Theory: There are no Universal Soulcasters

[Kurkistan]

First off, forgive me for vagueness/inaccuracy/laughable forgetfulness. It's been near-on two years, as far as I can recall, since I read WoK (I'm waiting to get a fresh read just before SA2 comes out). So I may be off-base on how I remember soulcasters being shown to work. I may also simply be wrong, since we haven't yet learned much about real soulcasters. All that aside: Theory Time.

In short, I believe that the "basic" soulcasters that only produce a single essence in an uninspired way are, in fact, the only soulcasters that are actually fabrials. Soulcasting "fabrials" which can transform multiple essences in an unlimited variety of ways, then, are all fakes used by Ardents who have gained Soulcasting powers similar to Shallan and Jasnah's. This would mean that Voidus' "the soulcaster was a fake" theory would be accurate, and that Shallan's soulcaster never worked. It may also mean that the Ghostbloods wanted to assassinate Jasnah as an end in itself, because they knew that she could soulcast on her own, rather than as a means of separating her from her fake soulcaster.

We know from Shallan's introduction that "multi-use" soulcasters are very rare, and from Kabsal that most soulcasters work by just pushing a button, essentially. This button-pushing doesn't leave much room for any kind of imaginative process to determine the form of the soulcast-target, and would seem redundant if soulcasting fabrials interacted properly with the minds of their users.

The secrecy with which Ardent's carry out soulcasting could also be a clue, although, to be fair, it could just be standard religious ceremony instead of evil plots.

One--non-my-theory, but still evil plots related--explanation could be that the Ardents don't want laymen getting any bright ideas about exactly who keep the soulcasters once they see that all you have to do is point and click. If you go along with me to super-crazy-land, though, this explanation stacks on-top of another, deeper level of deceit in that Soulcasting!Ardents don't want someone to steal a batch of soulcasters including at least one of the (fake) uber-soulcasters, only then to not be able to get it the uber-soulcaster to work while the non-fake real fabrials did.

On a level of deception which is approximately as deep as the previous, but laterally differentiated, the Soulcasting!Ardents could want to hide the nature of their "fabrials" from junior members of the Ardentia, which would be hard to do if just anyone could wander by and observe, but is quite easy if they could restrict attendance to high-level ceremonies involving fake soulcasters to only high-level Ardents. Since junior Ardents would never see an uber-soulcaster used, they'd have no reason to be suspicious of it not working the same way as their (real) low-level fabrials do.

Then again, the above two-paragraphs could be nonsense and senior Ardents could get along fine and dandy, whether or not my theory is right, by just pushing buttons on their soulcasters, either as how they actually work or as a very effective ruse.

As I said, we don't have much info on soulcasters at this juncture, and I haven't read the book in awhile, so I would appreciate any thoughts you guys (and gals) might have on the subject.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Kurkistan]

*Shameless bump*

Could someone at least give me a "no, that's stupid" or something? I'm feeling a bit lonely here.

[Satsuoni]

Oh, fine

I think it is stupid, though possible *shrug*.

For example, there is the fact that low level Ardents have to be trained in use of soulcasters, and they don't get it right at first. So even for "point and click" soulcasters there is a degree of difficulty involved, which seems to suggest that while activation may be easy, there is something else involved in process itself. One of the simplest explanations would be that clicking sends your mind into Shadesmar, and then do what you will within limit of your fabrial. Also, the fact that one of the most popular use of Soulcasters is food casting, and food is not an Essence, but a mix or mod. So there must be a lot of high level Ardents. If they all are using (widely reviled) Radiant power, it is bound to leak somehow, unless they are *all* corrupt to the core. So, no. I think the Soulcasters are mainly normal fabrials...

[Cheese Ninja]

I don't like it, mostly for the points Satsuoni mentioned. I especially like the whole "sending the mind to Shadesmar" thing, since it explains both why the ardents in the Interlude know about Shadesmar and why Kabsal thinks the whole thing is as simple as tapping the stones on the Soulcaster, when we can be pretty sure that it isn't that simple, since we see in another Interlude the scrap metal results of Soulcaster training.

Also, I still think the easiest way to get feedback on a theory is to throw in a poll asking how much people agree it.

[Kurkistan]

Oh, fine :)/>/>

I think it is stupid, though possible *shrug*.

