Nature of the conflict between Odium and Honor

[KevThinker]

I've been rereading the Way of Kings and posting questions as I read regarding mysteries and details I never noticed before, you can read all that on my other thread. 

 

However this is for something entirely different. I want to posit a theory about the nature between the conflict between Odium and Honor. 

 

What if the conflict between Odium and Honor is actually some kind of test or wager? There are several things that lead me to believe this:

 

1) When the Heralds die they are sent to a place that is presumed to be a domain of Odium there enduring torture before being sent back to die again in a conflict. They are sent there even if they win the battle. Wouldn't it make more sense that they would be sent to another place less hellish? In fact the place of chains and hooks is stated to be the reason for why the Heralds no longer have a will to endure the seemingly endless desolation. 

 

2) Dalinar and Kaladin are both tested severely over the course of the book. When Dalinar finally goes on a plateua assault against the Parshendi, he is filled with the Thrill and then with disgust for the violence surrounding him. Kaladin on the other hand is constantly besieged by a melancholy that tells him that he can't save those around him only to push through it and finally succeed in saving his bridge crew. In Mistborn there were subtle hints early on that Ruin was whispering in Vin's mind and influencing her thoughts.

 

3) One of the major themes of the book is living up to commitments and doing the honorable things even though it would be easier and more profitable to not do so. Most of the characters seem to experience periods of darkness when an inner voice causes them to doubt while another inner voice encourages them.

 

4) Several characters and groups are shown voluntary giving up objects of power only to have it turn out better for them in the end. Kaladin gives up his Shard Plate and Blade to take care of his men. Dalinar gives his Blade to purchase the lives of Saddeas' bridge crews and the Radiants give up their weapons and armor by the hundreds in Dalinar's visions. This action of giving up an important piece of something precious is eerily familiar to the actions taking by Preservation against Ruin. 

 

The nearest analogue that I have for this scenario would be the story of Job about how God and Satan agreed beforehand that Job could be tried in all things to prove his commitment and honor to God. However this being a Brandon Sanderson novel, the model has to be tweaked. One possibility is that Odium and Honor struck a deal which has Honor lost or is very close to losing. Honor being the embodiment of living up to his commitments willingly allowed himself to be splintered and killed if he promised to do so.

 

Going back to the Heralds in the prologue, they mention that they hope that having Talanel still bound to the Oathpact will be "enough." Enough for what? Enough to keep Odium from completely winning the deal? Does that mean that if Talanel fails in his duty the Oathpact will be completely shattered and the Last Desolation will begin?

 

Why do I think this is a plausible theory?

 

One of the things that Mistborn showed us was that all Shardholders are equally matched, they are unable to destroy one another. Ruin was only imprisoned by Preservation when he sacrificed his cognitive self to imprison Ruin's mind. The only three ways that I can think for a Shardholder to actually take down another Shardholder: 

 

1) The Shardholder willing allows a part of himself to be weakened or invested thereby making him weaker and easier to take down.

 

2) For a Shardholder to gain an additional Shard essentially doubling his power (However this might cause someone to become non invasive in their actions like Harmony seems to be).

 

3) For two Shardholders to actively pursue and engage a single Shardholder.

 

If this is the case, that means that Odium can only kill Shardholders and splinter Shards with the help of someone else. Brandon has mentioned that there is an as yet unrevealed Shardholder who simply wants to survive, could this possibly be a Shardholder who is helping Odium splinter other Shards in exchange for living just a little while longer? 

 

Or is it that Odium is simply better at using the Shard's own influence against their Holders? Honor could be easily manipulated into splitting himself or making a personal sacrifice. He would always strive to do the right thing and live up to a commitment, even if that commitment meant his own destruction. The same could be said for the other splintered shards on Sel and Nalthis. 

 

[Moogle]

4) Several characters and groups are shown voluntary giving up objects of power only to have it turn out better for them in the end. Kaladin gives up his Shard Plate and Blade to take care of his men. Dalinar gives his Blade to purchase the lives of Saddeas' bridge crews and the Radiants give up their weapons and armor by the hundreds in Dalinar's visions. This action of giving up an important piece of something precious is eerily familiar to the actions taking by Preservation against Ruin.

 

Perhaps a bit of a tangent to your main theory, but:

• Kaladin: Refusing the Shards got him put into slavery and his remaining men murdered.
• Dalinar: Giving up his Shards makes him vulnerable to Szeth, though I admit that it turned out well for him by getting him Kaladin.
• Radiants: Giving up their Shards resulted in less-than-honorable men taking them up and going on murder sprees.

I'm not so sure that sacrifice is necessarily good for you.

 

That said, "act with honor and honor will aid you" means making sacrifices nets you some great things. One is tempted to not even consider them sacrifices if acting honorably gets you an imaginary friend and some sweet superpowers. A consequentialist will act like a deontologist on Roshar, in some regards.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Moogle

[KevThinker]

Something to consider is that the Shardblades themselves may not be parts of honor, or they could be corrupted in some way making giving them up a positive in unintuitive thing to do.

[DocHoliday]

KevThinker, on 20 Dec 2013 - 4:57 PM, said:

Something to consider is that the Shardblades themselves may not be parts of honor, or they could be corrupted in some way making giving them up a positive in unintuitive thing to do.

WoB is that Odium has put more Investiture into Roshar than he wants. It has also been kicked around the forums that perhaps Odium has corrupted Spren, Shardblades, or people with that Investiture.WoR tells us that there are at least 'Odium spren' floating around. It seems perfectly likely Odium tainted the Shardblade as well to me.

There are a lot of theories out there concerning the Oathpact, but until we have another book (and hopefully ALOT of input from Talendel) we don't have enough information to come to anything conclusive.

What we DO have is a very important word. Oathpact. Oath PACT.The definition of which is an agreement or bargain.

Both sides have to offer something for the other party to gain or there can be no agreement. So we have to ask our selves, what a are the priorities of both parties?

Odium wants to be the only Super-power in the Cosmere.

We have very little information about Honor's motives. Obviously he wants to be honorable, but apparently he has a desire to protect the humans from the Tranquiline Halls.

._. o_o O_O HOLY ****

He has the desire to "protect those who cannot protect themselves." Ideal #2

I would like to propose the idea that Honor's agenda included all 41 of the Knights Radiant ideals.

[KevThinker]

He has the desire to "protect those who cannot protect themselves." Ideal #2

I would like to propose the idea that Honor's agenda included all 41 of the Knights Radiant ideals.

I can get behind that theory.

[Aether]

I would like to propose the idea that Honor's agenda included all 41 of the Knights Radiant ideals.

Spoilers for WoR incoming:

Actually, Honour expresses surprise at the Creation of the Knights Radiants; he had nothing to do with their creation. It is also important to note that the Knight Radiants were established relatively late in the Desolations cycle, presumably long after the signing (or whatever) of the Oathpact. The KR Ideals might have piggybacked on some existing notion created by Honour, though.

[dyring]

Just like to point out, that while shards began equal, they are not neceserily equal now. And once a shard is stronger then another, destroying the other likely becomes a possibility.

 

I did make a thread about that long ago, wich was partly confirmed later.

 

www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1208-shard-power-level/

 

So there is the possibility that hnor was invested enough that he simply couldent resist Odium.