Feruchemical Creation

[Oudeis]

A sometimes overlooked aspect of hemalurgy are hemalurgic creations, like the koloss or Inquisitors. Presumably, the extra bits of spiritweb tacked on to your own changes you fundamentally enough in the spiritual realm that changes become evident physically.

 

I only just started suspecting that there are, in fact, allomantic creations. I think that's what savanthood is. You flare one metal constantly, forcing all that power through your own spiritweb, until it achieves the same (presumably less specatular) effect as hemalurgy; your spiritweb changes in a way that lets your powers work differently, while also affecting your physical body (in less obvious ways than growing 13 feet tall with ripped blue skin).

 

Is there such a thing as a feruchemical creation? It feels bland to say it would work exactly like an allomantic one; that someone can simply store a ton and then tap it all at once and change their own spiritweb. Any ideas on other ways it might work?

 

My first thought went to Miles Hundredlives, but I suspect his compounding made him more an allomantic savant of his feruchemical gold, rather than an independent feruchemical creation. If Wayne ever changed physiologically by being a bloodmaker, I'd be far more interested in that.

 

I personally have no ideas. Maybe as a system of balance, a system where there simply isn't enough external power to sandblast your spiritweb, might not have the ability to create new beings. I don't know.

[Kurkistan]

A sometimes overlooked aspect of hemalurgy are hemalurgic creations, like the koloss or Inquisitors. Presumably, the extra bits of spiritweb tacked on to your own changes you fundamentally enough in the spiritual realm that changes become evident physically.

 

I only just started suspecting that there are, in fact, allomantic creations. I think that's what savanthood is. You flare one metal constantly, forcing all that power through your own spiritweb, until it achieves the same (presumably less specatular) effect as hemalurgy; your spiritweb changes in a way that lets your powers work differently, while also affecting your physical body (in less obvious ways than growing 13 feet tall with ripped blue skin).

You're right about Hemalurgy, so far as I recall, though I can't find a source at the moment.

Chaos has a fairly well-regarded theory essentially to this effect about savants.

 

Is there such a thing as a feruchemical creation? It feels bland to say it would work exactly like an allomantic one; that someone can simply store a ton and then tap it all at once and change their own spiritweb. Any ideas on other ways it might work?

 

My first thought went to Miles Hundredlives, but I suspect his compounding made him more an allomantic savant of his feruchemical gold, rather than an independent feruchemical creation. If Wayne ever changed physiologically by being a bloodmaker, I'd be far more interested in that.

 

I personally have no ideas. Maybe as a system of balance, a system where there simply isn't enough external power to sandblast your spiritweb, might not have the ability to create new beings. I don't know.

 

There is a (compelling, I think) theory that Miles is a savant compounder (actually, why am I not espousing that? I've always liked that one. Fixed). So he's actually a "savant" for the metal "allomantically burned feruchemical gold". If that is the case, then it seems that a large influx of power geared towards some Feruchemical attribute can do the trick. Although that power is still fundamentally Preservation-aspected and external to Miles, so it could still be a separate case from what you're proposing...

 

As to your theory, I'm leaning a bit toward "no" because of the whole balance thing. But actually...

 

You know what? I think it could be possible. Who care's if it's "balanced"? Surging a million kilos of mass at one time should have some effect on you, and Nicrosil, Brass, and Bendalloy ferrings can very easily gain access to outside power sources to up the ante.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

Just so we're clear...

 

I think you're saying that you and I both agree that Miles is a savant, technically of a system that includes both allomancy and feruchemy, but that since the method he used to savant is allomantic, if he's any creation he's an allomantic one, not a feruchemical creation.

 

Am I right, or am I off?

[Kurkistan]

Yeeeaaano.
 

It's an open question. The way I see it, there are two options with Miles:

 

1. He's a Feruchemical savant. The Health that he gains from compounding is fundamentally no different from the Health he stored himself, there's just a lot more of it, and it goes through his system the same way.

 

2. He's a Compounding savant. In this case, his compounded Health is doing something different than a large amount of previously-stored Health would do. Either it's unique in coming from "outside" or it's somehow of a different type (since the Investiture is coming from Sazed instead of Miles himself), or perhaps it runs through his body differently.

