Fabrials (Everyone's Got Them!)

[Moogle]

Sorry for the long post! This post is musings on fabrials and how magic generally works in the Cosmere. It's unlikely to be anything we don't already know, but I think it leads into a theory for fabrial creation quite nicely. I've previously brought it up, but as a footnote in a different post, so I don't think it got enough attention.

 

The post is intended to cover:

• A brief summary of how magic works in the Cosmere.
• Why every Shardworld will have fabrials of a sort (they're not limited to Roshar!).
• A proposed mechanism for why a fabrial on Roshar functions.

 

Forms Modulate Investiture

Magic is 'simple' in the Cosmere: you take raw energy (Investiture), and you 'filter' it through a form. The result is a specialized effect. It can be more advanced - there's evidence that raw Investiture mimics already specialized Investiture, as I've previously speculated.

 

What's a form?. Essentially, it's an idea - but it can be a shape, or a pattern, or quite a few things. It's easier to show examples:

• On Scadrial, metals act as a form for Allomancy. Their molecular structure filters Investiture. Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are a little more complex to explain, as the Investiture has already been turned into the specialized effect. Metal just acts as a store for the Investiture, though it's not a coincidence that the attributes will only be stored in certain types of metal.
• On Sel, shapes act as a form for AonDor and every other system. The specific movements made by a practitioner of ChayShan bring power to them. Shapes drawn in the air by Elantrians can do almost anything. The bones of Dakhor monks are twisted into certain shapes, which creates effects like being resistant to AonDor and being stronger.
• On Nalthis, Commands act as forms for Awakening. You clearly visualize a Command - "grab things", and speak it, then grant the Command your Breath.
• (Theorized) On Roshar, spren act as forms for Surgebinding (which is itself a small subset of possible things you can do). Spren are living ideas (collections of forms, I would say), through which you can filter Investiture. More on this later; it's how I theorize fabrials work!
• (Theorized) On Ashyn, planet of the Silence Divine, diseases/sickness grant people superpowers, like you get strep throat and suddenly you have heat vision. It seems likely that the genetic code of viruses/bacteria act as a form for Investiture.

 

Every Shardworld Has Fabrials

As it turns out, most worlds have things similar to fabrials.

• (Theorized, with WoB support) On Scadrial, you can infuse metals with the mists. It seems likely that this is how the mechanical Allomancy and Feruchemy of the southern continent works - the metal acts as the form, and Investiture from the mists powers it. Who needs to be an Allomancer, huh? There's many interesting WoBs on this, which this post is too long to contain.
• Roshar has them obviously. You capture a spren in a specially faceted gem, give it Investiture, and intriguing things happen.
• Sel has this: Aons carved onto metal act like fabrials. You touch a metal plate, and it transports you to another place in the city. Elantris itself could be seen as a fabrial. I think it would not be too far off the mark to say that Dakhor monks' bones are themselves fabrials.
• On Nalthis, everything is basically already a fabrial. "Grab things when thrown" makes a rope into a rather nice magical weapon. I theorize, based on this, that Awakening can be used to do non-fabrial things. For example, it might be possible to yell "Burn!", give up your Breath, and create a gout of fire without ever infusing it into an object. This is unlikely, I think, but we barely know how Awakening works. I think there's bound to be some more interesting aspects to it that we have not learned.

 

What's special about Roshar? Well, for one, the forms of Roshar are just as potentially expressive as Elantris' forms. Spren are living forms, and there are spren for almost everything. It would not be farfetched to say that you could probably make a fabrial do anything you think of by capturing the right spren in the right gem (barring the need for tons of Stormlight and huge gems).

 

How Rosharan Fabrials Work

And now, for the actual theory part of this post!

 

Fabrials are constructed by choosing a gem type, faceting it into a certain shape, and then capturing a spren inside of it. The facets of the gem control how Stormlight is filtered through it, it seems, and attracts the spren. See Navani's notebook for the evidence behind this.

 

So, the mechanism for fabrials I propose is:

 

A spren is trapped in a fabrial. A specific form from the spren is allowed to express itself based on the faceting of the gem (the faceting of the gem causes Stormlight in it to shine in a specific pattern, or form). Investiture from the gem is then filtered through this form, and your fabrial does various things. A flamespren trapped in a ruby faceted to be the shape of 'heat' starts to get hot when infused.

