Theory: Magic on Roshar has the Three Gods sharing ten Surges

[Kaurne]

Okay, this is just a weird brainwave I had last night. It might have been suggested before; if so, my apologies.

 

Theory: Magic on Roshar has the Three Gods sharing ten Surges

 

This idea is based off of several answers to questions Brandon has given. I’m going to list the information he has given out here:

 

-On Roshar you can see 10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it.

 

-Fabrials are a part of Cultivation’s magic

 

-Szeth doesn’t need to bond with a spren to do what he does, and is following a different path to Kaladin.

 

In addition, Shallan and Jasnah seem to require truthspren in order to do their kind of soulcasting, but do not require a fabrial.

 

So here’s my idea. There are ten surges on Roshar; 10 kinds of magic. Gravity, Pressure and transformation are three of these; there are others we haven't seen.

 

Each of these can be accessed via any of the three Shards (Honor, Odium or Cultivation). They all require different things to access.

 

Fabrials are required to access magic via Cultivation, or at least some of the magic It may be that other objects are necessary. The Nahel bond with Spren is required to access magic via Honor, and some unknown method is required to access magic via Odium (voidbinding?). All of these are fuelled by Stormlight in some manner.

 

That's it. That's magic on Roshar, in a nutshell. There are individual subtleties; the three don't use all the surges in the same way, although they might be able to.

 

For example, Cultivation's users can make fabrials that cover a number of the surges. Or Knights Radiant, who access two surges, can generate 'combined' powers using the two surges they can access.

 

But that's the overall stance; there are 10 surges, which are manipulated in different ways, with slightly different effects, by the followers of all Three Gods. Shallan and Jasnah are accessing Soulcasting via Honor, while all the ardents using fabrials are accessing it via Cultivation (ironic, since their religion seems to be worshipping Honor).

 

Szeth is accessing Windrunning powers via either Cultivation or Odium. I'm not quite sure; he obviously doesn't use a fabrial, and is certainly bound by an oath, but I'm pretty sure he isn't of Honor.

 

Obviously, there are some holes in this theory; the chief among them, to me, is Szeth, with the second being the question of why spren only work for Honor when spren are of Honor, Cultivation or both. Any thoughts?

[Josiah Bills]

I had a similar idea a while back: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2670-theory-the-30-magic-systems-are-actually-10/#entry46301. I am glad to know that I am not the only one to have thought of this. It seems to make the most sense given the known facts.

[Khmauv]

Where did Brandon say Fabrials are of cultivation?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, the way you gain access to a magic system is based off the shard, and it sure as heck doesn't involve honor or odium, so by process of elimination...

[Khmauv]

How do we know it's not of Odium?

[Kaurne]

Where did Brandon say Fabrials are of cultivation?

He didn't strictly speaking say that. Forgive me if I made a leap of logic there. What he said was:

 

- - -

 

Quote from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42206

3. You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Fabrials are part of it.

 

- - -

 

I'm kind of assuming that surgebinding here is Honor's magic, and voidbinding is Odium's.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Kaurne

[Phantom Monstrosity]

How do we know it's not of Odium?

 

You don't gain access to it by hating people/ being hated.

 

On the other hand, it does seem like fabrials involve some sort of growth, even if it's only in the metaphorical sense of gaining knowledge.

[hoser]

... Szeth is accessing Windrunning powers via either Cultivation or Odium. I'm not quite sure; he obviously doesn't use a fabrial, and is certainly bound by an oath, but I'm pretty sure he isn't of Honor.

Obviously, there are some holes in this theory; the chief among them, to me, is Szeth, with the second being the question of why spren only work for Honor when spren are of Honor, Cultivation or both. Any thoughts?

As others point out, Odium's magic is another significant hole.  If Odium's magic involves corrupting Honor and Cultivation's magic, trapping spren in fabrials seems like a possible mechanism.

How do we know it's not of Odium?

This!  Fabrial magic as the modern Alethi (such as Navani) perform involves "trapping" spren.  This seems odious rather than cultivation-linked.

I'm kind of assuming that surgebinding here is Honor's magic, and voidbinding is Odium's.

Yeah.  OK.  But do we know what voidbinding is?

It seems to me that Cultivation's magic must be based on living things.  The dragonwasps (larkin?) that form the backdrop of the radiant surge picture are very intriguing to me in that regard.
WoR spoiler:

The fact that people value larkin corpses highly suggests an Odium-based way of corrupting them also.  Although recycling could be cultivation-related.

Elsewhere there is a thread discussing the idea of windspren becoming honorspren.  Could the dragonwasps be involved in that process and would that be part of Cultivation's involvement?

The gem at the center of the alternate surge diagram would correspond to the fabrial based magic system, which could be voidbinding.

If Radiantblades and Shardplate were partially powered by spren voluntarily engaging with them, then when the Radiants abandoned them and renounced their oaths at the Recreance (assuming that's what happened), the spren could have voluntarily fled, hence the glowing stopping.  Alternately, Odium could have trapped the spren inside.

Szeth's blade could have a trapped Honorspren in it and be a fabrial.  As Szeth is bound to perform heinous crimes that he hates, the spren in the sword/fabrial could be compelled to act against it's nature.  What could be more Odious?

Mistborn spoiler

Almost too much like Marsh serving as Odium's champion against his will in the Mistborn series

[Khmauv]

Expanding this^ I have thought that maybe the KR powered their own shard plate. I postulate that addition of fabrials was a way to power them without the need to be a KR.

 

edit: to High-jack the use of these honorable tools.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Khmauv

[Isomere]

Expanding this^ I have thought that maybe the KR powered their own shard plate. I postulate that addition of fabrials was a way to power them without the need to be a KR.

I also think this is a likely theory. If you speak the Radiant Ideals and attune perfectly to Honor you could basically become a living stormgem, able to perfectly hold stormlight.

[Kaurne]

The gem at the center of the alternate surge diagram would correspond to the fabrial based magic system, which could be voidbinding.

 

 

Just a nitpick; Brandon explicitly confirmed that fabrials were a part of the non-voidbinding 10 magic systems.

[hoser]

Just a nitpick; Brandon explicitly confirmed that fabrials were a part of the non-voidbinding 10 magic systems.

Are you referring to the quote from your post #6 above?  If so, I find it significantly more ambiguous than you do.  Or is there another quote where he explicitly says that voidbinding does not use fabrials? 

Edited May 23, 2013 by hoser

[Morsk]

This!  Fabrial magic as the modern Alethi (such as Navani) perform involves "trapping" spren.  This seems odious rather than cultivation-linked.

It's "mean", but it's not spreading hatred. If killing people to extract death-visions is part of Voidbinding (just guessing), that would be Odium's intent, because it's encouraging people to do horrible things that provoke hatred. The Thrill does the same thing, whatever it is. But fabrials do nothing to encourage people to hate each other.

It seems to me that Cultivation's magic must be based on living things.  The dragonwasps (larkin?) that form the backdrop of the radiant surge picture are very intriguing to me in that regard.

Maybe it's both, and gemhearts are natural fabrials, Cultivation's magic. Then later on, humans figure out how to hack it for technology, when Cultivation was just trying to make huge crab monsters.

[Khmauv]

It's "mean", but it's not spreading hatred. If killing people to extract death-visions is part of Voidbinding (just guessing), that would be Odium's intent, because it's encouraging people to do horrible things that provoke hatred. The Thrill does the same thing, whatever it is. But fabrials do nothing to encourage people to hate each other.Maybe it's both, and gemhearts are natural fabrials, Cultivation's magic. Then later on, humans figure out how to hack it for technology, when Cultivation was just trying to make huge crab monsters.

There may be nothing inherently Odious about fabrials but it does allow people who are not honorable to access the power of Honor, thus allowing dishonorable people to perform Odious acts on a larger scale.

 

I could see that Odium, knowing that power corrupts, would invest a small amount of himself to make fabrials work, giving honor's power to those who seek it for selfish purposes. Wars would arise and the people of Roshar would do Odium's work, fueled by honors power.

 

edit: corrected typos.

 

edit: I maybe stretching here though.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Khmauv