Everstorm Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Hey everyone, New user here, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. I've been lurking for a while, and trying to get up to date with popular theories. I have a question about the two men who Jasnah overheard at Gavilar's death-feast. A quick search didn't throw up any (helpful) topics, so I thought I would create one. From what I picked up from some of the other threads, it seems that some people think that they are both Heralds. They don't both have to be Heralds, right? I agree that one of them is almost definitely Nalan because of the black and silver dress and the white scar. But the other guy seems decidedly unherald-like. I mean, squeaking? Seriously? Since we also think that the drunk guy outside the feast is Ishar, that only leaves Kalak as a possible Herald candidate for the short guy (since Taln is still in Damnation) Also, the man refers to (presumably) Jezrien as my lord. From the WoK prologue we know that Kalak refers to Jezrien by name. Why then, would he revert to My lord millenia later when Jezrien isn't even present? But the question then is, if not a Herald, then what is this person? And to that, I have no answer. Would love to hear your thoughts about this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 He refers to Shallash as "Ash". The familiarity, and talk about getting "worse", implies he's a Herald to me. Based on his squeaking, I'd bet he's Kalak. It matches a corrupt version of Resolute for Kalak to be all squeaky and what-not. Since we also think that the drunk guy outside the feast is Ishar, that only leaves Kalak as a possible Herald candidate for the short guy (since Taln is still in Damnation) I always thought that the drunk beggar was Jezrien. It also matches with Darkness commenting about Jezrien drooling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Wheee! first post! welcome!We know Nalan to have followers. Could have been any of them. People took his familiarity to mean he was a Herald, but really, if the Heralds stuck together for thousands of years, I'm sure they are familiar with more than just the 8 others with them. It could be anyone, you are right. I would still like to believe it is a Herald only because I want to keep tabs on all of them, and that is convenient. Edited January 28, 2014 by Bloodfalcon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everstorm Posted January 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) He refers to Shallash as "Ash". The familiarity, and talk about getting "worse", implies he's a Herald to me. Based on his squeaking, I'd bet he's Kalak. It matches a corrupt version of Resolute for Kalak to be all squeaky and what-not. So I'm guessing the evidence for Ash = Shallash is because her statue is missing and was probably removed that night (assuming that Gavilar would have taken care in his preparations for the feast)? I'm not very sure if I agree about your thoughts on Kalak. I mean, I see how that might be possible given that Shalash (Creative) has turned to destruction, but Nalan still seems to be following some brand of justice. And for a Herald with Resolute as his primary attribute to become this nervous doesn't seem to bode well for the world at all. I thought that the drunk guy was Ishar because of the long beard (as opposed to Jezrien's short beard), but I guess a few thousand years are enough to grow a long beard especially if you've gone senile . I wonder if it's a coincidence though that so many of the Heralds were present at the palace that night... Edited January 28, 2014 by Darkeye 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I also think the beggar is Ishar. The beggar's hair color is wrong for Jezrien. Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed, though his once-fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood. A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly— though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I actually take it from these quotes that Jezrien was the guy... He's not trimming it anymore, he doesn't care, so now is grey and black, and long... Also, being drunk is the worst thing you can do instead of protecting/leading. Look at Dalinar... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 The Drunk Guy as Ishar is just my slightly crackpot theory, along with him also being Thaidakar, leader of the Ghostbloods. Partially because it would be funny. I know the beard fits, but let's not place too much value on the length and style of an immortal character's beard. On the main topic, I'm tending towards Nalan's friend being another Herald, for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. He seems a bit too familiar with Nalan, and makes references to "Ash" and "We". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Hmmm... I am not sure we should necessarily say Nalan is Darkness yet. I is definitely a good fit but it is, as yet, unconfirmed. As for Darkness' friend? I am not sold on his Herald status just yet. We know Darkness has associates and subordinates, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 Hey everyone, New user here, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. I've been lurking for a while, and trying to get up to date with popular theories. I have a question about the two men who Jasnah overheard at Gavilar's death-feast. A quick search didn't throw up any (helpful) topics, so I thought I would create one. From what I picked up from some of the other threads, it seems that some people think that they are both Heralds. They don't both have to be Heralds, right? I agree that one of them is almost definitely Nalan because of the black and silver dress and the white scar. But the other guy seems decidedly unherald-like. I mean, squeaking? Seriously? Since we also think that the drunk guy outside the feast is Ishar, that only leaves Kalak as a possible Herald candidate for the short guy (since Taln is still in Damnation) Also, the man refers to (presumably) Jezrien as my lord. From the WoK prologue we know that Kalak refers to Jezrien by name. Why then, would he revert to My lord millenia later when Jezrien isn't even present? But the question then is, if not a Herald, then what is this person? And to that, I have no answer. Would love to hear your thoughts about this. I always thought the man was referring to Tanavast/honor, as the honorblades were given to the heralds by honor and hence are of honor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elementalist Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I always thought the man was referring to Tanavast/honor, as the honorblades were given to the heralds by honor and hence are of