 

Myself, I think the two biggest options for MIles being a "savant" work are the ones that involve the volume of the power being so very large. In that case, it's either because he's holding so much Health at the same time all the time or because that health is pouring in in massive quantities from the outside.

 

I think it more likely that the mere holding of the Health does the trick, so in this case Miles is actually a "pure" Feruchemical savant who happened to achieve his savanthood by Compounding.

 

Does that confuse the issue enough?

[bartbug]

It ends up being sementics, I think. Kind of like tomatoes, and whether or not they are a fruit or vegetable. It just depends on if you want the classification to be on what the power does or where it comes from. I like compounding savant, though.

[Kurkistan]

It matters whether it's the energy entering Miles that does the deed versus whether it's the energy simply being there. It depends how you interpret it when Brandon talked about Vin when she took in the mists: Was it the energy going through her that did the damage, or just it being there? I'm inclined to interpret it the second way.

 

EDIT: To clarify why it matters before you think I'm too crazy, the first option argues somewhat against the possibility of Feruchemical savants/creations.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

I think I'm closer to being on the same page as you.

 

All of your evidence is compelling... I have two concerns remaining, and they are gut-feeling ones, rather than factual ones. Basically, I'm saying that you're likely right, but if you are I'm dissatisfied with the system, as a reader.

 

Concern the first, is there no way, then, to become a feruchemical savant without using allomancy? A very few "traits" can draw power from outside the body; it seems unlikely that someone could become a feruchemical gold savant on their own, for example. A brass savant would... possibly be very, very interesting and I'm sure I wouldn't want to see a bendalloy savant. Though I suppose, something like copper savanthood is allomantically not terribly interesting, if it's even more than a technicality.

 

Concern the second, it feels too much like it's just another flavor of allomantic creation. Hemalurgic and Allomantic creations are so drastically different; it feels like a "second verse, same as the first" cop-out to say, "Yeah, you know feruchemy? It's basically just allomancy again."

 

Again, neither of those are factual reasons why this should not be the case. They are simply my reaction that, if they are the case, it is a terrible case.

[Kurkistan]

I do like sharing pages.

 

Note: I feel that the more likely cause of "savanthood" is holding large amounts of power, not necessarily just channeling it from the outside. I've presented both options because either is possible, but I find the first more likely.

 

Given, that, onto the concerns:

 

As to Concern the First: If holding power is all you need, you might be able to get away with normal Feruchemy, even for the non-cheating metals. So maybe a Wax that tried his hardest to surge together obscene amounts of weight as often as possible could get the job done. So you could become a Feruchemical savant without the need for compounding.

 

As to Concern the Second: Eh. They're all "just" "pour on enough Investiture and stuff starts to break", to an extent—though Hemalurgy is a bit more focused/intentional, I suppose.

[Swimmingly]

Oh god, a bendalloy savant...

[Pechvarry]

No evidence, but I feel like that whole "capacity to hold power thing" is part of what you store away, in regards to that certain power. In other words, no amount of tapped weight can affect your spiritweb, if all the energy came from you. Of course, Compounding breaks that.... by a lot.

[name_here]

Feruchemy by default gives a 1:1 ratio of stored to tapped power and is explicitly end-neutral, so it seems unlikely it also causes changes. Hemalurgy is end-negative, but there's a bunch of unaccounted-for stuff that could handle the changes. Specifically, in the case of the constructs they seem to lose attributes of the original in the process. Obviously, Koloss lose intelligence and self-control, but Inquisitors tire out easily. I originally put that down to expending a lot of energy maintaining their blatantly non-viable physical state and charging Feruchemical gold to compensate for damage from moving around, but the scene where Penrod gets spiked and some later ones imply that all the spikes inherently stabilize the physical damage resulting from their presence, so there may be another cause.

 

However, the extra lost when altering the ratio to overtap might potentially partially go to spiritweb alterations, and it certainly could be a side effect of compounding.

[Satsuoni]

There is a world of difference in the very mechanism of hemalurgy, though. It is the only Metallic Art that permanently attaches a (somewhat) functional piece of other person's spiritweb to your own, by, using WoB,"stapling" it into place. That would have a rough biological equivalent in ripping DNA mid-gene and inserting a piece of other's DNA in there (though Hemalurgy is somewhat less deadly) - if you are lucky, you'll be able to express new genes, but they would mess with your own, and you may lose a gene or two of your own. On the plus side, it is incredibly flexible - one could, in theory, get almost any physical phenotype.

Allomancy Savanthood is closer to addiction - your body and spirit change to work more efficiently in the presence of external Investiture, but it becomes less efficient without it, and also damages your body.

Feruchemy, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have an equivalent, except at low levels. I guess you could induce the changes in your body if you, for example, store your attribute for half your lifespan and then constantly use it. Or if you oscillate: store for 0.1sec, tap for 0.1 sec as much as you can of the attribute. Do it habitually, and see what happens to your body...

[Oudeis]

 

 

Note: I feel that the more likely cause of "savanthood" is holding large amounts of power, not necessarily just channeling it from the outside. I've presented both options because either is possible, but I find the first more likely.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

Chapter 16 epigraph, Harmony expressly states that it's the influx of power, not the holding of power, that makes an allomantic savant. Presumably like blasting with a power washer, rather than just holding like a pool of water.

 

Still, it's a rather off-hand comment. It's still possible that Harmony was being inexact.

[Edgedancer]

I thought on the topic of feruchemical savanthood just a while ago. What I came up with was rather different from the other kinds of savants we have seen so far.

 

The causing of the savanthood in my theory woud be the storing of power instead of the amount of investure one has.

Lacking the atribute, or at the least having it diminished, woud work like training with a weighted suite.

The body woud train itself to reach an normal state and the feruchemist coud permanantly store a certain amount of investure giving him great reserves for tapping as well as an "normal" state that is well over average.

 

On the other side of things it woud also leave the Feruchemist wiht an weakend body and mind most of the time.

 

Granted there are two problems with this theory.

1) Not every atrbute can be trained.

2) I`m not certain if there is any WoB on the topic of "feruchemical training."

[Swimmingly]

like constantly storing pewter while hitting the gym, so your "normal" state is a musclebound hulk? The problem with that is that it would take exactly as much effort as if you had done it the regular way, possibly more, as you wouldn't be gaining any new strength to lift things with - however, just training yourself to function normally while in a diminished state could mean you could go about your life quite a bit below baseline, and I suppose, in a real pinch, you could let yourself comeback to your original state.

[entropicscholar]

just 2 cents, without reading the full thread:

 

since ferrochemy is end-neutral, wouldn't it automatically reverse any permenent changes it made?

I mean, isn't that why hemalurgic constructs work? because you're making "permenent" additions AND subtractions to the spiritweb?

 

ferrochemy, by its nature seems contrary to that.

I may be wrong though.

 

 

(new hemelurgic constructs, based on adding ferrochemic abilities/effects is another question, of course.)

[Oudeis]

just 2 cents, without reading the full thread:

since ferrochemy is end-neutral, wouldn't it automatically reverse any permenent changes it made?

I mean, isn't that why hemalurgic constructs work? because you're making "permenent" additions AND subtractions to the spiritweb?

ferrochemy, by its nature seems contrary to that.

I may be wrong though.

(new hemelurgic constructs, based on adding ferrochemic abilities/effects is another question, of course.)

Interesting... allomancy creates beings by applying external power to shape a single spiritweb. Hemalurgy creates them by taking several spiritwebs and forging them into one thing, less than the sum of its parts.

With feruchemy... perhaps there is a means by which traits could be swapped? Like lego bricks? Where two feruchemists have no more or fewer traits than they began with, simply different ones? Like, and this is pure conjecture at this point... what if there were a way for two feruchemists to touch, and swap some essential trait? Like one would give up his sight, permanently doubling the other's sight while permanently blinding himself, yet gain double-smell, while his partner will now never smell again?

[Swimmingly]

Or lose all hearing in one ear?