Splinters are weird, yo

[ROSHtafARian]

I thought long and hard about what to title this topic, but really, this about sums it up.  Those things are weird, dudes.

 

It occurred to me recently how little we know about how Splinters work, compared to Shards, and so I started this topic as a place to ask the relevant questions.  For instance, we know Shards have a Spiritual, Cognitive and Physical aspect, and their Cognitive Aspect comes from the Shardholder, largely.  Splinters however, don't seem to bleed across all three Realms in similar fashion.  The Divine Breaths that Endowment gifts to the Returned don't have a Physical aspect, for instance, unless I'm missing something.

 

However, Splinters do all seem to have a Cognitive aspect, or at least be paired with one.  The Divine Breaths are paired with the consciousness of those they Return.  Spren (at least the ones that are Splintered) seem to develop their own Cognitive Aspect via a bond with a human.  Seons have a Cognitive Aspect (and of course, its the Aons at the heart of the Seons that are the actual Splinter) - but where the frack does their Cognition come from?

 

Likewise, do all Splinters share in the Intent of the Shard they're Splintered from, or do they have their own Intent, that's a derivative of said parent Shard?  We've speculated along these lines when it comes to Spren.....honorspren could comprise the largest Splinters of Honor, perhaps, while Truthspren could be another mini-Intent, and so on.  Of particular interest to me is Nightblood.  I don't believe its ever conclusively been stated whether he can be considered a Splinter or not, though perhaps I missed something, please correct me if I'm wrong.  An argument can be made both for an against it.  But Nightblood certainly can be said to have his own Intent ('Destroy Evil'), and even more significantly, it influences its bearer in a way similar to how Shards influence their holders over time.  Without the protection of its sheath, its likely that over a long enough period of time Nightblood could warp its wielder's personality to match its 'Intent.'  What makes this interesting to me is the idea that if Splinters DO have their own Intent, or a version of such, would they over time influence the Cognitive Aspect that's bound to them?  For instance, over a sufficient period, would Syl make Kaladin 'more like Honor'?  If the Divine Breaths have their own mini-Intents, do they over time change the personality of a Returned?  We've seen suggestions of the older Returned changing in their attitudes or views, or at least seen them contrasted as different and having different priorities to the younger Returned.  Is this simply a product of age, or are they subtly changing to reflect different aspects of Endowment's personality?

 

I have lots of questions, but no answers, fellow 17th Sharders.  What say you?

[Isomere]

I'd like to explore some thoughts about investiture merged with the soul compared to investiture in a symbiotic relationship. I'm not really sure if this distinction exists, but just run with it for a bit and see how it meshes with splinters. Now, we don't really know what a Soul is in the cosmere, but it seems clear that part of the soul can be made up of Investiture from a Shard. The "bits" of Ruin/Preservation on Scadrial, the breath on Nalthis, etc. These bits of investiture seem to enhance and improve the person they are attached to, making them more aware, more resistant to disease, more spiritually connected. It also seems likely that investiture somehow is able to expand the mind, or make things more intelligent. One example is how Sazed was able to just dump all the info from his metalminds into his own brain after he Ascended. I'm not sure this is a hard and fast rule; does a drab have a lower IQ than he had before giving away the breath? <<Shrug>> maby. But regardless I think that something about investiture helps nurture and expand intelligence and sentience. 

 

On the other hand, we have symbiots. The investiture seems completely latent when it is not linked to a living intelligence. But create a symbiotic bond and you get a sentient Spren or Seon. How does that happen? Well based on the stuff Syl talks about, the bond let's the two share bits of each other. The spren can develop intelligence and sentience because the human has sentience. The human can start using magic because the Spren has investiture that allows access to the Powers of Creation. So each partner in the bond gains access to attributes of the other. It seems with splinters the extra cognitive power of investiture is used to create a new "borrowed" sentience rather than to enhance just one mind, but I think the intellect of the Sliver is still coming from the human. 

 

I think it's interesting that people "have" a splinter but "become" a shard. For example, there is a clear separation between Syl and Kaladin, but there is no separation at all between Sazed and Harmony. So I theorize that Shards actually merge with the soul of the person that picks them up, while Splinters just form a symbiotic relationship. The mind of the shardholder is dramatically expanded, while the bearer of a splinter gets a lifelong friend with its own cognitive powers. 

