Ruin's influence and Copperclouds

[Oudeis]

Both Marsh and Vin (this is my first post, and I'm unsure of the etiquette; should I be citing quotes from the books?) compare Ruin's influence to Soothing and Rioting.

Someone burning copper is resistant to emotional Allomancy.

Could burning copper provide some protection from Ruin's influence? I realize that the sheer power involved makes the point moot; it's like asking if an umbrella can protect you from a lava flow. But is the principle behind it sound?

[Observer]

Extremely unlikely. They (Or at least Vin, as she's the only one I remember ATM) compared it to emotional allomancy because of how subtle Ruin was in getting what he wanted, lightly pulling on their drives. It's like asking if copperclouds will sap a thug's strength or block a coinshot from pushing on metal. It's unlikely, and even in the event that such a thing is possible (If Elend and TLR couldn't do it, we're talking HUGE amount of investure) it would take such an absurd amount of power to do it that you'd be better of burning nicrosil in the first place.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Observer

[Oudeis]

They (Or at least Vin, as she's the only one I remember ATM) compared it to emotional allomancy because of how subtle Ruin was in getting what he wanted, lightly pulling on their drives. It's like asking if copperclouds will sap a thug's strength or block a coinshot from pushing on metal.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. I get that in the first sentence you're saying that it ISN'T actual emotional Allomancy, it's just alike in one regard (subtlety), and that's why it's mentioned. I can respect that, as it's never flat out said, "this is Allomancy." That said, I still plan to try to find the specific quotes I'm looking for, sometime when I'm not at work, to support my theory that maybe it IS Allomancy.

As for the second sentence, I'm not sure that it's a fair point that you are making. I never claimed that copperclouds are the opposite of all Allomancy, but it's an established fact that copperclouds do protect you from emotional Allomancy. It's stated as an immunity, but we later learn that it's a matter of power levels. At the final ball in Fadrex City, Vin hits a Tineye and a Smoker with a duralumin-enhanced Soothing. Obviously it was strong enough that the small protection the Smoker got wasn't relevant, but the fact remains that according to the metaphysics of the book, she still should have received some protection. It's been shown that copper protection isn't a binary thing, meaning it's not a matter of "it protects or it doesn't". When Vin first practiced piercing copperclouds, she could sense Kell's power VERY VERY slightly, even though he was standing right next to her. If copperclouds provided NO protection when pierced, he should have been pounding like bongos.

It's unlikely, and even in the event that such a thing is possible (If Elend and TLR couldn't do it, we're talking HUGE amount of investure) it would take such an absurd amount of power to do it that you'd be better of burning nicrosil in the first place.

Elend never heard Ruin, so he'd have no reason to try blocking it.

Do we know Rashek thought to try blocking out Ruin? It might never have occurred to him. Or maybe he needed a duralumin-enhanced coppercloud, which would by definition be short-lived; he could only get a few moments of peace at a time, and he'd have to constantly chug vials of copper, which would be seen as a sign of weakness.

Regardless, I admitted in the original post that I realize Ruin is strong enough to pierce any coppercloud; my question was on whether or not the principle was sound. You have brought up the point that Ruin's influence was not emotional Allomancy; I accept this as valid conjecture, and I will respond by searching for the quotes from HoA that support my theory, though I concede the point that it's never flat-out said.

Does anyone out there know another source I can check (I understand that Sanderson answers specific questions in person at book-signings; has anyone asked him this?)?

Lastly, burning nicrosil wouldn't help, as that's the metal that empowers anyone you touch, not yourself.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my question!

[Observer]

Sorry, I meant tapping nicrosil :/

The power needed to get through TLR copperclouds would have to be on an emotion-flattening level, to the point the Ruin's subtleness would fail completely. With copperclouds you need to hit them with a certain amount of force to get through, so once the cloud is up the only thing you can hit them with is a massive crushing wave of allomancy. It sounds so totally unlike the way ruin works, not even taking into account how weak he was back before WoA.

Long story short, no. I don't think a coppercloud would stop Ruin in the slightest.

