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Theory: Hoid is a Soul Forgery


Morsk

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This theory was my attempt to salvage a hunch I had when reading the Liar of Partinel sample: that Midius was one of (the original) Hoid's illusions, and that Hoid faked his death. Since Hoid is an illusionist, him dying at the start of the book was "proof" he didn't die, on thematic grounds. :D Or so I'd like, except for the obvious, obvious problem that illusions are incorporeal.

Instead, say the original Hoid forged his soul, convincing it he's actually a young apprentice Lightweaver, not the old master. This could have taken years, with Hoid maintaining the illusion of Midius so long that it took on a life of its own. Eventually there's no (original) Hoid left, only Midius, and Midius is using Hoid's body, which has become younger and changed. Midius experiences this as Hoid dying; Hoid would have experienced it as fading away.

I don't think Hoid used Sel's Forgery, or a pre-Shattering equivalent. Forgery rewrites the past, and there's no plausible way to rewrite the past to make yourself younger. So Hoid used something else. Maybe Lightweaving alone is enough to do it; maybe it took a bit of something else. But the realmatics came out the same. Hoid convinced his soul he was someone else, and he became that person.

 

Now for the interpretation of some quotes under this theory...

"You, however, may call me Hoid."
"Your name?"
"No. The name of someone I should have loved. Once again, this is a thing I stole. It is something we thieves do."

This has a dual meaning. Midius didn't realize everything Hoid was doing for him (to create him) until later, and missed his chance to love him as something like a father. But also, Midius may morbidly wish that he'd loved himself a bit more as Hoid and never changed at all. He may feel guilty that he exists instead of Hoid.

"I became life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself."

Thanks to TES, we know a way this can happen in the cosmere. The Emperor's replacement soul did start out as words on a page. But Hoid says he "stole himself", which is a bit more than just being born oddly. Maybe orignal Hoid only created the illusion as a companion to pass boredom, or as a lesson for another apprentice, not intending on going all the way to becoming it. But over time the illusion just became more compelling, and Hoid decided he preferred the fiction to the truth. In effect, the illusion stole control of itself from its maker.

Alternately, maybe this is normal for Lightweavers. As they get older, they create more fictional apprentices until they find one they're happy with, then work on the slow process of becoming that new person. This would explain some of their eccentric reputation, and why they stick to storytelling instead of finding mundane ways to make money off Lightweaving: if they're born from fiction, they'd come to consider fiction a sacred calling. Also, learning to be better storytellers is really learning to be a better person in their next life, so of course it interests them.

"There is a chance . . . and I’d say a fair one . . . that over time, the emperor’s brain will absorb the information. Like . . . like if you traced the exact same image on a stack of papers every day for a year, at the end the layers below will contain the image as well. Perhaps after a few years of being stamped, he won’t need the treatment any longer.”

I'm being sneaky here, and guessing wildly, but isn't that an awfully intricate realmatic explanation to get into for just this novella? I think Brandon already had the realmatics worked out, and why work it out except to use it?

 

If what's true for the Emperor is true for Hoid, this is telling us casting Dispel Magic (or the local equivalent) on Hoid won't turn him into a vegetable, a corpse, or his old identity. After a few years as Hoid, the identity is stable and no longer requires magic to maintain.

And this may be a difference between magic systems. Forgery changes the soul suddenly, but requires daily stamping for years (at least) afterwards. If Lightweavers gradually feed more identity into an apprentice over the course of years, that may suffice for the "waiting period".

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Wow, this is a pretty cool theory and has some solid grounding to it. It also could explain one thing that’s been bugging me about Midius/Hoid. Why did Midius take on Hoid's persona in the first place, why steal it?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well, wait. I just saw reference that Hoid uses Feruchemy to show up in the right place at the right time. Sanderson has also mentioned that Feruchemists can story "identity," although he doesn't want to talk too much about this subject yet. What if that's what Hoid is doing? Storing identity so that he can easily change his?

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Anyway, here's the exact quote. This is essentially we know on Hoid's feruchemy.

Mike Cockrum

Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?

Brandon Sanderson

He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.

Brandon's been pretty closelipped on what exactly Identity is/does. The idea of helping with disguise... dunno. Seems like it might work, but it's something that we're pretty much in the dark on. Identity apparently includes what shards you can handle power from, as of the latest AMA.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-6

I´m wondering if the same can be done with soothing(or rioting). If you where to increase your identity, that may/should increase your emotional imprint(or whatever you might call it), would your soothings/riotings become wastly more powerful in a simular way as weight makes steelpushing more powerful?

And if it does, is this how the lord ruler improved his Sooting in such a spectacular fasion?

Well, the Lord Ruler--don't forget--could compound any Allomancy he wanted. That creates some crazy effects. As for what you discuss in your first question, I don't want to touch too much on Identity yet as I am saving it for later books. Talking too much here might undermine my ability to reveal interesting and cool things in books when the time is right. I like your theory, and it has merit, but I'm not going to give you a yes or a no as it delves too much into what Identity, as an attribute, can do.

That said, compounding aluminium is apparently pretty useless

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-5

4. Is there any use to being a Copper compounder, from a feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an Aluminium compounder.

Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much.

So having a *lot* of Identity doesn't seem to be the secret to any super powers, or empowering your magical efficiency or anything. Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm glad some people liked this. It's pretty weird, but Hoid's quotes are so weird that it's hard to come up with anything that fits.

I just reread the Coppermind's page on Hoid, and it has another weird "identity issues" quote from Warbreaker. I'm going to quote the whole section because the page makes an interesting observation based on an interview too:

“I only tell stories, Your Grace. They may be truths, they may be fictions. All I know is that the stories themselves exist and that I must tell them.”

— Hoid to Siri on the truth of his stories[15]

“I learned it many, many years ago from a man who didn't know who he was, Your Majesty. It was a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died.”

— Hoid to Siri on where he learned his particular method of storytelling.[15]

As Hoid developed that type of storytelling,[30] it's possible that the "man who didn't know who he was" is himself.

So Hoid is either referring to himself in the third person, or saying his master also had a strange identity issue. It's not giving me any new ideas, or confirming the theory, but at least it fits and doesn't contradict anything which is encouraging.
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It's not that uncommon for someone to refer to themselves in the third person in such a context. If he no longer believe's he's the same person he once was, or if he's since "found" who he is, then it doesn't strike me as particularly notable. A good question for Brandon though.

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He didn't learn it from himself. He has to be speaking about his old master (who he should have loved and whose name he took according to quotes from WoK). Brandon knows the story and is dropping breadcrumbs. Just enough to keep us interested. Not enough to be able to figure anything out.

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It's not that uncommon for someone to refer to themselves in the third person in such a context. If he no longer believe's he's the same person he once was, or if he's since "found" who he is, then it doesn't strike me as particularly notable. A good question for Brandon though.

I think it's pretty weird, although it's explained well enough by Hoid being very old, and also by him liking word games. The "words on a page" quote is the one that makes me look for a magical explanation before anything else; it's so weird that it suggests a magical explanation, while the others are only encouraging because they're compatible with magical explanation.

I don't really want an answer from Brandon, at least not now. He gave us so much stuff in TES and the Reddit AMA; I'd rather wait for Stormlight 2 at this point, since it's likely to give us more about Shadesmar and Hoid. Then maybe ask "Did Hoid have a mother? A childhood?"

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Oh, yeah I agree that's a good question. I like the inference the Coppermind draws based on that [30] source, but it would be nice if we could get a clearer answer too.

Edited by Morsk
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