 

To go more in depth as to the why: a fabrial needs a spren to work. Just faceting the gem isn't enough. But if you facet the gem, then it attracts the spren. I would guess that the facets of the gem act as a 'physical form' of the spren, much like fire is the physical form of flamespren. Stormlight filtered through fabrials makes a curious pattern of light, which seems to be the form we're searching for on Roshar. I propose that spren are bundles of forms: flamespren are heat and light and flickering and soul and pain and lots of other things. Flamespren are attracted to fire; the 'heat' form in flamespren is attracted to a gem that says 'heat' (by being properly faceted). Once inside the gem, the spren finally acts as a form through which Investiture can be filtered. We give the gem Investiture, and voila! we get specialized effects.

 

A flamespren can represent pain (fire is associated with ouchies?). Stick it in a specially faceted emerald, give it Investiture, and it causes great pain to whoever is touching it. A painrial! Stick it in a different gem type, and it can reduce pain instead of increasing it; now we have the fabrial that Navani showed Adolin. What, exactly, the gem type does in the case of new fabrials is not something I understand. I hope for somebody else to expand on this. I suspect it has to do with the fabrial type (one gemtype augments the form their spren has, others diminish it, others cause the fabrial to become a 'sensing' fabrial). Under this theory, though, heating fabrials (rubies) and pain-increasing fabrials (painknife, which uses an emerald?) should use the same type of gem, though, since they're both augmenting fabrials. They don't, I think. It could be that the gem type defines the target - emerald defines the target as the soul for pain, ruby defines the Physical to be heated? What does it mean to heat the soul (is this pain)? Please chime in with theories on this if you can!

 

To extend this theory to Surgebinders, we see that every Surgebinder bonds with a spren. The spren are collections of forms. Honorspren, for example, are gravity and pressure (and other things). These forms are basically attached to the Surgebinder, and suddenly he or she can suck in raw Investiture from gems, filter it through his bonded spren (or his own soul which now has the forms?), and things happen. Surgebinders are limited compared to fabrials, but they have the advantage of having a finer control and are likely much more powerful. Why this is the case, I am not sure.

 

Old and New

So why the difference between new-style fabrials and old-style fabrials that the Radiants had?

 

We know that fabrials can replicate all the Surgebinding powers. We see this in Soulcasters and the Regrowth fabrial Dalinar sees in his vision. New fabrials rely on trapping spren in faceted gemstones, but old fabrials have replaceable gems (in the case of Soulcasters).

 

Old fabrials seem to use the gemtypes as ways to target the fabrial, too. Soulcasters use sapphires to tell things to turn into air, Regrowth-fabrials use heliodors and topazes to target the flesh and bone for healing. A Regrowth fabrial may be capable of using a ruby to heal Shardblade wounds, since they are of the soul. This is the advantage of Surgebinders - fabrials need gems to give the magic an intent, but Surgebinders can just think of their intent themselves, resulting in finer control. (This is at odds with how even Surgebinder Soulcasters seem to require certain gemtypes to Soulcast certain materials. I am interested if anyone can explain that.)

 

Here we get into shaky territory: I propose that old fabrials did not in fact contain spren. Their shape acted as the form required to Surgebind, and it was such a fundamental shape that no spren were required. The shape of a Soulcaster seems to be patterned after the actual Surge's picture (it's at the bottom left, the little circle between the red order and the blue order). Soulcasters have three spots for gems; the Transformation Surge seems to have three defined 'gem sockets', if you squint - providing places for the three gems on a Soulcaster. All Soulcasters look the same. I suspect the framework of metal that Dalinar saw in the Regrowth fabrial looks similar to the Growth Surge. The Transportation Surge looks vaguely gate-like - Oathgates. (Please note that this paragraph is RAMPANT SPECULATION.)

 

But why, if it's just the shape, can the old fabrials not easily be replicated? I don't know - perhaps Surgebinders had to craft the fabrials themselves, and the spren had to grant their own form to the metal shape. Something to do with intent? Maybe they have to be exactly perfect, which means all fabrials had to be Soulcast. I suspect my theory is wrong, because fabrials should be ridiculously common if it were that easy. WoR spoilers:

Shallan's Soulcaster is speculated to be broken because some things are out of alignment. It sounds very finnicky and like it has to be perfect.

 

Something I think my theory is missing is that modern fabrials also seem to use metal shapes, though I don't know how important it is. Navani speaks of working backwards from a differently shaped fabrial when creating her pain-reducing fabrial - if all that is required is the gem, why would her device be so bulky?

