Copperclouds: Cognitive Theory

[Satsuoni]

Disclaimers:

This thread is a spin-off of the thread "Why are Bronze burners able to hear The Well of Ascension?"

I am relatively sure this idea haven't been expressed in this way before (in OP), but I may be wrong. If so, please direct me to correct thread.

 

Theory:

 

I consider the Allomantic effects of Bronze and Copper. Despite the discrepancy of Pushing/Pulling, I think they are similar to the way Tin and Pewter work, but for different Realms. Tin and Pewter are Physical, and affect (primarily) Physical realm. Bronze and copper are Mental, so it would make sense that they affect primarily Cognitive realm.

 

Now, Bronze and Tin similarity is obvious. Both enhance senses, though Bronze enhances the sense that is too weak for normal humans to notice - the sense of "ripples in the fabric of reality". A person can sense it without Bronze, if his sensitivity is high enough. (This leads me to theorize that you could steal those "Mental" senses by some metal, and, in theory, become a permanent seeker through Hemalurgy). It is also quite probable, that those senses are limited to Cognitive pathways, which will become important later. As all realms interact, it is possible that the change in spiritual, for example, would leak onto Cognitive and be detected, though.

 

Now when we compare Pewter and Copper, the similarity is not obvious. Pewter makes you stronger and more agile, makes you heal faster and makes you body denser. Copper does not seem to affect one much.

One can say, though, that Copper makes your Cognitive aspect stronger, no longer as affected by Emotional Allomacy (you can still be affected if the allomancer is strong enough).

 

That does not explain copperclouds, until one considers what exactly is "Cognitive aspect." Here, however, I should refer to the curious aspect of time bubbles - namely, that it is affected by the perception of "object" and perception of "closeness", both Cognitive. If we consider one's cognitive aspect to be also part of intertwined cognitive aspects of things that perceive it and are perceived, in some way, by it, and assume that "ripples" heard by Bronze seeker propagate in cognitive realm along those connections, then increased strength and decreased "elasticity" of Smoker's cognitive aspect would dampen those pulses that happen to share the same connection.

 

The results would be as follows: mental effects not affecting Smoker as much or at all. Things that direct power through non-Cognitive channels will not be affected. A Seeker inside coppercloud would be "deaf". Mental Allomancy affecting a person inside coppercloud  (not Smoker himself) over a direct mental connection will be somewhat weaker, but not as much, possibly not significantly. And also, Coppercloud has an edge similar to time bubble.

 

Thoughts?

[Pechvarry]

This is a cool idea.  I can't point to any basis and say "your theory definitely explains things!"  But I like that it makes Copper a much more useful metal in a Cosmere sense: the idea that it provides a large defense against anything trying to enact change on your Cognitive aspect as opposed to an ability that exists purely to counter a few other (not very overwhelming) abilities. 

[Nepene]

You asked someone to comment on your theory. *reads over*

 

Ah.

 

You're a cool guy, none of this is intended as a personal attack.

 

Is copper cognitive? I doubt it.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#36

 

"Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself�the power of creation" and the power of creation is generally held to be made of spiritual power in its native form, not cognitive.

 

"Now, Bronze and Tin similarity is obvious. Both enhance senses, though Bronze enhances the sense that is too weak for normal humans to notice - the sense of "ripples in the fabric of reality"."

 

I don't believe we've seen any evidence that people can detect usage of powers, even enough to feel uncomfortable when someone is secretly using a power.

 

It may be, like with steel and iron pushing, that bronze and copper create entirely new abilities.
 

If we consider one's cognitive aspect to be also part of intertwined cognitive aspects of things that perceive it and are perceived, in some way, by it, and assume that "ripples" heard by Bronze seeker propagate in cognitive realm along those connections, then increased strength and decreased "elasticity" of Smoker's cognitive aspect would dampen those pulses that happen to share the same connection.

 

If the power is propagating along people's connections that too would likely be evidence that it was spiritual, given the definitions we've seen of the spiritual realm.