 

I'll let someone else delve into the Intent part of your thread.

[ROSHtafARian]

Interesting points Isomere, but as to your last point, how then would you explain the Divine Breaths and the Returned?  There's no separate sentience between the Breaths and the Returned, its one mind.  They seem to be an example of a Splinter merged with a soul much in the same way as you describe the Shard merging with the Shardholder.  

[Kurkistan]

Interesting thread, and worth discussing.
 
Just to throw in a tidbit, we know for sure that Splinters are primarily a blend of Spiritual and Cognitive, with little Physical:
 
Source

NewbSombrero: Are Splinters primarily Spiritual?
 
Brandon: Less physical. More a blend of the other two.

 
This indicates that Splinters do not rely upon symbionts to have Cogntive aspects (much like Shards still likely have some rather vaguely defined, but still present Cognitive aspect ala their Intent even without a Holder). Syl (who we don't know is a Splinter), specifically, gained "a stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond." I would hazard that the same hold for Aons and their masters.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[ROSHtafARian]

Hmm, well if all Splinters do have a degree of innate cognition, most likely fragments of the parent Shard's Cognitive Aspect, that would explain Syl's comment that 'all spren are essentially the same entity', or however she phrased it.  Each Splinter's 'personality' then would be a piece of the same mind, essentially, though that mind seemingly is so fragmented it might as well be different personalities.

 

However, its still interesting that there's such a disparity in terms of Cognitive Aspect between Splinters like spren or Seons (again, just using Seons as shorthand for the true nature of those Splinters) and Splinters like the Divine Breaths, which show no innate Cognitive aspect of their own.  Perhaps the difference is because Divine Breaths are so far the only example we have of Splinters of a living, intact Shard?  One that retains its full Cognitive aspect unfragmented?

 

If Splinters of a living Shard demonstrate no innate Cognition because their parent Shard's mind is intact, (perhaps those Splinters are predominantly Spiritual), that could explain a lot of distinctions.  It could even explain distinctions between spren, as we know some spren are of Honor and some are of Cultivation, and Cultivation is still alive.  Perhaps Splinters of Honor are spren with a piece of Honor's Cognitive aspect, that is enhanced by the symbiotic bond with a human, while Splinters of Cultivation are seemingly mindless spren like those that are found in fabrials?

[Kurkistan]

Hmm, well if all Splinters do have a degree of innate cognition, most likely fragments of the parent Shard's Cognitive Aspect, that would explain Syl's comment that 'all spren are essentially the same entity', or however she phrased it.  Each Splinter's 'personality' then would be a piece of the same mind, essentially, though that mind seemingly is so fragmented it might as well be different personalities.

 

Actually, I myself have interpreted that 'all spren are essentially the same entity" comment to be a reference to all Spren of the same type accessing the same Forms, or perhaps even all Spren being similar in all regards except what Forms they access. Syl seems to be talking more in the present tense with all spren right now being the same entity, not just derived from a singular source, but not diverse.

 

However, its still interesting that there's such a disparity in terms of Cognitive Aspect between Splinters like spren or Seons (again, just using Seons as shorthand for the true nature of those Splinters) and Splinters like the Divine Breaths, which show no innate Cognitive aspect of their own.  Perhaps the difference is because Divine Breaths are so far the only example we have of Splinters of a living, intact Shard?  One that retains its full Cognitive aspect unfragmented?

 

I don't think we need necessarily say Cognitive aspect == independent mind. As for Divine Breath, the Cognitive Aspect may be wrapped up in their prophetic abilities, or maintaining the beauty standards of Returned, or perhaps just lying in wait to enable divine healing when Returned give up their Breath. Brandon didn't give a caveat for Divine Breath, so presumably they also have Cognitive parts. Especially considering that Divine Breath and Aons are the only Splinters we absolutely know about.

 

If Splinters of a living Shard demonstrate no innate Cognition because their parent Shard's mind is intact, (perhaps those Splinters are predominantly Spiritual), that could explain a lot of distinctions.  It could even explain distinctions between spren, as we know some spren are of Honor and some are of Cultivation, and Cultivation is still alive.  Perhaps Splinters of Honor are spren with a piece of Honor's Cognitive aspect, that is enhanced by the symbiotic bond with a human, while Splinters of Cultivation are seemingly mindless spren like those that are found in fabrials?

