Why did Odium go to Sel?

[ROSHtafARian]

What I mean is, why Sel, specifically?

 

We know that he's one of the three Shards who have been present on Roshar.  That doesn't mean its 'his' shardworld in the sense that Sel was Aona and Skai's or Scadrial was Leras and Ati's, but he clearly has enough of a history on Roshar that his direct conflict with Honor at least makes perfect sense.  And yes, we know that he hates everything, and would likely love to see every Shard other than his own splintered and rendered powerless against him.  But so far, we only have knowledge of him traveling to one other Shardworld and in the process killing its Shardholders and splintering their Shards.

 

So why Sel?

 

We've spent a lot of time discussing how Odium Splintered Aona and Skai and what exactly that means, but what I want to know is was there a reason he went after them, specifically?  Why not Nalthis, or Scadrial?  Were Aona and Skai more of a threat to him, somehow?  Devotion is about as far from Odium's Intent as it gets, so was she his real target, and he just figured might as well take out Skai while I'm here?  Was Odium aware of how Preservation had imprisoned Ruin, and diminished himself in the process, so figured they were already less of a threat to him?  Nalthis only has one Shard to our knowledge, why not take out him/her before targetting a world with two Shards?

 

Obviously we don't have a ton to go on yet as far as Odium's specific motivations go, but I just felt this was a question we should be asking.  Out of the nine other Shardworlds besides Roshar, was there a reason Odium went to Sel first?

Of course, that begs the followup questions:  DID Odium go to Sel first?  Or has he already been to other as yet unnamed Shardworlds and taken out their Shards too?  Silence Divine's planet is in the same solar system as Roshar, did he stop over there on his way to Sel and Splinter its Shard(s)?

 

[Iredomi]

" "Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet." Signing report from Kogiopsis. http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' seventh one down. "

 

That aside I think he might have gone to Sel because the two shards there were probably (and this is a big probably) working together. We know Odium doesn't like more than one shard working with another, as Brandon as said that Odium didn't want what happened with Ruin and Preservation combining to happen at all. And that Cultivation and Honor were lovers so they probably worked together. So I'm pretty certain that he wants to pick off those that present a united front.

 

But what he did on Sel was probably just a part of a bigger thing and we just haven't seen that yet.

So the why for me is that Odium wants to destroy Shards and there were two on Sel who were united and he couldn't have that so bam! Dead. 

 

But yeah I'm tired so I don't know how helpful this answer is =)

[Isomere]

I suspect odium has been to both Honor and Cultivation's homeworlds and made them uninhabitable. He likely did the same with Endowment. I think Sel was a threat to him because there were two shards working together in relative peace. They may have even merged.

[Windrunner]

I don't think it's possible for two Shards being held by different people to merge. If they could have, why didn't Ruin and Preservation merge when they worked together to build Scadrial? It also could have forestalled Ati's descent from a kind and generous man into a monster. I think if it had been possible, they would have done it. From a practical standpoint, it doesn't really make sense to me either. How could two people hold a Shard at the same time? Who would it listen to? Would they have to always be in agreement? The Letter makes it perfectly clear that Skai and Aona were both alive when Odium came to Sel, so I personally doubt that Devotion and Dominion had been conjoined at that point, although it wouldn't surprise me if the two Shards have now fused into the Dor.

[Chromium Compounder]

I like the theory that Odium doesn't like other shards working together.  That does make them a bigger threat to him, but I think he would have wanted to go after Devotion anyway.  I think Devotion is the closest thing to an opposite Odium has, so destroying Devotion would have been his top priority.  Aona and Skai were likely working together to some degree, and since he was already on Sel he figured he should take Dominion out as well.

 

" "Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet." Signing report from Kogiopsis. http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' seventh one down. "

 

I hadn't heard that quote.  I wonder what kind of effect he had on Scadrial, and at what point he was there?

[Isomere]

You may be right Windrunner. I don't yet see a rule preventing two shards from merging if both of their holders desire it, but one could easily be introduced into the books. We are dealing with Shards composed mostly of pure energy, and energy can be mixed around in various ways that I think allows for some interesting connections between two holders.

Taking a step back, we don't really know what was required for Ruin and Preservation to work together. It could be simply working in tandem like Saidin and Saidar, but even in that analogy the powers were usually wielded inside of a linked circle. I also don't see a rule that prevents shards from linking and then separating again afterward.

Getting back to the thread topic, I was mostly just theorizing that Odium targets the biggest threats first, and dominion and devotion were working together far too well for his liking.

[Chromium Compounder]

I was mostly just theorizing that Odium targets the biggest threats first, and dominion and devotion were working together far too well for his liking.

Agreed

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Man I wish I could trust the exact phrasing on that all other planets...

[Windrunner]

I agree Phantom. I think there's a high likelihood that Brandon meant several other planets and not all other planets.

[Iredomi]

Yeah I agree with Windrunner. I'm pretty sure Odium would have had an effect on most Shardworlds but I'm doubtful he would have been to them all yet. 

 

I think for shards to merge they have to have a single mind behind them. I feel like it's not really something that can be decided and it needs time. They might be able to make a bond of some kind but short of one entity controlling both I don't think that it would work. But anything can happen at this stage I guess. 

[Isomere]

The quote doesn't say he has visited all of the planets. Perhaps subtle influence in a single key decision would qualify for Odium being Active. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Maybe if if were 'had an effect on' yeah. I don't really buy 'all other' just. Because of all the planets with no shardic influence, and even 'all shardworlds' has issues. Odium does not strike me as a guy who would stop kicking a cripple, and scandriel would be the perfect place to splinter a couple shards with no risk.

