The Heirocracy

[TheShogun]

So looking through and searching the forums, I've noticed a stunning lack of discussion of the Hierocracy.
 
And I've recently noticed something very, very weird about it.
 
It is, at this point in the series, almost irrelevant historical information. If you're like me, you don't mind, because you think something along the lines of "Oh yay another chance to learn more about Roshar in general."
 
But then I realized that nothing in Brandon Sanderson's books is ever irrelevant historical information (at least, not the ones I've read.)

 

So it must be there for a purpose.

 

Any ideas?

 

(unless Brandon plans on blindsiding us by having us make a big deal about this and expect something huge to happen but then no.)

Edited December 24, 2013 by TheShogun

[Shardbearer]

Yes, there is this little theory I proposed awhile back that the prophecies that led to the Hierocracy were true, and the same visions that Dalinar is having.

 

 

P.S. It's i before e in this case, even though that rule doesn't apply all the time. I made the same mistake in another thread and someone pointed it out to me.

[TheShogun]

P.S. It's i before e in this case, even though that rule doesn't apply all the time. I made the same mistake in another thread and someone pointed it out to me.

And again I learn how bad I am at spelling.

[Shardbearer]

It's an easy mistake to make. It looks weird. <-----look, i after e, even with no c

[name_here]

Running theory is that either they or Sunmaker (the guy who overthrew them) were backed by Odium. Either they got real visions from Honor and Odium decided to bring them down or they worked for Odium and falsified visions.

 

Also, the fall of the Hierocracy caused one very important feature of Vorin society beyond distrust of visions: it made the Ardents religiously subordinate to the Brightlords. Dalinar's personal Ardent does not believe he is recieving visions from the Almighty but is not permitted to actually say so because it is not his place to question his lord on religious matters. The resultant implications are subtle but huge.

 

First, it means that a faithful Ardent with a corrupt Brightlord can't rally the people against him, which could be very problematic if Odium sways some of them to his side, but by the same token it's a good thing if the situation is reversed. In Alethkar, Dalinar seems to be rising into power and so it's a good thing.

 

However, another effect means it might not be good overall. Ardents are supposed to obey their superiors in all matters, and different Ardents are ultimately subordinate to different kings. Therefore, there is not actually a unified Vorin church. Sure, Ardents in Alethkar and Jah Keved might preach the same things, but when it comes to commenting on current events they're specifically required to back different people. This means, in turn, that Vorinism cannot command the same level of authority as the Medieval Catholic Church, because they aren't a cohesive multinational organization, and furthermore they can't even try appealing to the faithful to rise up, because doing so would be heretical.

 

Also, the Ardents are kind of unhappy about being basically slaves to powerful warlords who frequently could not care less about religious matters and believe Voidbringers are metaphorical, and Kasbal's rant implies that this is the motivation for the Ghostbloods.

 

Incidentally, there's plenty of historical precedent for kings claiming supreme spiritual authority, with priests permitted to advise but not command on religious matters. Since the kings would generally appoint the priests, they unsurprisingly usually got their way. Catholicism had a lot of messy fights about that before the popes eventually won.;

[TheShogun]

It's an easy mistake to make. It looks weird. <-----look, i after e, even with no c

I consulted my sister, and she says that a better rule is this:

"I" before "E", except after "C," or when sounded as "a," as in "neighbor" or "weigh," but "weird" is just weird.

[TheShogun]

I feel like that isn't something you need the Hierocracy for though. We probably would have accepted both of those without the historical event, and there are dozens of other, simpler justifications.

Also, the fall of the Hierocracy caused one very important feature of Vorin society beyond distrust of visions: it made the Ardents religiously subordinate to the Brightlords.

[name_here]

Yes, but tying it to a historical event that we know of means that they arise from a change and therefore have a higher chance of being the wrong way of doing things.

 

Though actually, come to think of it, given Vorinism's insistence on people following their Callings, it's quite possible both systems were wrong. Ardents are supposed to learn and teach while Brightlords are supposed to lead, and they probaby shouldn't be meddling in the other group's area of responsibility in either direction.

[Kier]

I can't remember but doesn't WoK mention somewhere that alot of written works from the shadow days and even just before the Hierocracy where lost durring the Hierocracy?

 

I.E. the Priests that than at least for some time controlled everything, hid, destroyed, or otherwise obscurred the past? 

 

To me that speaks to the "failing of Vorinism" or that most likely the Hierocracy wasn't a good thing. Or at least I can't come up with a reason as to why Honor would back the Hierocracy ro send Visions to them to help.

 

Although it is important to remember that Honor really doesn't know who is getting his visions and by that, what they will do with them. 

 

Edit:spelling

Edited December 24, 2013 by Kier

[name_here]

I don't think we have any reliable confirmation that those books were destroyed by the Hierocracy instead of being lost when Sunmaker overthrew them.

[Kier]

Good point.

 

I don't think we have any reliable confirmation that those books were destroyed by the Hierocracy instead of being lost when Sunmaker overthrew them.

[TheShogun]

I don't think we have any reliable confirmation that those books were destroyed by the Hierocracy instead of being lost when Sunmaker overthrew them.

Or that they're gone at all. WoK  Spoiler:

Taravangian's ideas about why he needs to kill Dalinar etc must be coming from somewhere, and he does have a very very big library at his disposal, which may or may not be cataloged (is that mentioned?). Either way, it's possible he's taken them out. 

[Shardbearer]

I'm pretty sure there was mention of some kind of catalog, or at least a system for organizing books into subject matter.

[Kier]

Shallan mentions that they have a cataloging system that they developed that almost every library uses now. It probably explains it mostly there... I think its when she goes and reads "Shadows Remembered" while getting a different book.