 

Perhaps.

[Isomere]

@ ROSH: A couple possible explanations. 

1. Splinters can merge completely with a soul OR form a symbiotic bond. I like this idea. Perhaps you can also access a Shard via symbiotic bond? Very interesting possibilities down this road. 
2. The original Soul of the dead guy isn't actually in the body of the Returned. This would help explain why they lose their memories, and is consistent with Splinters having separate sentience from their bonded human. I have heard many theories trying to prove that the original soul returns, but I can see ways around all the supposed "proofs". It is possible that only the "Breath" portion of the soul returns, reinforced with a full Splinter of investiture. The rest of the soul (including the intellect) could be chilling out in the cognitive realm and direct things from there. Perhaps the Returned dreams are a way for the dead soul to communicate with the physical realm while maintaining access to all the visions of the future and such that Scoot talks about people seeing after death. 

 

@ Kurk: A cognitive aspect may not be the same thing as sentience or intellect. Yes, all things seem to "think" in the cognitive realm, but why are they unable to do so in the physical realm?  I believe there is something "else" inside the soul that allows sentience. I call this something else an "intelligence", and it seems Shardic Investiture lacks this extra something because it just doesn't function without a bonded partner. 

[Kurkistan]

I find your theory of Returned as shells to be somewhat unlikely. Lightsong has all of his old skills and his old personality, it seems. I am unsure how you would model a "mission control"-style setup in such a way as to both account for this strong interaction and yet keep the soul/mind separate from the body in any meaningful sense.

 

I agree with your division between having Cognitive aspects and being intelligent/self-aware. Shallan's goblet certainly wasn't winning any math competitions. However, I don't think we need some kind of "bonded partner" for intelligence, at least not all the time. Nightblood seemed to get along just fine with a thousand Breaths, a Command, and a sword. So far as I can tell, his "connection" to Vasher was not of a symbiotic variety, but simply accidental (in the sense of being tangential to his intelligence).

Edited June 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[ROSHtafARian]

@Isomere

 

As to your second point, Lightsong does eventually remember his previous life...his dream about the ship is a memory, so whether or not its the original soul, the Splinter definitely seems to be piggybacking off the Returned's pre-death consciousness.

 

As to your first point, that's something I've thought about as well, especially in conjunction with what I mentioned about Nightblood and his sheath in my first post.  The Shard/Shardholder bond doesn't seem to work as a symbiosis in the same way a human/spren or human/Seon bond does, but I do wonder if perhaps one or two Shards found a way around the personality warping properties of a Shard.  Sazed's mind is relatively protected against significant alterations due to Ruin and Preservation's Intents keeping each other in check in that regard, and we know he's a special case, obviously.  But we also know Shards have been known to manipulate their own cognitive aspects in certain deliberate ways, such as when Preservation imprisoned Ruin.

 

So what if one or two Shards, perhaps being aware of how their Intent was warping their original personality or having a future vision of themselves via Shardic foresight....what if one or two found a way to wall off or protect their original personas from their Intent-influenced personas?  For instance, is it at all feasible that one might have split off a large Splinter containing a large, intact portion of their Cognitive mind, back before their Intent had much time to influence it?  And millennia later, that Shardholder is as Intent-influenced as any other Shard, BUT there's a Splinter containing a copy of their original personality running around manipulating events at the same time?

[Kurkistan]

I doubt Splinter-stasis would work for a Shard, as that Splinter would itself be composed of the Shard's (Intent-laden) power, and so would also warp its holder (btw, I think Splinter's almost certainly have Intents, so I'm a bit biased here).

[ROSHtafARian]

I doubt Splinter-stasis would work for a Shard, as that Splinter would itself be composed of the Shard's (Intent-laden) power, and so would also warp its holder (btw, I think Splinter's almost certainly have Intents, so I'm a bit biased here).

