Scadrial calendar (names of months)

[digitalbusker]

Do we have the names of the months on Scadrial? Or even how many months in a year? (I would guess one of: 16 because Cosmere, 10 because metric, or 12 because inertia.)

 

Off the top of my head the only months whose names we know are Vinuarch and Doxil (both Alloy of Law era).

 

Vinuarch is in "early summer" (AoL Ch3).

Doxil is probably six months after Vinuarch.*

 

I don't recall any descriptions of winter weather during Alloy of Law, which mostly takes place in Doxil, which could be an argument against a 10 or 12 month calendar, but Elendel is a coastal city and I don't know that much about Scadrial's climate post-Final Ascension, so maybe they just have really mild winters.**

 

So, are there others mentioned somewhere? Elenduary, perhaps, or Spooktober? Or Marsh?

 

--

*: The Elendel Daily included in AoL is dated Doxil 4, and based on its description of the introduction of the Breaknaught it seems reasonable to assume that the main action of AoL all takes place in that month. When Wax is doing his initial research on the Vanishers' robberies he places the first robbery in Vinuarch and Tekiel's editorial three months after that, and "a few months back" from the present. Also, we know that six months have passed between Wax receiving the letter about his uncle's death and the beginning of his investigation into the Vanishers. It seems likely that Edwarn's faked accident and the first Vanisher robbery happened near the same time, as the Set started to advance their agenda in earnest.

 

**: I know the flowers in the central park bloom year-round, but Marasi seems to think they wouldn't without the hot springs underneath (AoL Ch10), so it's probably still in a temperate zone.

[FeatherWriter]

I'd guess 16. Our metric system uses sets of 10 so that it lines up with the base-10 number system. Scadrial uses a base-16 number system already, so it stands to reason that their metric equivalent for months would be 16 as well. I don't remember any other month names off the top of my head though. I don't think there were any others mentioned...

[Aether]

Slightly (OK! Completely!) off-topic: Woah! Lady Feather! When did you become staff? Congratulations?!

 

EDIT: Accidental question mark.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Aether

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Our current calendar is based on the relationship between the length of earth's days, the days in a year, and how long it takes the moon to orbit earth, not the seasons. It takes roughly 29 days for a lunar cycle and about 12 of those cycles occur in a year. Before the roman calendar, there were 10 months, likely for simplicity of the metric system. So the question would be if the scadrial calendar is designed to accurately portray the planet's natural cycles (in which case it would be different before and after harmony's ascension and changes) or if it's just based on an arbitrary metric in which case 16 seems the best guess to stick with the theme of the books.

[digitalbusker]

Well Scadrial doesn't have a moon, so there wouldn't be an issue of lunar months messing things up. I'd expect the original (classical) Scadrial calendar to grow out of the seasons since they're the only repeating recurring phenomena in the right timescale. But Scadrial also has a relatively high number of apocalypses and activist gods, so by the time we get to the era of Vinuarch and Doxil, who knows?

[FeatherWriter]

Slightly (OK! Completely!) off-topic: Woah! Lady Feather! When did you become staff? Congratulations?!

 

EDIT: Accidental question mark.

 

Hehe, it was very recent. Friday night, if I recall correctly. The spikes still haven't healed quite yet. Ow. I bragged in my personal topic, but I've been behaving myself mostly out in public. Thanks for the congrats.

 

Back on topic. Yeah, I'd forgotten about the lack of moon. Seems like 16's an even likelier number, with the way the seasons would break down. Four seasons with four months in each? That's a near duplication of the allomantic table. Ooh, now I wonder if Scadrial has a version of the zodiac or some such, where each month corresponds to a specific metal? Wouldn't that be cool?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Ooh, now I wonder if Scadrial has a version of the zodiac or some such, where each month corresponds to a specific metal? Wouldn't that be cool?

Uh oh, you're going to inspire mistborn horoscopes if you aren't careful.

[FeatherWriter]

Uh oh, you're going to inspire mistborn horoscopes if you aren't careful.

 

...Implying that that was not my intent in the first place? C:<

[WeiryWriter]

Yah, I'm inclined to think they would have a 16-month year.  It would make sense with the mythology of the world, not to mention they have a base-16 number system (I think).

[Awesomeness Summoned]

...Implying that that was not my intent in the first place? C:<

No just joking around. Figured that was where you were going so I was attempting a little reverse psychology of implying it would be a bad thing in hopes someone would actually create some horoscopes it to spite me. I think it would be rather entertaining to hear this group's mistborn horoscope ideas.

[Oudeis]

Busker: That... is very, very clever and insightful of you to notice what you have noticed.

 

And I've got nothing else to add that others haven't already mentioned. My one thing I suppose... I think it's been WoB'ed that the coastline of Elendel is a place in the actual Final Empire, though all we know about the Final Empire's climes, really, is that it used to be magnetic north but far, far removed from true North... far enough to not experience abnormal day/night cycles. Luthadel supposedly rarely saw snow, but again, World of Ash, weather was freaky.