For example, there is the fact that low level Ardents have to be trained in use of soulcasters, and they don't get it right at first. So even for "point and click" soulcasters there is a degree of difficulty involved, which seems to suggest that while activation may be easy, there is something else involved in process itself. One of the simplest explanations would be that clicking sends your mind into Shadesmar, and then do what you will within limit of your fabrial. Also, the fact that one of the most popular use of Soulcasters is food casting, and food is not an Essence, but a mix or mod. So there must be a lot of high level Ardents. If they all are using (widely reviled) Radiant power, it is bound to leak somehow, unless they are *all* corrupt to the core. So, no. I think the Soulcasters are mainly normal fabrials...

*Feels oddly happy at Satsuoni's violent disagreement*

I didn't write this in the OP because I was feeling ignorant that day, but it has occurred to that f!Soulcasters might need to be manually "tuned" to specific outputs--through manipulation of the patterns of gemstones or even the capturing of different spren.

Such a tuning process could be quite involved and difficult, resulting in bland food and unimaginative buildings as most Ardents leave theirs preset to what they need the most. This would also account for the need for all Ardents to train--not in negotiating Shadesmar, then, but in maintaining and manipulating their fabrials.

This leaves the secret keep-able, since food could just be a specific, arduously figured out, but preset setting on f!Soulcasters

EDIT: @Cheese

The Ardents in the interlude know about Shadesmar? Now, granted, I haven't read that interlude in awhile, but I don't recall that in the slightest. I even just did a word search for "Shadesmar" as well as checking both wikis, and I didn't find anything about it.

I don't think polls are very appropriate for speculative threads, personally. Maybe if you're just gauging general sentiment--seeing what people already believe--then you can throw in a poll to ask how many people are walking around believing a theory, but not if you're just starting out with a relatively novel (if possibly incredibly wrong) concept.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Well, yes, but this does not explain why food created by minor ardent is poisonous - why can't they just use the preset fabrial then? Also,the fact that soulcasting (naturally) is Radiant power is in the books, apparently available to ardents, and ardents refer to Radiants as "demons":

But they’re demons, father. I heard it off that ardent who came teaching last spring.”

“That’s the Radiants he spoke of,” Lirin said sharply. “You’re mixing them again.”

Which means that a lot of higher ardents in your theory refer to themselves as "demons"... Possible, but strange. Besides, shardcasters are "holy relics", implying that it is hard/impossible to make more, and replacing spren seems like dangerous enough operation, not something to be given to novices to fiddle with. In your case, it would have been more sensible for novices to use presets only, and for masters to actually change presets...

I just find it unlikely is all

[Kurkistan]

a) Poison food by accident? I do not recall. And, if I did, I would probably say "sounds like he tuned his soulcaster badly".

b> Hypocrisy is fun! Also, the Ardents could make a very clear distinction between the Radiants and surgebinding in general. As far as we can tell from the Nahoden scene, people were forming Nahel bonds well before the Radiants existed; they probably even still formed bonds outside the bounds of the organization during the KR's "reign."

The fact that the public, and even some Ardents, might be a bit bad at making these fine distinctions (as your quote and it's context (Kal's father tells him about the Radiants simply being corrupted by power, but not demons) shows) is good enough reason to hide soulcasting.

c) You need to be a bit nuanced with "master" and "novice." In a world of secret societies, it would probably be better described as "master f!Soulcaster, journeyman f!Soulcaster, novice f!Soulcaster" and the same stratification for those who could actually surgebind. There's no reason to keep the ability to "tune" soulcasters exclusive to the same group that knows how real soulcasting works. Presumably, novices who can't even tune their f!Soulcasters aren't allowed out into the field until they're trained up.

d) Then again, I may well, as you suggest, be completely wrong about everything. I'm on the fence with the plausibility of this theory myself (hence why I'm not espousing it). I started the thread to evaluate the plausibility of this kind of division being the state of affairs.

Thank you for challenging me; I would be perfectly happy if you turn out to be right according to the books or even just beat me soundly in terms of arguments right here and now, but I feel the need to play devil's advocate to the current assumption that the Ardents are using real fabrials for all of their soulcasting.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Meg]

a) Poison food by accident? I do not recall. And, if I did, I would probably say "sounds like he tuned his soulcaster badly".

Vstim affirmed in Rysn's Interlude (I-4) to Thresh that

Those scraps are ... made by ardents practicing with Soulcasters. They can't make food, because if you get it wrong, it's poisonous.

As for the Soulcasters I think they are no fabrials. If I understand it right, each fabrial contains a spren. I don't think Soulcasters contain spren -- or this is the explanation why Shallan's 'repaired' Soulcaster didn't work (but Luesh should have known that gems with trapped spren would have been needed to make the Soulcaster work again). But, maybe, I'm totally wrong.

[Cheese Ninja]

“I wonder if they eat in the Cognitive Realm. Is a food there what it sees itself as being? I’ll have to read and see if anyone has ever eaten while visiting Shadesmar.”

-Ashir, Geranid's husband. I don't remember if ardents can actually marry, but they're pretty much husband and wife.

[Kurkistan]

@Meg

Thanks for the quote. If soulcasters are not just props, I think they'd almost certainly contain spren, which would provide an answer for why the Davar soulcaster didn't work, if it was real.

@Cheese

Okay then, score one for side "Kurkistan needs to read WoK again". Nice quote. I wish I'd remembered that one when I was writing up the MEC, it would have made the Cognitive a bit clearer. So this means Shadesmar is known about, at least among the Ardentia.

Given the fact that Ashir said he'd "have to read and see," instead of just saying "I'll ask Bob next time he goes to Shadesmar," he, at least, is almost certainly not aware of anyone going to Shadesmar in the present day, particularly within the Ardentia. Since Shadesmar itself isn't a secret, and in fact seems pretty well known and not at all "burn heathen!", I must ask why, if Ardents at large still are and always have been jaunting to Shadesmar using fabrials, Ashir doesn't know about it.

So, unless my brain is more pretzel-shaped than usual right now, that quote is actually pretty good evidence for f!Soulcasters not taking their users to Shadesmar, at the very least. If they don't go to Shadesmar, then they may not be able to Cognitively shape their soulcasting at all, necessitating a button-pushing approach.

EDITNESS!:

But I doubt any power on heaven or earth could mechanistically describe chicken (and no, saying "it tastes like everything" doesn't count), Nevermind, they don't soulcast chicken. In fact, Dalinar notes that all soulcast food is inherently bland (pg 324). Oops.

On the flip side, I found the passage (on Amazon) where Shallan exposits the differences between types of soulcasters: "Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed tock buildings out of air or cloth. A grand one, like Jasnah's, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one" (pg 91).

I would say this still supports the supposition that something special is happening with "the 10%." Going from "well, I guess I can do absurdly simple transformations" to "whatever my heart desires" is a big leap, and seems to necessitate a richer (Shadesmarian) control interface.

-----

and so it seems that Ardents "using" universal soulcasters must be entering Shadesmar without telling the rest of the church about it--if there is no direct Cognitive interactions with the objects f!Soulcasters target.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

But I doubt any power on heaven or earth could mechanistically describe chicken

Well, they could contain a KFCspren.

Or maybe there's some method where you use a sample of what you're trying to make...

[Kurkistan]

Well, they could contain a KFCspren.

Or maybe there's some method where you use a sample of what you're trying to make...

Shhh! Both of those are far too plausible!

-Photo Credit: Satsuoni

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot some small factoids about the books, like the one about me being wrong. See edit to previous post.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Cheese Ninja]

@Cheese

Okay then, score one for side "Kurkistan needs to read WoK again". Nice quote. I wish I'd remembered that one when I was writing up the MEC, it would have made the Cognitive a bit clearer. So this means Shadesmar is known about, at least among the Ardentia.

Given the fact that Ashir said he'd "have to read and see," instead of just saying "I'll ask Bob next time he goes to Shadesmar," he, at least, is almost certainly not aware of anyone going to Shadesmar in the present day, particularly within the Ardentia. Since Shadesmar itself isn't a secret, and in fact seems pretty well known and not at all "burn heathen!", I must ask why, if Ardents at large still are and always have been jaunting to Shadesmar using fabrials, Ashir doesn't know about it.

So, unless my brain is more pretzel-shaped than usual right now, that quote is actually pretty good evidence for f!Soulcasters not taking their users to Shadesmar, at the very least. If they don't go to Shadesmar, then they may not be able to Cognitively shape their soulcasting at all, necessitating a button-pushing approach.

EDITNESS!:

But I doubt any power on heaven or earth could mechanistically describe chicken (and no, saying "it tastes like everything" doesn't count), Nevermind, they don't soulcast chicken. In fact, Dalinar notes that all soulcast food is inherently bland (pg 324). Oops.

On the flip side, I found the passage (on Amazon) where Shallan exposits the differences between types of soulcasters: "Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed tock buildings out of air or cloth. A grand one, like Jasnah's, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one" (pg 91).

I would say this still supports the supposition that something special is happening with "the 10%." Going from "well, I guess I can do absurdly simple transformations" to "whatever my heart desires" is a big leap, and seems to necessitate a richer (Shadesmarian) control interface.

-----

and so it seems that Ardents "using" universal soulcasters must be entering Shadesmar without telling the rest of the church about it--if there is no direct Cognitive interactions with the objects f!Soulcasters target.

Or maybe Bob is just really, really busy, and they barely ever get a chance to talk to the guy, since they are spending their semi-retirement pretty far away from most other ardents and it's easy to say that you'll keep in touch by spanreed, sending birthday wishes and all that, but sometimes, you just don't feel like it, you've grown apart and don't feel like having to talk with them about topics that neither of you really care about. Ashir might think it would be easier to find in a book if anyone has eaten while in Shadesmar, rather than get into a long drawn out conversation with Bob about what's been going on his life lately.

Maybe the universal Soulcasters do allow passage to Shadesmar. It would certainly explain the differences in capabilities. I do think they're real, and not some lie made up by Soulcasting ardents with Nahel bonds.

[Kurkistan]

^Also far too plausible. Stop doing that, Cheese!

At the very least, then, even if my conspiracy theories don't bear fruit, we've managed to figure out that universal soulcasters most likely allow access to Shadesmar, while more limited ones do not.

[Meg]

I've to admit that my "Soulcasters =|= fabrials"-theory seems wrong as in chapter 5 it's stated explicitly that the word "Soulcaster" also means "the fabrial" that makes soulcasting possible. I'm sorry.

Can anyone explain which of the five types of fabrials that are mentioned in the Ars Arcanum is for Soulcasting? I can't figure it out (I'm slow on the update :-)).

Thus if Soulcasters are fabrials and fabrials need captivated spren -> the repaired Soulcaster could not have worked. Or?

[happyman]

Thus if Soulcasters are fabrials and fabrials need captivated spren -> the repaired Soulcaster could not have worked. Or?

That's a common idea. If the soulcaster was damaged in a way which destroyed the spren, not working and not being easily repairable is completely natural.

[Meg]

Oh, I hope the spren wasn't destroyed but freed. (poor sprens :/)

[Elwynn]

Oh, I hope the spren wasn't destroyed but freed. (poor sprens :/)

That's the same way I felt when I first read the pages of Navani's notebook. Those poor spren!

[Cheese Ninja]

There's an upside to being alone with your opinion. If you turn out to be right, you get to say "I told you so!" to everyone. That's my motivation for Ishar=Thaidakar=Drunk Man at Beggars Feast.

To get a bit closer to the original topic: I treat pretty much all of the Interludes besides Szeth's as info dumps, and pay them a bit more attention. Which I think is a good way to look at them. BS said that he wanted to put them in there to give an idea for the scope of the world without bogging himself down with extraneous major viewpoint characters. That one line of Ashir tells us:

1) The Ardentia is familiar with Shadesmar, and know it both as Shadesmar and the Cognitive Realm.

2) There are writings about visiting Shadesmar.

3) These writings are considered, by Ashir at least, to be worthwhile sources.

From there we can speculate endlessly about whether these are recent or ancient writings, by Ardents or Radiants, and if they are by Ardents, whether it's still possible to travel there, the most obvious choice at this point being the Soulcasters, possibly with a preference to the Soulcasters capable of effecting all sorts of changes.

There's some appeal to this, Shallan is a fairly well-educated young woman, but she has no idea what Shadesmar is when she finds herself there. She herself says everything about Soulcasters is kept highly secret by the Ardentia, and while trying to find out more, neither has much success nor learns about Shadesmar. Here we see an ardent casually namedropping the place in a private setting.

I'll admit that it's possible that all high level Soulcasters are fakes, but it doesn't feel right to me. The Nahel bond seems like it is far too unpredictable to selectively gather those two Soulcasting Orders into your ranks if you're trying to be secretive about the whole thing. Then again, judging from Shallan and Jasnah, artists and scholars are the most likely to attract the needed Nahel spren types for it. Still, this doesn't fit the overall plot point of Surgebinding being gone until just recently.

Now to go a bit far off-topic: Do you think Axies knows about Shadesmar? I think he should.

The guards towed him off toward the city dungeons, but he didn’t mind. Two new spren in as many days! At this rate, it might only take a few more centuries to complete his research.

From that quote it seems like Siah Aimians can live for centuries.

“I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian. If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me. Or perhaps Gibletish.”

Dysian Aimians sound pretty weird, but I'm not sure what part of that quote to take as an observation of them. If you read it one way, they sound a bit like Kandra.

[Kurkistan]

<Snip for first part>

I do try to be unique. :D/>

That's a good analysis, also. I suppose it's a plausible story that "real" f!Soulcasters exist; perhaps a certain number of them were left over, with all the "lesser" soulcasters being attempted copies, like Half-Shards to Shardplate.

Now to go a bit far off-topic: Do you think Axies knows about Shadesmar? I think he should. From that quote it seems like Siah Aimians can live for centuries.

I don't think he does. Brandon has said that some spren live in the Cognitive Realm, so it seems that we would have gotten a hint of that connection in Axies' interlude if he knew about it.

Dysian Aimians sound pretty weird, but I'm not sure what part of that quote to take as an observation of them. If you read it one way, they sound a bit like Kandra.

I don't think so. The current theory I find persuasive is that he's talking about Adonalsium, given the context (which you should know of, since your espousing it...).

Edited February 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Meg]

I didn't write this in the OP because I was feeling ignorant that day, but it has occurred to that f!Soulcasters might need to be manually "tuned" to specific outputs--through manipulation of the patterns of gemstones or even the capturing of different spren.

On the flip side, I found the passage (on Amazon) where Shallan exposits the differences between types of soulcasters: "Nine out of ten Soulcasters were capable of a few limited transformations: creating water or grain from stone; forming bland, single-roomed tock buildings out of air or cloth. A grand one, like Jasnah's, could effectuate any transformation. Literally turn any substance into any other one" (pg 91).

Shallan tells us, that different gems give different results.

Emeralds were the most valuable, for they could be used by Soulcasters to create food.

I didn't write this in the OP because I was feeling ignorant that day, but it has occurred to that f!Soulcasters might need to be manually "tuned" to specific outputs--through manipulation of the patterns of gemstones or even the capturing of different spren.

I understand this as the gems determine which result the Soulcast-process will have. As for practice is necessary there would not be used the most valuable gems for it.

And I think that it's not obligatory that each Soulcaster is identical to Jasnah's/Davar's Soulcaster (in their form and which gems (and spren) are built in). So different Soulcasters will spawn different results.

Which is nearly the same like your idea.

That one line of Ashir tells us:

1) The Ardentia is familiar with Shadesmar, and know it both as Shadesmar and the Cognitive Realm.

2) There are writings about visiting Shadesmar.

3) These writings are considered, by Ashir at least, to be worthwhile sources.

You emphasized "visiting" and I feel this is important. I think "Visiting" =|= "going to Shadesmar for Soulcasting.", but I can't explain that feeling (while writing it I found my first attempt of justification wrong).

As for the "evil ardents": I would say it's common that all things can be seen from different ways. If the ardents are Soulcasters that does not necessarily mean that "the ordinary ardent running around through the country" can't call the Radiants demons. That's for the average population and doesn't have to be the way the Ardentia sees itself. I hope I could show what I want to point out.

[Cheese Ninja]

I don't think he does. Brandon has said that some spren live in the Cognitive Realm, so it seems that we would have gotten a hint of that connection in Axies' interlude if he knew about it.

I don't think so. The current theory I find persuasive is that he's talking about Adonalsium, given the context (which you should know of, since your espousing it...).

Obviously, the overall Cosmere context of the quote is about Adonalsium and what would happen if the Shards were reunited, but it also is the only mention we're given of Dysian Aimians. What I'm not sure of is which part of that statement applies to Dysian Aimians as well, and which is purely hypothetical.

[Kurkistan]

@Meg

I'm fairly sure we're in agreement.

@Cheese

Okay, thanks for clearing that up, I thought my memory-fail might be spreading.

I'm not sure what we can even begin to say about "Dysian Aimians", since we have so little to go on. Keep in mind that it may be some kind of literary/mythological reference, akin to "put together out of spare parts like Frankenstein's monster."

[CabbageHead]

I'm not sure what we can even begin to say about "Dysian Aimians", since we have so little to go on. Keep in mind that it may be some kind of literary/mythological reference, akin to "put together out of spare parts like Frankenstein's monster."

There's only 1 reference to Dysian Aimians, but there are other references to Aimians. Specifically, in the interlude with Axies the Collector, who is himself Aimian. They are there described as being able to rearrange some aspects of their physical nature, such as creating tattoos on their bodies at will.

[Kurkistan]

^Yes, and Aimia is also the land of the Dragonwasps and various other weird creatures. I suppose Axies might be able to reattach an arm or something. The problem is that this is literally all we know.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Kurkistan