power controlling all the events in the cosmere. We don't even really have proof that there is a concept like Logos in the cosmere. Although it is my opinion that there is. We will have to wait for more information though, as always. As for having a monotheistic God in the cosmere, well that is my next post.