 

 

So, there you go - all my musings on fabrials. Please dissect anything you think I've got wrong, and add your own thoughts. I am not satisfied with any previous theories of fabrials I've found, hence why I made this one. If there's already a thread with the same ideas, I apologize, because I couldn't find it! Sorry for the length.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

Stop coming up with great theories. It makes us all jealous.

[+Aletus]

Upvote because absolutely awesome and well assembled theory

[bartbug]

I think that sprens are not the form for fabrials, but are the investiture instead (much like a misting uses constant innate investiture to create a constant effect). However, in surgebindings, I can very much see the bond between the Surgebinder and the spren as the form. Then, it explains how Ideals of Radiance, which logically would strengthen the bond, grant greater surgebinding powers.

 

See, we have to use what we know from WoB. Like, we know that Seons are the comparisons to Spren. So, we should look at that comparison, then extrapolate.

 

Great Theory, though.

[ccstat]

Lots of things to like here.
I think you are definitely on to something with the fabrial-like applications of the various magic systems. That all sounds very accurate and simple. Consider me fully convinced on that point.

 

 
Spren as Forms:
I'm slightly more skeptical about this, but the more I think about it the more convinced I get. The idea that spren are "bundles of forms" and the fabrial does the job of both invoking and modifying the effect makes a lot of sense, especially in your flamespren example.

However, with regard to surgebinders, I think Nahel spren are a different class.

Honorspren, for example, are gravity and pressure (and other things). These forms are basically attached to the Surgebinder, and suddenly he or she can suck in raw Investiture from gems, filter it through his bonded spren

With all of Jasnah's talk about "spren politics" and how Syl says natural laws are more like "an agreement between friends," my belief is that surgebinders have access to leverage on certain classes of spren via the influence of their bonded Nahel spren. An Honorspren's mix does not include gravity and pressure, but it does have friends among the gravity and pressure spren and therefore access to those forms.

Part of the reason this makes sense to me is because when Kaladin uses a full lashing to stick rocks to the wall, it is not Syl that holds the stones in place--instead there are other tiny spren there. This seems like a case of delegation or subcontracting, where the currency is stormlight (investiture).

 

 

Fabrial Shape and Construction:
I love your idea of soulcasters looking like the corresponding surge glyph. I can see that working for the oathgates and other fabrials too. I looked up the description of Regrowth, but all it says is "fine metal framework." 
(Hmm, that could give more significance to the transient glowing glyphs that appear on the old KR shardplate in Dalinar's visions. More "forms" brought into play dynamically by the spren.)
I think that there may be more to it that simply copying the glyphs. We still don't know what the so-called "Voidbinding" chart actually is, but it is clear that the glyphs there are stylized permutations of the ones in the surgebinding chart. That means that tweaking the shape should be one way to give you a related-but-different effect.
 

Something I think my theory is missing is that modern fabrials also seem to use metal shapes, though I don't know how important it is. Navani speaks of working backwards from a differently shaped fabrial when creating her pain-reducing fabrial - if all that is required is the gem, why would her device be so bulky?

Even if the gems are less interchangeable than in the old-style fabrials, I don't think that the metal housing is dispensable in new ones. In the actual development/discovery of a new fabrial, it is probably not trivial to prune out the non-essential baggage from the design process to find the minimum components necessary. You probably get something that works and stick with it even if that includes some extraneous artifacts.
 

Stick it in a different gem type, and it can reduce pain instead of increasing it; now we have the fabrial that Navani showed Adolin. What, exactly, the gem type does in the case of new fabrials is not something I understand.

I'll have to go back and review the quotes about fabrials from that section and the Ars Arcanum and think about the effect of gem-type. My suspicion is that gemstone has more influence on the type of spren attracted (or the subform accessed), while the augmenting/reducing effect would result from the design of the whole thing including the metal shape.

 

About gem types for soulcasting:

This is the advantage of Surgebinders - fabrials need gems to give the magic an intent, but Surgebinders can just think of their intent themselves, resulting in finer control. (This is at odds with how even Surgebinder Soulcasters seem to require certain gemtypes to Soulcast certain materials. I am interested if anyone can explain that.)