 

Hmm, true.  I actually agree about Splinters having Intents as well.  However, there could still be a workaround, depending on a couple factors.  One being how much control a Shard has when creating a Splinter....ie, perhaps the Shard could chisel off a Splinter with an Intent close enough to its original personality that personality alteration would be minimal (like the difference between Odium altering the already nasty Rayse's personality versus Ruin altering the kind and decent Ati).  Alternatively, it would depend on whether all Splinters are an equal mix of Cognitive and Spiritual, and where Intent falls in that spectrum.  I personally believe that a Shard's Intent largely rests in its Spiritual aspect, and so if true, and a Shard could split off a Splinter that was predominantly Cognitive (to contain most of its personality) and much less Spiritual, thus minimizing the presence of its Intent....then perhaps it could work.

 

And again, that's just one possibility for protecting the Shardholder's original personality.  The important part here isn't the HOW the Shardholder accomplishes it, as I don't believe we know enough about Realmatics and Splinters yet to speculate too much there, but rather whether there's some way to hang on to that original personality at all.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I doubt Splinter-stasis would work for a Shard, as that Splinter would itself be composed of the Shard's (Intent-laden) power, and so would also warp its holder (btw, I think Splinter's almost certainly have Intents, so I'm a bit biased here).

You see, I can avoid bias entirely on this subject, by just posting a quote and leaving.

http://www.17thshard.com/news/events/report-signing-with-brandon-and-peter-orullian-r52

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

[Kurkistan]

I really do hate it when all my careful hedging is rendered moot by a fact I probably should have known already. 

 

 

P.S. Thanks, btw

Edited June 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Isomere]

I find your theory of Returned as shells to be somewhat unlikely. Lightsong has all of his old skills and his old personality, it seems. I am unsure how you would model a "mission control"-style setup in such a way as to both account for this strong interaction and yet keep the soul/mind separate from the body in any meaningful sense.

I am perfectly content if the soul does get Returned. In fact, I think that's what I would place my money on if I had to wager right now. However, there is plausible evidence that the original soul is not needed. Based on Clod, a foreign breath and the physical body is enough to grant the skills and attributes of the original owner and should theoretically be able to access memories stored in the brain. 

 

I agree with your division between having Cognitive aspects and being intelligent/self-aware. Shallan's goblet certainly wasn't winning any math competitions. However, I don't think we need some kind of "bonded partner" for intelligence, at least not all the time. Nightblood seemed to get along just fine with a thousand Breaths, a Command, and a sword. So far as I can tell, his "connection" to Vasher was not of a symbiotic variety, but simply accidental (in the sense of being tangential to his intelligence).

We really don't have much information about Nightblood. If it is indeed a splinter, it's the only man-made one we know of. Personally I think it still bears a symbiotic connection to it's creator, and there are several hints of that in text. Perhaps she invested more than just breath into the sword...

[Kurkistan]

I am perfectly content if the soul does get Returned. In fact, I think that's what I would place my money on if I had to wager right now. However, there is plausible evidence that the original soul is not needed. Based on Clod, a foreign breath and the physical body is enough to grant the skills and attributes of the original owner and should theoretically be able to access memories stored in the brain. 

 

I've just now manfully resisted linking to argumentation that Lifeless have their Cognitive aspects revived. Consider yourself fortunate. 

 

We really don't have much information about Nightblood. If it is indeed a splinter, it's the only man-made one we know of. Personally I think it still bears a symbiotic connection to it's creator, and there are several hints of that in text. Perhaps she invested more than just breath into the sword...

 

Whether or not Nightblood is a Splinter is besides the point. As for the connection, his creator lived after his creation and then was killed by Vasher, which implies rather strongly that she wasn't "responsible" for him.

 

Also, the sequel is (to the best of my memory, though I'm sure Phantom will tell us within a few minutes if I'm wrong) focused on the wide creation of Nightblood-class swords, presumably created by one or a few people, so any even mildly draining or exclusive bond seems unlikely.

[Windrunner]

I personally don't think it's focused on it entirely. What we know basically is that Vasher and Vivenna will be dealing with Yesteel, who has been confirmed to have the knowledge of how to create Type IV entities. So, it will certainly be a part of the story, but I wouldn't say the focus.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Not focused per se, but it'd be a plot element. I personally find the 'Returned babymill' theory somewhat plausible.

Incidentally, there's a 'threshold' for sliverhood. I have to wonder if it's the same as the amount sufficient to be a splinter. Nightblood is about a thousand Breaths, and by the only scale we have to measure a Divine Breath is two thousand, so it's the same neighborhood. I'm not sure if handing the power over to Nightblood counts as 'giving it up' or not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity