Are shards lawful stupid?

[Daishi5]

The easiest way to ask this question is to pose a hypothetical question:  Suppose that Odium has found something in the Cosmere that is capable of and actively trying to kill him.  Odium is not able to defend himself against it, but with the help of Honor and Cultivation, the three of them could fight off whatever the threat is. However, Honor knows Odium is a bad guy who is not trustworthy.  

 

If Odium came to Honor in desperate need of help in order to survive, would Honor need to help him because part of being honorable is "protecting those who can't protect themselves?"  Or in other words, does Honor have to always be honorable, even when doing so is obviously a stupid thing to do?

 

If Honor finds himself very strongly compelled to do something like this even though he knows Odium is not very trustworthy, it might be one reason that they would both enter into the pact.  Honor may find himself compelled to help Odium, but he could try to bind Odium with the pact to protect himself. 

 

And of course, if Odium joined the Oathpact for his own protection, his own need to be a hateful bastard might have driven him to kill Honor when he had the chance even though he is not safe yet.  

 

[Arook]

It's hard to say. Is saving someone you know is going to cause destruction an honorable act. 

 

Hate how ever is self serving he does not always need to destroy, as say Ruin who's only goal was destruction. Even then he was able to work with preservation to create so he could in turn destroy more. So joining in a pact to protect himself he could focus his hate at that enemy not his allies.

[name_here]

Shards must follow their Intent under all circumstances, yes. They have, however, shown the capacity to be intelligent about it and to arrange for others to work against their Intent. So I could easily see Honor being forced to protect Odium but forcing him to agree to terms in exchange or rigging up a mechanism where if Odium betrayed him someone else would kill him. Odium probably wouldn't betray Honor until he felt safe, but it's pretty plausible he'd have Honor overextend himself and backstab Honor at the very instant their mutual foe was defeated. Then again, Ruin set up a lengthy ploy and sat in the Well of Ascension for thousands of years, but once he was out he got sloppy and impatient, so it's possible that the more aggressive Shards are pretty short-sighted, unless Ati's original personality was still intact enough to deliberately mess up his own plans. So Odium might plan to do that and get over-eager and make his move too soon.

[Swimmingly]

Unless the Shard's Intents do not seem to apply to themselves: Ruin didn't want to destroy himself. Preservation , ironically, did not preserve himself. Cultivation does not cultivate herself, Odium does not hate himself, and, possibly, Honor did not honor his own agreements.

[Oudeis]

I don't think Intents are absolute. I think they become overriding drives, but even the Shards of Mr. Sanderson's worlds aren't one-dimensional, boring beings. Honor feels compelled in all things to act honorably, presumably therefore if he gives his word he has to keep it. We have no way to confirm that he must protect every weak person. One order of Radiants, the Windrunners, swore an ideal to "protect those who cannot protect themselves," but that doesn't mean it's Tanavast's own belief. Kaladin is "honorable" enough to attract an honorspren and he kills any number of people. If a man is your stated foe, if you have seen that he has before and will again kill others, I don't think Honor would be forced like an automaton to protect him no matter what; wouldn't that mean the opposite of protecting all the people Odium would then go on to kill? Honor allows for justice, vengeance, and a bunch of other words that all involve a lot of killing.

[Scriptorian]

Unless the Shard's Intents do not seem to apply to themselves: Ruin didn't want to destroy himself. Preservation , ironically, did not preserve himself. Cultivation does not cultivate herself, Odium does not hate himself, and, possibly, Honor did not honor his own agreements.

I think your logic is inconsistent. What would follow is that Honor does not honor himself (so he's humble...or something).

 

I think this is a better representation of Shardic intents: Ruin wants to destroy other things/people. Preservation wants to preserve other things/people. Cultivation cultivates other things/people. Odium hates other /people, while Honor is honorable towards other things/people.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Ookla the Serendipitous

[Windrunner]

Brandon's confirmed that all Shards are driven to follow their intents externally, it doesn't apply to themselves. So Cultivation doesn't try to cultivate herself, Preservation doesn't try to preserve himself (obviously) and etc.

[Aether]

That isn't to say that the Shardholders do not have such urges aimed at themselves, but that such things would not come from or be overridden by the Shard's intent.