 

The results would be as follows: mental effects not affecting Smoker as much or at all. Things that direct power through non-Cognitive channels will not be affected.

 

The iron will stunt for copper in the mistborn rpg is (basically) increased spiritual resilience, like with pewter giving increased physical resilience. I disagree with your theory that it's a cognitive effect. As a spiritual effect it may well also offer some enhanced spiritual resistance through non spiritual channels.

 

Assuming that wasn't just made up by the rpg people.

 

If so, I would advance this theory- the copper takes your internal investiture resistance and massively magnifies it. The surrounding area is then slightly harder to influence with spiritual effects and so spiritual sound effects can't propagate through it. I will take Breeze at his word, that emotional allomancy is little different from normal social manipulation. Perhaps when someone angrily shouts at you in the Cosmere their spiritual connection to you attacks you as well. Copper may well grant you resistance from things like that.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

So would copperclouds shield against an awakener's lifesense, then?

[Nepene]

So would copperclouds shield against an awakener's lifesense, then?

 

Good idea, probably.

 

Your spiritual connection to other people.

 

Edit. Maybe that's the ability that bronze tweaks? You naturally have a connection to people, bronze just amplifies it and changes the frequency its tuned to.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Nepene

[Phantom Monstrosity]

"Now, Bronze and Tin similarity is obvious. Both enhance senses, though Bronze enhances the sense that is too weak for normal humans to notice - the sense of "ripples in the fabric of reality"."

 

Wait, does this mean you could use a tinmind and mimic bronze?

[Satsuoni]

You asked someone to comment on your theory. *reads over*

I did, didn't I? Thanks!

"Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself�the power of creation" and the power of creation is generally held to be made of spiritual power in its native form, not cognitive.

"Now, Bronze and Tin similarity is obvious. Both enhance senses, though Bronze enhances the sense that is too weak for normal humans to notice - the sense of "ripples in the fabric of reality"."

I don't believe we've seen any evidence that people can detect usage of powers, even enough to feel uncomfortable when someone is secretly using a power.

Well, the only case I can remember offhand is Vin hearing the Well without burning anything, but that was a special case. Still, unless her attunement or spike grew her a new sense (possible), it is still the sense other people have, just far, far too weak to notice.

If the power is propagating along people's connections that too would likely be evidence that it was spiritual, given the definitions we've seen of the spiritual realm.

True that. Doesn't mean that those connection can't have endpoints in Cognitive, rather than physical. Hmm...

The iron will stunt for copper in the mistborn rpg is (basically) increased spiritual resilience, like with pewter giving increased physical resilience. I disagree with your theory that it's a cognitive effect. As a spiritual effect it may well also offer some enhanced spiritual resistance through non spiritual channels.

Assuming that wasn't just made up by the rpg people.

I've read that now. All stunts either protect you or others from Emotional Allomancy (mental), or give you willpower, which I'll also argue to be mental presence. Also, they have the following "gem" on the same page:

A Smoker Savant gains two “free” Nudges with Copper rolls and is a rare case of a Misting being largely unaffected by continuous burning. Consequently, the Savant suffers no penalties when not burning Steel.

If so, I would advance this theory- the copper takes your internal investiture resistance and massively magnifies it. The surrounding area is then slightly harder to influence with spiritual effects and so spiritual sound effects can't propagate through it. I will take Breeze at his word, that emotional allomancy is little different from normal social manipulation. Perhaps when someone angrily shouts at you in the Cosmere their spiritual connection to you attacks you as well. Copper may well grant you resistance from things like that.

Resistance to all and every investiture seems a bit too much... Have to run now, more on this later!

Ok. Well, as mentioned, Investiture resistance is resistance to every power. That would imply that, for example, metals in Coppercloud will be harder to manipulate by Iron, and they'll be less visible, delineating a Coppercloud to any coinshot. As such, I think a complete resistance is a bit overmuch.