honor! If the "creature" he is referring to is Szeth, Szeth has Jezrien's Honorblade, and Honorblades grant powers according to the Heralds/Orders they come from, then it is likely that "my lord" refers to Jezriens. Then again, it's based on a lot of speculation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I don't understand "my lord's" instead of "our lord's", unless the second guy was Jezrien's subject in his normal pre-Herald days, and still considers him his king, but Darkness was from another nation and doesn't. At least some of the Heralds knew each other before, because Shalash is Jezrien's daughter. That's a lot of guesswork to justify it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I was reading 'my lord' as Tanavast, with the squeaky guy being a Herald, but with the recent near-confirmation of Szeth having an Honorblade, I think it would be more sensical to say that the squeaky crony of Darkness is likely a Radiant that was once a Windrunner. Doesn't quite explain his familiarity with Shallash to the point of calling her Ash, though... hmm. I am very uncertain on this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meamzed Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Now…. in that little muttered conversation, didn't they mention an "Ash" ……… could that be Shalash…….. and Isn't her statue conspicuously missing from gavilars 10 statues? Coooooooooooo-incidence?????? I think not. Mind, I don't know what this might mean, or simply just might not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haxors Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I was reading 'my lord' as Tanavast, with the squeaky guy being a Herald, but with the recent near-confirmation of Szeth having an Honorblade, I think it would be more sensical to say that the squeaky crony of Darkness is likely a Radiant that was once a Windrunner. Doesn't quite explain his familiarity with Shallash to the point of calling her Ash, though... hmm. I am very uncertain on this. I like this idea quite abit, the only problem i have with it is that, as far as we know, the KR were not immortal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I know there is a theory that the Heralds have become twisted versions of their ideals. What if they have also created twisted versions of the Knights Radiants to be their lackeys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I just remembered this from the Lift interlude. I don't know if anyone disputes that Darkness' companion there is the same one as at Gavilar's feast. I figured they're the same. Anyway: “Don’t move,” the minion said, “or I will kill him.” ... The minion slit Gawx’s throat. ... “That was poorly done,” Darkness said to the minion, tone emotionless. Lift barely heard him. So much blood. “You will be punished.” “But...” the minion said. “I had to do as I threatened...” That's so crazy. He's not even a sadist who wanted to kill a child. He only did it because he said he would, and felt compelled to do as he'd said. So I think it's the corrupted "resolute" attribute, and this is another case for him being Kalak. And he's definitely "getting worse". If he were aware of how crazy he was, he wouldn't threaten to kill Gawx in the first place, because he'd know the threat was a terrible risk that he'd have to do it. He doesn't understand how crazy he is. Even after he did it, I don't think he really understands that it's not normal to think that way. edit: The first time I read that part of the Lift interlude, I thought it was exposition awkwardly forced into the plot. Threatening to slit Gawx's throat is stupid. Explaining to Darkness that he had to do as he threatened makes no sense, since Darkness would know, right? It's only done so the reader can see it, I thought. But if the guy is insane and doesn't realize how insane, the bad decision and explanation make sense as something he'd do. Edited January 30, 2014 by Morsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I was reading 'my lord' as Tanavast, with the squeaky guy being a Herald, but with the recent near-confirmation of Szeth having an Honorblade, I think it would be more sensical to say that the squeaky crony of Darkness is likely a Radiant that was once a Windrunner. Doesn't quite explain his familiarity with Shallash to the point of calling her Ash, though... hmm. I am very uncertain on this. I like this idea quite abit, the only problem i have with it is that, as far as we know, the KR were not immortal? I know there is a theory that the Heralds have become twisted versions of their ideals. What if they have also created twisted versions of the Knights Radiants to be their lackeys? Like I said before, if the Heralds typically come back before every Desolation and train a large number of new Surgebinders as KR, that all fits just fine. All the KR were based out of Urithiru, so I'm sure the Heralds were not only familiar with the KR of their Order, but any random KR just as we are friends with people at work that we don't directly work with. Considering there are probably very few KR that they have trained themselves, I'd say they could be very familiar. They wouldn't necessarily have to be twisted KR in the same way, either. They are just trying to learn and do as instructed. I think the Heralds are fundamentally twisted at this point, even though their minions are not. It makes sense for it to be a Windrunner even if they are being trained by another Herald while Jez is out of commission. They are just making poor choices because they are being instructed by a coalition of lunatics. It could easily be another Herald, but it really is hard to believe "my lord's own blade" with that theory, so I prefer this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I like this idea quite abit, the only problem i have with it is that, as far as we know, the KR were not immortal? I've theorized before that they were, based on similarities between Breath and Stormlight, long-lived at the very least. The evidence is very lacking however. Also, I asked Brandon and got a RAFO, so it's not a resounding 'no' at the very least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haxors Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I've theorized before that they were, based on similarities between Breath and Stormlight, long-lived at the very least. The evidence is very lacking however. Also, I asked Brandon and got a RAFO, so it's not a resounding 'no' at the very least. yea i normally take a RAFO to mean you kinda on the right track, THANKS Moogle, cant find that theory you mentioned though would love to check it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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