Brandon has said that the requirement of specific gems is particular to soulcasting. I suspect that this is because the soulcaster (human or fabrial) provides the form for "transformation" surge, but the target object needs additional complex instruction on what to change into. That ancillary information (not sure if this qualifies as a "form" by your definitions) is provided by the gem filtering the stormlight. 
Compare this to a basic lashing, for example, where the "gravitation" surge effect is provided via the form (spren), and the ancillary instruction (direction of the new "down") is simple enough that it can be provided by the intent of the surgebinder.
Soulcasting is simply too versatile to be adequately directed by user intent alone. (Alternatively expressed: the process of transformation is complex enough that the object being soulcast takes intrinsic cues from the gemstone that can't be overruled by user intent.)

[Moogle]

Thank you for the thoughts, ccstat! I appreciate the in-depth and thoughtful response.
 

Spren as Forms:
However, with regard to surgebinders, I think Nahel spren are a different class.
With all of Jasnah's talk about "spren politics" and how Syl says natural laws are more like "an agreement between friends," my belief is that surgebinders have access to leverage on certain classes of spren via the influence of their bonded Nahel spren. An Honorspren's mix does not include gravity and pressure, but it does have friends among the gravity and pressure spren and therefore access to those forms.
Part of the reason this makes sense to me is because when Kaladin uses a full lashing to stick rocks to the wall, it is not Syl that holds the stones in place--instead there are other tiny spren there. This seems like a case of delegation or subcontracting, where the currency is stormlight (investiture).

 
I really like this idea. The idea of using Stormlight as a currency and subcontracting work out seems right, particularly in regards to how we see Soulcasting work.
 
That said, I feel that Syl having both gravity and pressure works better. I feel you're attributing too much significance to Syl's quote.

• Syl floats, ignoring gravity whenever she wants. Other spren are not capable of this, like Wyndle. You'd argue that Syl just asks her friends to suspend the laws for her, I think, but I think it's easier to just say that she's able to ignore gravity because she's got part of it bound to her and she can manipulate that.
• Syl can bind people's feet to the floor. (You could argue she's just asking bindspren to do this, though, yeah.)
• Wyndle himself 'grows' to move around. I think it's easy to see how he could represent Growth, though Friction is harder.

I think Nahel spren are just spren with more Honor or Cultivation. Take a windspren, add in an extra heaping of Honor, and you get an honorspren - a cousin of the windspren. Nahel spren are intelligent because of the extra Investiture, I think, and the extra Investiture (from Honor, in Syl's case) gives them another 'form' (honor in Syl's case) which changes them slightly while allowing them to keep the old forms.

 

Random thought: Why do only ten types of spren receive this Investiture if the theory is true? Is it a conscious choice on Honor/Cultivation's part, like Preservation and the 16 metals of the Allomantic Table (which he altered)? Could honorspren (Windrunner spren not the general category) stop being Nahel spren and a different type of spren take their place as Windrunner-bonding spren? I see a connection between this possibility and Preservation changing atium/malatium. I think very strongly that a Shard could find an alternative to honorspren (perhaps sticky-balloon spren to get both pressure and gravity) and replace honorspren.

 

I'll have to go back and review the quotes about fabrials from that section and the Ars Arcanum and think about the effect of gem-type. My suspicion is that gemstone has more influence on the type of spren attracted (or the subform accessed), while the augmenting/reducing effect would result from the design of the whole thing including the metal shape.

 

I suspect that flamespren are in both rubies (to make heating fabrials) and emeralds (to make pain knives). My intuition says that using an amethyst (gem opposite ruby) for a heating fabrial will result in a cooling fabrial - but I don't know if it will still require a flamespren. Is cooling something a result of decreasing heat, or increasing cold? Would both work?

 

 

 

About gem types for soulcasting:

Brandon has said that the requirement of specific gems is particular to soulcasting. I suspect that this is because the soulcaster (human or fabrial) provides the form for "transformation" surge, but the target object needs additional complex instruction on what to change into. That ancillary information (not sure if this qualifies as a "form" by your definitions) is provided by the gem filtering the stormlight. 
Compare this to a basic lashing, for example, where the "gravitation" surge effect is provided via the form (spren), and the ancillary instruction (direction of the new "down") is simple enough that it can be provided by the intent of the surgebinder.
Soulcasting is simply too versatile to be adequately directed by user intent alone. (Alternatively expressed: the process of transformation is complex enough that the object being soulcast takes intrinsic cues from the gemstone that can't be overruled by user intent.)