@phantom : I doubt that. A tinmind serves to store the same senses Tin increases, if in a different way, and that does not include mental sensitivity.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Nepene]

Well, the only case I can remember offhand is Vin hearing the Well without burning anything, but that was a special case. Still, unless her attunement or spike grew her a new sense (possible), it is still the sense other people have, just far, far too weak to notice.

 

I don't remember when that was, but I think it's more likely she was subconsciously burning bronze, or had absorbed some of the mist. She has lots of ways to use her powers to hear it.

 

True that. Doesn't mean that those connection can't have endpoints in Cognitive, rather than physical. Hmm...

I've read that now. All stunts either protect you or others from Emotional Allomancy (mental), or give you willpower, which I'll also argue to be mental presence. Also, they have the following "gem" on the same page:

 

Willpower is your spirit plus your wits. Since it is composed of spirits, it is at least half about spirits.

Resistance to all and every investiture seems a bit too much... Have to run now, more on this later!

 

Copper may only give you resistance to all spiritual investiture attacks. Many investiture abilities are physical or cognitive.

[Satsuoni]

Hm. Well, Vin might have been influenced by Ruin, who wanted her to find the place (she couldn't use mists with her earring in).

In any case, in game, Willpower is reduced on mental attack (though it is wits+spirit, which is.. not intuitive, considering that Inquisitors, with their spirit near zero and possibly not too smart still had plenty of willpower). If mental is not cognitive... could you describe what you consider to be Cognitive attacks beside Soulcasting?

 

[EDIT]

Edited May 7, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Nepene]

Hm. Well, Vin might have been influenced by Ruin, who wanted her to find the place (she couldn't use mists with her earring in).

In any case, in game, Willpower is reduced on mental attack (though it is wits+spirit, which is.. not intuitive, considering that Inquisitors, with their spirit near zero and possibly not too smart still had plenty of willpower). If mental is not cognitive... could you describe what you consider to be Cognitive attacks beside Soulcasting?

 

[EDIT]

 

A willpower attack causes this result.

 

Mental Conflicts are not mind control. It’s true that defeat can potentially

compel a target to act outside his or her typical mindset but this doesn’t

mean the target is emotionally shattered or a slave. Defeat merely compels

the target to act on one emotion or impulse, nothing more

 

So they are emotionally vulnerable and impulsive.

 

As with inquisitor's willpower, did they ever face any challenges? It seems to me like if anyone tried to challenge their willpower it would just result in them being skewed.

 

The cognitive plane is how you see yourself and how others see you, i.e. your reputation. So a cognitive attack would be rioting a person's insanity while in front of his companions, making him do silly things.

 

Social Conflicts are about smearing the enemy’s integrity in the eyes of

others,

which often also has the happy effect of elevating the winner’s position in

the process. This makes a social struggle very different than a physical combat

or

a mind game; here it isn’t just about winning — it’s about the opposition losing,

preferably with the biggest audience possible.

 

Given the description of social conflicts- causing people to see others differently- it sounds quite cognitive.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Nepene

[Satsuoni]

OK, color me confused

Now I no longer understand cognitive-sprititual distinction.

Let us see - emotional manipulation allows perfect control in case of Hemalurgic creations. Once again, I can't find the quote, but it has to do with, essentially, overwriting most emotions of the target with your own (where is that quote?) Emotion controls memory access and vise versa (for me, anyway). Memories seem cognitive.

Skewering is a sure sign of willpower, IMO   The amount of willpower necessary to simply punch a guy as per reconciliation agreement was tremendous (once again, I can only judge by my experiences) But that is probaply different for different people.

Next, Social interactions - based on Connection which we know to be Spritual (no connection, no socium. If you don't care about somebody's actions, he can't do much, if you don't care about anybody, well...) - are Cognitive?

 

How we view ourselves is part of our Identity, which is Spiritual, yet it is also part of our Cognitive aspect... As I said, I am pretty confused.

[Nepene]

OK, color me confused

Now I no longer understand cognitive-sprititual distinction.