 

Dunno if that changes anyone's mind about temperate/what-have-you.

[digitalbusker]

My one thing I suppose... I think it's been WoB'ed that the coastline of Elendel is a place in the actual Final Empire, though all we know about the Final Empire's climes, really, is that it used to be magnetic north but far, far removed from true North... far enough to not experience abnormal day/night cycles. Luthadel supposedly rarely saw snow, but again, World of Ash, weather was freaky.

 

Dunno if that changes anyone's mind about temperate/what-have-you.

Far enough south for Luthadel--and probably the rest of the Empire*--to be below Scadrial's arctic circle, definitely, but who knows how much Rashek changed things when he held the power. We know Harmony moved continents around to match pre-Final Empire maps, but we don't know how far the Terris mountains (the original location of the North Pole) were from the coastline that now houses Elendel. From the two maps I place Elendel in what was the Southern Dominance, northwest of the ashmount Doriel and south of the ashmount Tyrian (now apparently a sea). But again that doesn't tell us anything about latitudes. We don't even know anything about Scadrial's climate outside of the Basin, really. When I first read AoL I tended, probably because of the Western influence, to read Feltrel as hot and dry, like the American Southwest (lots of dust, dry red clay ground), but it's in the Northern Roughs**, and since the prologue doesn't mention temperature*** and it seems like even people who aren't just trying to look cool wear dusters or other outerwear as a matter of course, it's probably more like, say, Utah.

 

Actually, come to think of it, the AoL map shows Elendel as being between 12 and 13 of whatever the relevant denomination of latitude is, so we should be able to compare the latitude lines to the scale to figure out how far it is from the geographic north pole (assuming it's at latitude 0) if we knew the latitude of the equator we could calculate the circumference of Scadrial, too.

 

Wait, no. I'm basing those numbers on the Steel Alphabet on the Coppermind, but the two northernmost latitudes on the map appear to be Malatium and Atium, which aren't mapped to numbers there. So the rest of the reasoning is flawed.

 

And I've now thread-jacked my own thread. We should get on that Allomantic Astrology thing, though.

 

--

*: Nobody mentions the northern parts of the Final Empire having "land of the midnight sun" phenomena, which is not conclusive.

**: I'm assuming the Elendel Basin is still in Scadrial's northern hemisphere, so northern regions would tend to be cooler.

***: Aside from the presence of an "old cold cellar," which I'm assuming is an underground place once used to keep things cool in summer, not a cellar that happens to presently be both cold and old.

[Oudeis]

Busker: You are a genius and meticulous. I like you and wish to discuss more things with you. If you are ever bored and/or have time, I would like to request that you click some of the links in my sig and give me your thoughts on some of my favorite pet theories. I suspect I will be fascinated by your insight.

[digitalbusker]

Busker: You are a genius and meticulous.

At least one of those things is provably untrue, but thanks.

I like you and wish to discuss more things with you. If you are ever bored and/or have time, I would like to request that you click some of the links in my sig and give me your thoughts on some of my favorite pet theories. I suspect I will be fascinated by your insight.

I'll take a look.

[Oudeis]

One thought: I realize we don't know either way for sure, but recall that Luthadel (specifically Kredik Shaw) was magnetic north; as far as we know, the other directions were arbitrary. Next time anyone reads those books, please look out for any mention of the sun rising or setting in the east/west. For all we know, the sun rises in what Scadrians think of as the "north".

[Awesomeness Summoned]

One thought: I realize we don't know either way for sure, but recall that Luthadel (specifically Kredik Shaw) was magnetic north; as far as we know, the other directions were arbitrary. Next time anyone reads those books, please look out for any mention of the sun rising or setting in the east/west. For all we know, the sun rises in what Scadrians think of as the "north".

 

The only way the other directions would be arbitrary is if Brandon decided to change their definition.

 

All large bodies in a solar system rotate and spin along the same flat plane as a natural result of basic physics. The planet's spin is what creates the polar field and will always have the "north" and "south" poles located at the top and bottom of the planet (along the axies the planet is spinning around).  So while we wouldn't know if the sun rise from east or west, it can't, under the laws of physics, rise from north to south.

[Oudeis]

The only way the other directions would be arbitrary is if Brandon decided to change their definition.

 

All large bodies in a solar system rotate and spin along the same flat plane as a natural result of basic physics. The planet's spin is what creates the polar field and will always have the "north" and "south" poles located at the top and bottom of the planet (along the axies the planet is spinning around).  So while we wouldn't know if the sun rise from east or west, it can't, under the laws of physics, rise from north to south.

 

I get all that... except that we know Rashek is already lying about the directions, so why do we assume he's only lying in certain ways? We know now that the magnetic north is nowhere near geographic north. At that point, Rashek could have pointed off to the side and said, "hey, everyone, that way is North now" and who exactly was going to tell him no?