 

I think you're thinking along the right lines here. I've had similar thoughts about Soulcasting being super complex, which is why it requires the Cognitive Realm. Thinking on the Physical level, about atoms changing into different elements, is difficult - but in Shadesmar, abstractions are easy, because it is a realm made of abstractions. A single bead represents a castle, so you can use that to figure out what to transform and how.

 

I'm thinking that Shadesmar is not needed for Soulcasting, but it is used because it is too difficult for a puny human brain to grasp something in its entirety and change its spirit without abstraction. (As a computer engineer, I understand the value of abstraction very well. It's the reason computers can be built at all.)

 

Anyways, because of that, requiring a gem type to properly get the abstract direction of something to turn into makes sense. I'm not 100% convinced, but you've settled a lot of niggling questions I've had.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

Actually, from where are we getting the impression that the Pain Knife uses emeralds? I just looked at the Navani drawing in the Coppermind, and while it does show a picture of an emerald with a flamespren in it, it never states that that has anything to do with the painknife. And now I'm thinking it is actually amethyst that acts as a Pain Increaser, since according to the Coppermind the Pain Decreasers are rubies, on the opposite side from amethysts.

[Moogle]

Actually, from where are we getting the impression that the Pain Knife uses emeralds? I just looked at the Navani drawing in the Coppermind, and while it does show a picture of an emerald with a flamespren in it, it never states that that has anything to do with the painknife. And now I'm thinking it is actually amethyst that acts as a Pain Increaser, since according to the Coppermind the Pain Decreasers are rubies, on the opposite side from amethysts.

 

Yeah, the connection is tenuous and uncertain. However, if you look at the image in question then you will find that the emerald with the flamespren looks the exact same as the gem used in the fabrial.

 

I was thinking there may be a problem with "spren as bundles of forms", actually. It's quite possible that each spren is only a single form. I'm just not certain how 'basic' a form is and whether larger forms can be composed of smaller ones. I expect wind to be a form, since there are fabrials that create gusts of wind. Navani's notebook lists gravity, heat, cold, gravity, and pain as different types. As well, there's disgust, anger, anticipation, disgust, sadness, surprise, joy, and other such emotional fabrials.

 

For a pain knife, I'd expect to see a painspren used. However, I'd expect a flamespren in a ruby to be a heating fabrial (this is possibly how they are made - all we know is that heating fabrials use rubies). What does a flamespren in an emerald do, though?

 

We've got:

• Augmenters: heating fabrials use rubies. The pain knife (possibly uses emerald). Half-shards have enhanced durability. The Ars Arcanum author notes "I am guessing that any one of the ten Polestones will work."
• Alerters: emotion fabrials (unknown type of gem), warning fabrials (uses heliodors). The Ars Arcanum author notes "These fabrials use a heliodor stone as their focus." He/she admits she doesn't know if other types work.
• Diminishers: Navani's pain reduction fabrial (unknown type).
• Pairing fabrials, conjoiners and reversers. Spanreeds use rubies, but amethysts can be used for reverse-spanreeds, where things follow the opposite motion of their paired gem. Of note, amethysts are on the opposite side of the Eye from rubies and there is a line connecting the two.

It is interesting to note that every single fabrial we've seen uses a metal framework of some kind. Even Rysn finds this with the warning fabrial her babsk bought.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

The Artifabrian Longshadow designed a painrial that was quite large, about the size of a fist,[2] and had a set of claw-like legs which were wrapped around the pained area and locked in place with a clip.[1] That particular painrial was powered by a ruby and made of polished brass.[2]

Now, this is from the coppermind, and I have no book to confirm it with. But it seems that painrials, or at least that specific one, are made of ruby. If the Pain Knife is indeed made from emerald, then that would invalidate the idea that opposite gems can have opposite effects.

As for examples of fabrials, we also have the grandbows and half-shards, which are apparently Augmenters that enhance durability (again, Coppermind). No gem is given, though I'm inclined to guess Amethyst (essence foil) or Topaz (essence talus, as well as from an Order containing the surface tension surge).

[Moogle]

The exact quote is:

 

Navani placed something on her table, a device of polished brass about the size of a fist, with a large, infused ruby at its center. The red Stormlight lit the entire table, throwing shadows down the white tablecloth. Navani picked up the device, rotating it to show her dinner companions its leglike protrusions. Turned that way, it looked vaguely crustacean.

 

Here's another quote about it:

 

“It’s kind of bulky,” Dalinar noted. “Well, it’s just an early model,” Navani said defensively. “I was working backward from one of those dreadful creations of Longshadow’s, and I didn’t have the luxury of refining the shape."

 

It definitely suggests that the shape matters a great deal. It is probably not a coincidence that every single fabrial we've seen is encased in a metal enclosure. I think the theory about metal conducting Stormlight (I saw it in another thread) is likely correct. It's also interesting that the other Invested objects we see on Roshar are both metal, as well.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[ccstat]

First, the main point. I Just reread the Ars Arcanum. Here are the categories of fabrials as described there:

• Altering Fabrials--Includes both Augmenters and Diminishers, both of which can use any of the 10 polestones
• Pairing Fabrials--includes Conjoiners (ruby) and Reversers (amethyst)
• Warning Fabrials (heliodor)

My conclusions:

• The basic fabrial type (and hence first to be discovered) is augmenting and diminishing. Each of the examples on that page of Navani's notebook fits into one of these categories. Whether a given augmenter's cognate diminisher requires the same gemstone, its opposite, or another stone entirely is not clear. However, I don't agree that the emerald with the trapped flamespren looks like the gem in the pain knife--they appear quite different to me. I am leaning towards all painrials requiring ruby (one spren, one polestone), but I could accept ruby or amethyst (one spren, two possible polestones). The only thing that keeps me from completely dismissing the third idea (one spren, any polestone) is Navani's comment about "There must be thousands of possible combinations."
• Beyond this basic type, each polestone also has a unique fabrial effect, but only 3 out of 10 have been rediscovered in modern Roshar. Ruby and amethyst have opposite effects, though both move things at a distance. Heliodor provides proximity alerts, and I presume that emerald provides some form of the opposite (cloaking, camouflage, etc.)

I think it is noteworthy that the pairing fabrials are based on amethyst and ruby. Amethyst corresponds to Kalak's order, which has access to the transportation surge, while ruby corresponds to the Dustbringers who could access the division surge. Since these fabrials work by dividing the gemstone in half and then moving the two halves in concert, that seems entirely appropriate.
 
How heliodor's proximity effect derives from a surface tension/growth pairing, or else an atmospheric pressure/illumination pairing, is not immediately obvious to me. I could shoehorn it, but I'm guessing there is more to discover.
 
 
Second, an important distinction that I hadn't noticed before. In Navani's notebook the components of the pain knife are helpfully labeled. The labeled "Fabrial" consists of only the cut gem in a wire mounting. The rest appears to be alterable hardware.
 
Also, some tangents that I'm curious about:
The fabrial is made for easy removal so it can be infused. Question: Does the fabrial itself have to be left out in a highstorm or can it be fed stormlight from infused spheres?
The phrasing at the top was interesting: "The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it." I may be reading too much into this, but it sounds like these aren't simple glue traps; the imprisoning part of the process may be more active on the part of the artifabrian than just setting out the gem to attract a spren into it.
 
 
 
Third and finally, an aside about spren:
 

That said, I feel that Syl having both gravity and pressure works better. I feel you're attributing too much significance to Syl's quote.

• Syl floats, ignoring gravity whenever she wants. Other spren are not capable of this, like Wyndle. You'd argue that Syl just asks her friends to suspend the laws for her, I think, but I think it's easier to just say that she's able to ignore gravity because she's got part of it bound to her and she can manipulate that.
• Syl can bind people's feet to the floor. (You could argue she's just asking bindspren to do this, though, yeah.)
• Wyndle himself 'grows' to move around. I think it's easy to see how he could represent Growth, though Friction is harder.

 
Huh, I guess I didn't follow your thought process entirely. I hadn't thought of the spren themselves as being affected that way. I assumed that Syl could ignore gravity because she wasn't actually a physical presence. It's hard for her to affect physical things at all, and I just imagined her ghosting wherever she wished. That didn't seem to be special of Syl, but rather an attribute of all spren.
I hadn't paid attention to Wyndle behaving differently, though now that you bring it up I can see that he doesn't seem to be able to flit about the way Syl does. Maybe Syl is moving more like an air current given her windspren inheritance? I don't know.

[PorridgeBrick]

I'm pretty sure any spren can be used in pretty much any polestone. While I agree that the emerald with the flamespren in it is not the painknife, it is still some sort of fabrial, as is the heat augmenters which most likely also use flamespren. If Navani said there are thousands of possible combinations, then I doubt there would only be 1-2 polestones per spren, and most certainly not 1-2 spren per polestone. And seeing as rubies have demonstrated multiple effects- pain relieving, and spanreeds, and heat augmenters- I really doubt the stones are as limited as you say. Heliodor should be able to do more than proximity alerts, and other gems should also be capable of proximity alerts.

[Moogle]

However, I don't agree that the emerald with the trapped flamespren looks like the gem in the pain knife--they appear quite different to me.

 

They both have three 'levels', they both have had their corners chopped off to become octagons, and most importantly, they both have spren that look like wavy candle flames trapped inside. They seem pretty similar to me.

 

Edit: I've set my skillful hands to the task of creating a device to bring about a chang- er, creating a drawing to illustrate this. Unfortunately, the image looks crappy when blown up. Both gems are clearly octagons (keep in mind that the first picture on the left has un-erased marks to show how it is a sketchbook, which might make you think it's a square at first glance even though it's an octagon), both have three 'levels' of faceting (or three concentric octagons, if that's a thing, when looked at from above) and both have little flamespren in them, which I have circled. I recommend looking at the originals, because the flamespren shape is much clearer.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[skaa]

Great post, Moogle! If you've seen my latest reply to your questions on my own fabrial theory (which was actually two weeks ago; I need to work on Part III of that...), then you already know my rudimentary thoughts on how I think fabrials are made, and why I think Navani's special kind of painrial does what it does.

 

As for calling the Investiture Technology in other Shardworlds "fabrials", I don't know about that. I think it's cool that all Shardworlds have Investiture-related technology. There is one big difference between fabrials and, say, Awakened objects or even Aon-carved objects, though. It is that the Artifabrian does not have to be Invested herself in order to create fabrials. You have to be an Elantrian to create working Aons and you need to have Breath to Awaken objects. But an Artifabrian, from what we've seen so far, can be any normal human as long as he is on Roshar.

 

Now, I'm pretty sure that Southern Scadrians have found a way to harness metals' Allomantic potential without having special Investiture themselves. I guess that kind of technology ("Allomantech") can be considered similar to fabrials. But to call Allomantech devices fabrials? I think we're better off just using the general term "Investiture technology" or similar.

Edited February 12, 2014 by skaa

[Moogle]

Now, I'm pretty sure that Southern Scadrians have found a way to harness metals' Allomantic potential without having special Investiture themselves. I guess that kind of technology ("Allomantech") can be considered similar to fabrials. But to call Allomantech devices fabrials? I think we're better off just using the general term "Investiture technology" or similar.

 

That's fair. I just really like the word fabrial, and I think the mechanical Allomancy creations on Scadrial are sufficiently similar to warrant using the same word. "Investiture technology" is just so... wordy. Fabrial is nice and short and flows off the tongue.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Eri]

Cool idea.

 

I think we'll see quite a lot of Scadrial "fabrials" in the southern continent, in Mistborn Second Trilogy.

[ccstat]

There is one big difference between fabrials and, say, Awakened objects or even Aon-carved objects, though. It is that the Artifabrian does not have to be Invested herself in order to create fabrials. You have to be an Elantrian to create working Aons.

But what about the forgers and bloodsealers in Emperor's Soul? They seem to arrive at their skill sets via study alone. I'm not sure where the Dakhor monks fit.

 

They both have three 'levels', they both have had their corners chopped off to become octagons, and most importantly, they both have spren that look like wavy candle flames trapped inside. They seem pretty similar to me.

To me the dimensions of those octagons are different. The copped corner of the emerald seems shorter than the corresponding edge of the pain fabrial, and the whole emerald looks narrower. The trapped spren don't look similar enough to me to argue that both are the same type. The sketches of untrapped flamespren are also different from what you see in the emerald, suggesting to me that there is some distortion in seeing through the gem or that the spren is constrained in size/shape by the gem. I would think any sketch of a spren-in-a-gem would be too lacking in detail for positive identification of the spren.

 

I'm pretty sure any spren can be used in pretty much any polestone. [...] I doubt there would only be 1-2 polestones per spren, and most certainly not 1-2 spren per polestone. And seeing as rubies have demonstrated multiple effects- pain relieving, and spanreeds, and heat augmenters- I really doubt the stones are as limited as you say. Heliodor should be able to do more than proximity alerts, and other gems should also be capable of proximity alerts.

You could well be right. (To clarify, I was arguing for the 1-2 polestones per spren version, not 1-2 spren per polestone.) 

In my version yes, heliodor can do all sorts of things with all sorts of spren, within the augmenting/diminishing category. But it still has a "special type" effect limited to detection-at-a-distance (with probable variations on that theme). To use the ruby example, they have multiple augmenting/diminishing abilities (pain relief, heating, etc) and the single "special type" effect of conjoining (span reed style).

The way things are categorized in the Ars Arcanum made me think of an incomplete allomantic table. I bet if we figure out enough of the shape behind it we can fill in the blanks.

[Moogle]

To me the dimensions of those octagons are different. The copped corner of the emerald seems shorter than the corresponding edge of the pain fabrial, and the whole emerald looks narrower. The trapped spren don't look similar enough to me to argue that both are the same type. The sketches of untrapped flamespren are also different from what you see in the emerald, suggesting to me that there is some distortion in seeing through the gem or that the spren is constrained in size/shape by the gem. I would think any sketch of a spren-in-a-gem would be too lacking in detail for positive identification of the spren.

 

You're right that the cropped corners seem shorter than the other perspective. That said, I think that can be chalked up to Navani not being a perfect drawer (some of the other art in TWoK has minor errors, too), and it doesn't matter. What matters is the cut and type of gem. A cut of gem does not have exact proportions necessarily. Take a look at Wikipedia's description:

 

Stones whose outlines are either square or rectangular and whose facets are rectilinear and arranged parallel to the girdle are known as step- or trap-cut stones. These stones often have their corners truncated, creating an emerald cut (after its most common application to emerald gemstones) with an octagonal outline. This is done because sharp corners are points of weakness where a diamond may cleave or fracture. Instead of a culet, step-cut stones have a keel running the length of the pavilion terminus. Like other fancy shaped diamonds, emerald cut diamonds can come in a variety of length to width ratios. The most popular and classic outline of emerald cut diamonds are close a value of 1.5.

 

So I would argue they are the same gemstone cut if nothing else.

 

Look at this description of flamespren:

 

She approached the hearth. One of the two flamespren danced about atop a log, shape changing and length flickering like the flames themselves. The other had taken on a far more stable shape. Its length no longer changed, though its form did slightly. It seemed locked somehow. It almost looked like a little person as it danced over the fire. She reached up and erased her notation. It immediately began pulsing and changing erratically like the other one.

 

Flamespren change shape constantly, so the two being different in two different drawings is not surprising. They both seem to be the exact same type of spren, and I'm not sure how to argue this point more effectively.

[skaa]

But what about the forgers and bloodsealers in Emperor's Soul? They seem to arrive at their skill sets via study alone.

Yeah, Soulstamping is probably Sel's version of Normal-Friendly Investiture Technology or NFIT (another wordy term of mine that refers to Investiture Technology that mundane people can create, like fabrials and Allomantech). If the fandom does decide to use "fabrial" as a pan-Cosmere term, then I propose that it should only refer to NFITs.

[ccstat]

Thanks for the patient explanations, Moogle. I can follow your reasoning better now and you make a good case. I still don't agree, but I suspect we'll learn a lot more about fabrial construction and limits and limits in WoR and we'll all have more information to draw from.

 

Regarding the "everyone's got them" idea, I'm having trouble deciding what I think about Awakened objects. As skaa points out, it requires a certain degree of investiture on the part of the person doing the Awakening. Lifeless may actually come closer to the fabrial/NFIT idea, since once they've been made anyone, even drabs, can order them around. But I'm having trouble coming up with a true NFIT system for Nalthis, since any transfer of investiture appears to initiate from an individual holding that investiture--i.e. you have to use your own Breath to do anything. Unless there is some way to power things with color alone (possibly straight from the tears of Edgli) and bypass Breath entirely, we may not be able to satisfy skaa's NFIT definition. (To be fair though, this seems to be a special case due to the intent of Endowment, rather than a difficulty of the theory.)

[Moogle]

Update on the flamespren in emerald debate: the emerald is not intended to be the same as the fabrial used in pain knife according to Isaac Stewart, the artist. I emailed him, so I'm not sure how to provide verifiable proof, but the fact that it shows I'm wrong should be good evidence.

 

So, we're back to square one and know next to nothing, though I would speculate that a painspren is used in the pain knife gem.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle

[ccstat]

Thanks for checking on that. Way to track down answers!