[ROSHtafARian]

Quick question:  What's the basis for people assuming Skai and Aona were working well together?  All references to Skai make it seem like he wasn't the nicest guy, and the Skaze are referred to as evil Seons, so he doesn't seem to be the most likely person for Aona to get along with.  Is the shared nature of the Dor what people are using to assume there was cooperation between the two Shards, or is there a quote somewhere about the two of them I'm missing?

[Isomere]

Well, it's all kinda conjecture actually. We know all the different types of magic from Sel use the same base power called the Dor. We know all the magic systems seem to be cultural or locational. We also know that both of the Shards were splintered and the holders killed when odium came to visit.

 

There is also this quote. Someone asked why Scadrial has three magic systems and Sel has so many different types of magic. 

 

3) Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel.   Source

 

So for two shards to be on the same planet and only have one type of magic created they would likely have had to merge. 

[Windrunner]

I agree that they've probably merged, but I think it's more likely to have happened post-Splintering. We know the magic changed after the Shards were Splintered, so this is perhaps part of it.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

So for two shards to be on the same planet and only have one type of magic created they would likely have had to merge.

Not necessarily.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/c9fs0ea?context=3

Shadowsaber223:

Hey Brandon! Thanks for always being so cool like this and on my birthday no less! So, my questions. (Contains Miscellaneous SPOILERS)

1) If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal?

1a) If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it?

1b) Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

Brandon:

1) The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

No need for the shards to merge at all. They could just have done the right things to the planet's inhabitants to grant a joint system, but not the things to give individual systems.

And since it's possible for systems to be set up pre-shattering and then linger without being directly powered by a shard, and Sazed ascending and unifying the shards didn't collapse the powers into hemuchemistborns... I don't really see them being essentially all the same magic really as evidence for or against shards having merged at any particular point.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Isomere]

Seem unlikely that two shards occupying the same planet would create one system of magic unless they were working extremely closely with each other. Additionally, the Goddess of Love and the God of Dominion forming a romantic coupling just seems too appropriate to not play around with it. We know Cultivation did it with Honor after all. 

 

 

STORMATLAS

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=985/#5

Edited May 26, 2013 by Isomere

[Senor Feesh]

Seem unlikely that two shards occupying the same planet would create one system of magic unless they were working extremely closely with each other. Additionally, the Goddess of Love and the God of Dominion forming a romantic coupling just seems too appropriate to not play around with it. We know Cultivation did it with Honor after all. 

 

Devotion and Love are not necessarily synonymous. Please let's not assume too much.

 

Although Devotion and Dominion in a romantic involvement does make me think of S&M

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Seem unlikely that two shards occupying the same planet would create one system of magic unless they were working extremely closely with each other.

Why? The number of magic systems isn't just created by using 'every combination of shards', and the planet seems to have a pretty firm say in how things work, as well. Could just as easily be that location-based magic inherently has a bunch of regional changes, but by default stays relatively homogenous overall, regardless of the shards involve.

[Isomere]

A human using one form of investiture on a planet works in a certain way due to the interactions of the planet, the human's Identity/genetics/intellect, the physical focus, and the Shard's Intent. Using a different investiture with a different Intent and having it produce the exact same magic system would be a coincidence tantamount to a sperm whale randomly appearing in the sky above BYU and destroying the only copy of Dragonsteel in print. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

A human using one form of investiture on a planet works in a certain way due to the interactions of the planet, the human's Identity/genetics/intellect, the physical focus, and the Shard's Intent. Using a different investiture with a different Intent and having it produce the exact same magic system would be a coincidence tantamount to a sperm whale randomly appearing in the sky above BYU and destroying the only copy of Dragonsteel in print.

Not really. Lightweaving is 'close enough', so it ends up working identically.

[Senor Feesh]

Yeah, I'm currently re-thinking my viewpoint on how Shardic magic works, and I'm thinking that the planet has a much bigger part in it than I recently thought. I'm currently thinking of the best way to word a question for the Ultimate Q&A thread, to optimise info gained vs. risk of RAFO.

[Windrunner]

I tend to think that the Shardworld itself is what determines the physical aspect, and maybe part of the focus, rather than separating it into to different factors, like Isomere has done.

[Isomere]

I tend to think that the Shardworld itself is what determines the physical aspect, and maybe part of the focus.

I totally agree, but it hasn't yet been confirmed.

 

Physical Focus on Sel has a pattern of creating Maps of the person's homeland. I got a bit confused when I realized that you can use sound as a physical focus to create abnormal bone growth in young Dakhor monks. You can also use dance as a focus for ChayShan.  Perhaps the sounds and movements have symbolism that tie in with the person's homeland? Perhaps the sound is a vestige of Odium having visited? (since sound is an obvious physical focus on Roshar and the Dakhor seem rather spiteful) 

 

Basically I'm not at all comfortable with my understanding of the Physical Focus on Sel, and wanted to cover my bases. 

[Pechvarry]

hemuchemistborns

That was worth a rate up.

Seem unlikely that two shards occupying the same planet would create one system of magic unless they were working extremely closely with each other. Additionally, the Goddess of Love and the God of Dominion forming a romantic coupling just seems too appropriate to not play around with it. We know Cultivation did it with Honor after all.

Isn't this what Feruchemy is? It was around before Allomancy, and I'm pretty sure it predates Hemalurgy as well. As far as I can tell, Feruchemy was born from the interactions of 2 shards on a planet, with the other 2 systems being born out of the Shard conflict.

Also, Cultivation and Honor were a couple? This is news to me.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Pechvarry