 

I understand what you're saying; that the directions supposedly aren't arbitrary, they exist for a reason. I'm saying, we've already got proof that on Scadrial, yeah, they pretty much are arbitrary. Reason may have gone out the window.

[Aether]

I get all that... except that we know Rashek is already lying about the directions, so why do we assume he's only lying in certain ways? We know now that the magnetic north is nowhere near geographic north.

I would assume that Harmony moved it back to the geographical North, though, considering that he tried to remake Scadrial as close as possible to its pre-Lord Ruler state.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I get all that... except that we know Rashek is already lying about the directions, so why do we assume he's only lying in certain ways? We know now that the magnetic north is nowhere near geographic north. 

I can't honestly remember specifically... does Rashek actually say the magnetic north pole and geographic north pole are different? Because again, by definition, that is impossible. The magnetic and geographic poles aren't in "exactly" the same place but both have to be near the point from which, if the planet is viewed downward, the surrounding planet rotates counterclockwise (well, magnetic north could be at the geographic south pole but that doesn't change the basic idea of the sun's path).

 

All I remember is that he moved Luthadel to where the Terris mountains (in the north) used to be. That would change the land mass locations in relation to the poles but would't actually alter the poles in relation to how the planet rotates around the sun. Rashek was misleading but didn't actually alter the laws of physics in his deception.

[Oudeis]

I would assume that Harmony moved it back to the geographical North, though, considering that he tried to remake Scadrial as close as possible to its pre-Lord Ruler state.

 

Yes, but my point is, even if we orient the map of Elendel from the map of the Final Empire, that doesn't mean we can trust which direction the Final Empire thought "north" was.

 

I can't honestly remember specifically... does Rashek actually say the magnetic north pole and geographic north pole are different? Because again, by definition, that is impossible. The magnetic and geographic poles aren't in "exactly" the same place but both have to be near the point from which, if the planet is viewed downward, the surrounding planet rotates counterclockwise (well, magnetic north could be at the geographic south pole but that doesn't change the basic idea of the sun's path).

 

All I remember is that he moved Luthadel to where the Terris mountains (in the north) used to be. That would change the land mass locations in relation to the poles but would't actually alter the poles in relation to how the planet rotates around the sun. Rashek was misleading but didn't actually alter the laws of physics in his deception.

 

Rashek doesn't say it; Mr. Sanderson does, in his annotations for the book. I am terrible at finding quotes, but I'll try to locate them for you (upvotes to anyone who beats me to it).

 

It breaks down like this: Magnetic north on Scadrial is the location of the Well. Rashek did not know this when he decided to move the well itself to be at a low enough latitude to avoid the "midnight sun" phenomenon; he was surprised when doing so dragged magnetic north along with it. All compasses on Scadrial point directly to Kredik Shaw, which The Lord Ruler used as further proof of his own divinity. He never moved Luthadel, and despite what Vin guesses, he didn't actually flatten the mountains. (Well he might have, but we don't have that proven). He moved the Well itself and, in doing so, moved magnetic north, in defiance of plausible physics.

 

Again, I realize at the moment I'm asking you to take my word on this... I will try to find the relevant quotes for you as soon as I can. The annotations, unfortunately, are not so easily searched as the book itself.

[Aether]

The full commentary can be found here, but I've copied the relevant passage:

What Rashek decided to do (and he had to make split-second decisions in the brief time he held the power) was to shift the crust of the whole planet so that the Well was at a latitude that would have more standard seasonal variation, and to re-create the Terris mountains in the new North (to maintain the rumors that the Well was located there). He worried that the new location of Luthadel would be too hot due to the latitude, but it turned out that moving the Well created an unexpected effect. The planet’s magnetic pole followed the Well as he relocated it—and the ash from the ashmounts was slightly ferromagnetic. (Ferromagnetic volcanic ash has some precedent in our world.) So the interaction of the ash with the planet’s magnetic field’s new alignment meant that its protective cloak over the area of the Final Empire caused it to be cooler than the now unprotected geographic north pole.

- From the Annotations to chapter 76 of Mistborn: The Hero of Ages.

.

EDIT: I have to admit that I am rather impressed at how technical and meticulous Brandon tends to be.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Aether

[Oudeis]

The full commentary can be found here, but I've copied the relevant passage:

.

EDIT: I have to admit that I am rather impressed at how technical and meticulous Brandon tends to be.

 

You are amazing and I love you.

[Aether]

You are amazing and I love you.

I am very fond of you too, Darnam   

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Thanks for that Aether, that clears some things up. I guess a well that endows someone with godlike powers would probably have more effect than the planets natural electromagnetic forces, in which case the magnetic and geographic poles wouldn't need to line up 

[PorridgeBrick]

Actually, in real life the geographic and magnetic poles don't have to line up either. Uranus, for example, has a 60 degree difference between its axis of rotation and its... "magnetic axis", for lack of a better term.