Let us see - emotional manipulation allows perfect control in case of Hemalurgic creations. Once again, I can't find the quote, but it has to do with, essentially, overwriting most emotions of the target with your own (where is that quote?) Emotion controls memory access and vise versa (for me, anyway). Memories seem cognitive.

Skewering is a sure sign of willpower, IMO   The amount of willpower necessary to simply punch a guy as per reconciliation agreement was tremendous (once again, I can only judge by my experiences) But that is probaply different for different people.

Next, Social interactions - based on Connection which we know to be Spritual (no connection, no socium. If you don't care about somebody's actions, he can't do much, if you don't care about anybody, well...) - are Cognitive?

 

How we view ourselves is part of our Identity, which is Spiritual, yet it is also part of our Cognitive aspect... As I said, I am pretty confused.

 

You don't have access to their memories when you control them, just their emotions.

 

Skewing isn't a great sign of willpower, more of a lack of connection to humans.

 

Reconciliation agreement?

 

All things are cognitive, physical, and spiritual to some degree, as far as we know.

 

Connection is spiritual, the way you see yourself (often as a result of connections) is cognitive. Social interactions themselves involve physical movements and sounds, cognitive impressions, and spiritual connections.

[Satsuoni]

You don't have access to their memories when you control them, just their emotions.

Ah, true that. I meant personally. Emotions and memories are indelible parts of cognition, memories providing patterns of behaviour and emotions weights necessary to reach a decision, so they kind of have to be on the same level, in my opinion. I am relatively certain one cannot think without emotions (in case of computer programs, the programmer provides a set of fixed "emotions"). If you can control Koloss completely by overwriting their emotions, that is a kind of mind control, just more flexible than normal Rioting. In the end, it is an unresolved question: are Cosmere emotions cognitive or Spiritual? I myself prefer mind/body/life division at the core.

 

 

Reconciliation agreement?

What, did you never have a fight with a friend?   A reconciliation agreement is a mutually agreed way to even the score.

 

Complicated. However, one thing came to mind:

in Ars Arcanum, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy were specifically mentioned to have Spiritual component, "feelers" for Feruchemy, and primary impact for Hemalurgy. However, Spiritual Allomancy was not mentioned, which leads me to be more convinced that it is largely constrained in Physical and Cognitive (in effect, not method of action), though Enhancement quadrant is somewhat confusing.

[Nepene]

Ah, true that. I meant personally. Emotions and memories are indelible parts of cognition, memories providing patterns of behaviour and emotions weights necessary to reach a decision, so they kind of have to be on the same level, in my opinion. I am relatively certain one cannot think without emotions (in case of computer programs, the programmer provides a set of fixed "emotions"). If you can control Koloss completely by overwriting their emotions, that is a kind of mind control, just more flexible than normal Rioting. In the end, it is an unresolved question: are Cosmere emotions cognitive or Spiritual? I myself prefer mind/body/life division at the core.

 

 

What, did you never have a fight with a friend?   A reconciliation agreement is a mutually agreed way to even the score.

 

Complicated. However, one thing came to mind:

in Ars Arcanum, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy were specifically mentioned to have Spiritual component, "feelers" for Feruchemy, and primary impact for Hemalurgy. However, Spiritual Allomancy was not mentioned, which leads me to be more convinced that it is largely constrained in Physical and Cognitive (in effect, not method of action), though Enhancement quadrant is somewhat confusing.

 

Humans have lots of sorts of memory. It can be emotional or intellectual. Some revise by coloring in their notes, some by associating them with emotions.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Types_of_memory

 

There are people who have a lack of emotions.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

 

I don't think we have enough to say whether emotions are physical, cognitive, or spiritual.

 

Ah I see. You punched a friend.

 

The Ars Arcanum didn't mention any sorts of allomancy, spiritual, cognitive, or physical. It's not really especially strong evidence.

 

Zinc, copper, brass, and bronze all seem spiritual to me. You sense or hide the powers of creation, you attack their spirit with zinc or brass.