[Musicspren]

I think copper is probably allomancy-specific. We don't know what realm copper operates primarily on, but as it's part of the mental quadrant, I'd venture a guess that it's cognitive. As Hemalurgy is on the spiritweb, I'm guessing it's primarily spiritual (nothing is entirely one realm or the other, but these could be mainly on one). Copper may put up a sort of blind in the cognitive realm - not impenetrable, but obscuring. If most of Ruin's spike influence is through the spiritual realm, the cognitive blind likely wouldn't help much.

One other possibility is aluminum shielding - not only is aluminum unaffected by iron or steel (this on its own could indiciate that it didn't view itself as a metal), it apparently shields from emotional allomancy (thus the aluminum foil hats mentioned in passing in AofL), which a normal, non-metal substance would not. However, if Ruin has a direct connection to the spiritweb via the spike, I suspect it's like trying to shield from an IV (Intravenous, not Roman numeral 4) - you can't very well stop it without disconnecting it - removing the spike in this case.

[Eric]

Could burning copper provide some protection from Ruin's influence? I realize that the sheer power involved makes the point moot; it's like asking if an umbrella can protect you from a lava flow. But is the principle behind it sound?

No, the principle is not sound. Ruin is capable of fueling Allomancy, though he finds it easier to do when it is gained through Hemalurgy. Ruin is therefore demonstrably exempt from at least one of the most basic rules of Allomancy (i.e., that it requires metals). While this doesn't speak to the issue at hand directly, it does imply that he's exempt from what we think of as the rules.

Further, while the Investiture of Ruin gives the Shardholder access to one's spiritual and cognitive aspect, there exists the ability to utilize mental imbalances to make those same connections (see: Vin's mother). So we can reasonably infer that it is less a direct effect of the Metallic Arts and more a loophole in the psychology (or spiritual and cognitive aspects) of those people on Scadrial that allows a Shardholder to exploit the warping of one (insanity for cognitive or Hemalurgy for spiritual) to affect individuals.

So even if he utilized a method entirely like emotional Allomancy to influence people, we cannot reasonably assume that normal methods of dealing with Allomancy would apply, and we can reasonably assume that it is far enough from emotional Allomancy to be irrelevant in any case.

It's a good thought, but it doesn't hold up under what scrutiny we can give it.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Eric

[Oudeis]

If Ruin has a direct connection to the spiritweb via the spike, I suspect it's like trying to shield from an IV.

That's interesting, and I hadn't thought of it before. Thank you!

[Observer]

I've always wondered why aluminum would protect from emotional allomancy. Does it set up some kind of cognitive blockage, like metal to the shards?

Along the original lines, does it obscure the person's cognitive with its own, convincing your allomancy that their brain is a hat? (In Wayne's case, this may not be far from the truth)

Or maybe aluminum follows its feruchemical use and messes with your identity?

And now, the stupid question:

Vin was spiked, therefore, if you hit her with an absurdly powerful duralumin-zinc-brass wave, could you perform a koloss-style mindcontrol?

Answer: If a shard couldn't do it, probably not a big enough loophole to mean anything.

[Oudeis]

Vin was spiked, therefore, if you hit her with an absurdly powerful duralumin-zinc-brass wave, could you perform a koloss-style mindcontrol?

I think this question is the most intelligent thing I've ever seen you say.

To answer your question, I do not think so. It is my understanding that there is a difference between a mere Hemalurgist and a true Hemalurgic creation. Enough spikes of the right type in specific right places will change someone from a person who happens to benefit from Hemalurgy, into a creature that is no longer fully human. One spike is not enough to do it, and I think it was firmly implied in the books, if not flat-out stated, that it's a binary process. What do I mean by that? It's not a matter of, every spike is one more step on the road to being a Hemalurgic creation. Instead, no matter how many spikes you get, you remain nothing more or less than a person benefiting from Hemalurgy until the final spike makes the fundamental change all at once.

That said, with the "holes in your mind" and your increasingly violent nature it's not entirely implausible to assume that you are more susceptible to emotional Allomancy, but I think that you are not vulnerable to the actual "I have direct control of your body" power until you cross that final step.