Theory: Why Feruchemy Loses Power

[Windrunner]

The fact that a when Feruchemist surges (I'll use the term for now but I hope there is going to be a canon one eventually) an attribute he loses power has always confused me. Feruchemy is end-neutral, so losing power doesn't make any sense. But today while I was trying to figure out how interactions between Ruin and Preservation made Feruchemy, I think I may have stumbled upon a potential reason.

I attempted to fit Feruchemy into Ruin and Preservation and realized that could they power it half and half quite nicely. Preservation is what allows the power to be stored. Ruin on the other hand lets it be used, however not without a cost. Rather like Hemalurgic decay when an attribute is overdrawn it ends up with less power overall because it is, after all, Ruin that is allowing the attribute to be "Ruined" or used up. Am I making any sense or what? Feedback is always welcome.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Windrunner

[Aradel]

I made a post about that here.

[Windrunner]

I can see your theory being true potentially. I just think that involving both Ruin and Preservation in it somehow makes more sense, because Feruchemy is a balence magic.

[Aradel]

I can see your theory being true potentially. I just think that involving both Ruin and Preservation in it somehow makes more sense, because Feruchemy is a balence magic.

It does use balance though. Ruin is what allows for a Feruchemist to loose(store) the attribute, and Preservation gives it back. It uses both shards equally. I just think that surging doesn't create a power loss just because Ruin thinks it should. Even while surging Feruchemy still is end-neutral; it's just that some of the power is used for something other than powering up the user.

[Windrunner]

I didn't say that Ruin "wants" Feruchemy to lose power when an attribute is overdrawn. I said I think it's similar to Hemalurgic decay, because any magic system Ruin is involved in is subject to some sort of power loss.

[Vortaan]

I didn't say that Ruin "wants" Feruchemy to lose power when an attribute is overdrawn. I said I think it's similar to Hemalurgic decay, because any magic system Ruin is involved in is subject to some sort of power loss.

By that logic, the fact that you are using Preservation as well should result in a power gain. It should in theory cancel itself out.

[Windrunner]

By that logic, the fact that you are using Preservation as well should result in a power gain. It should in theory cancel itself out.

No my theory is that they are both responsible for a separate half of the power of Feruchemy. Preservation's involvement is just in the first part, the actual storage of metalminds. No power gain is involved. Ruin is responsible for the other half, the "Ruining" of the the power through use. The more you take out at one part the more is Ruined. If my theory was that both Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the tapping part, then I would agree with your logic on them canceling out.

[Aradel]

No my theory is that they are both responsible for a separate half of the power of Feruchemy. Preservation's involvement is just in the first part, the actual storage of metalminds. No power gain is involved. Ruin is responsible for the other half, the "Ruining" of the the power through use. The more you take out at one part the more is Ruined. If my theory was that both Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the tapping part, then I would agree with your logic on them canceling out.

Actually I'd thought that ruin was responsible for the storing part, ruining one of the past self's attributes. Preservation then intercedes, and preserves that person by giving an equal amount to the future self, with some energy lost when more points of time are drawn from.

[Windrunner]

I guess that could work as well. I don't understand why they would call it storing if the power is destroyed but I suppose they could be wrong. I don't understand what you mean though by more points of time. When you tap slowly you're still using power from different points in time, so that doesn't explain why power is lost when more is used. But my theory doesn't say why that is either

[Vortaan]

No my theory is that they are both responsible for a separate half of the power of Feruchemy. Preservation's involvement is just in the first part, the actual storage of metalminds. No power gain is involved. Ruin is responsible for the other half, the "Ruining" of the the power through use. The more you take out at one part the more is Ruined. If my theory was that both Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the tapping part, then I would agree with your logic on them canceling out.

I still don't see where if it's half and half there is a gain. If Preservation does any half of it, there should be a gain.

[Aradel]

I still don't see where if it's half and half there is a gain. If Preservation does any half of it, there should be a gain.

If that was true the same would be true of Ruin, if Ruin does any half of it, there should be a loss. But the point is that they do it together. when Sazed combined the shards into himself, he became Harmony. Harmonious would be the best description for Feruchemy since it was made of equal parts of both shards.

The only reason there is a diminishing return while surging is because the user's innate power of feruchemy is strained to pull in that much of an attribute, and some of the attribute is eaten away to compensate.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[Vortaan]

If that was true the same would be true of Ruin, if Ruin does any half of it, there should be a loss. But the point is that they do it together. when Sazed combined the shards into himself, he became Harmony. Harmonious would be the best description for Feruchemy since it was made of equal parts of both shards.

The only reason there is a diminishing return while surging is because the user's innate power of feruchemy is strained to pull in that much of an attribute, and some of the attribute is eaten away to compensate.

And I don't disagree with that theory. I do disagree that Ruin being involved at all in Feruchemy creates the loss. It makes sense, but only if there's a gain somewhere from Preservation. Since there ends up being no gain, I don't really think that Ruin's mere presence is the reason why there's a drain in surging.

[Commander Spoonface]

Maybe because of the opposing nature of Preservation and Ruin, Feruchemy is of both shards but displays the attributes of neither. Ergo, nothing lost, nothing gained.

Another theory on why surging takes a little extra of the attribute is this: because Feruchemy is basically human attributes with the time of use changed, it takes less energy to tap the energy at the same rate it was stored. As the rate increases, however, some power is lost. This is usually so small it's unnoticeable, but when a massive amount of an attribute is tapped all at once, i.e. surging, it is possible to notice the lost power.

[Aradel]

Maybe because of the opposing nature of Preservation and Ruin, Feruchemy is of both shards but displays the attributes of neither. Ergo, nothing lost, nothing gained.

Another theory on why surging takes a little extra of the attribute is this: because Feruchemy is basically human attributes with the time of use changed, it takes less energy to tap the energy at the same rate it was stored. As the rate increases, however, some power is lost. This is usually so small it's unnoticeable, but when a massive amount of an attribute is tapped all at once, i.e. surging, it is possible to notice the lost power.

That's kind of exactly what I said.

[Aiken Frost]

Vortaan, I believe you are wrong in this one. Preservation does not imply a gain of power by any interpretation of the word.

[Vortaan]

Vortaan, I believe you are wrong in this one. Preservation does not imply a gain of power by any interpretation of the word.

Except that his magic system directly gives gains, thus preserving the resources of the person using them. No power comes from the Allomancer, it all comes from the metals.

[Windrunner]

Except that his magic system directly gives gains, thus preserving the resources of the person using them. No power comes from the Allomancer, it all comes from the metals.

This is why I was trying to explain that I think they have separate functions in Feruchemy. Not really interacting, just working on two separate halves of the power. Preservation's function of storing power in my theory is different from Ruin's function of moving power, so I don't think Preservation necessarily had to bring that power gain with him. Anyway I don't quite agree that moving more power through time is what causes the loss. It seems weird to me that weight. or warmth or something could be used to make other power move through time. Does it strike anyone as weird that Sazed didn't seem to suffer from any loss when he dumped his copperminds into his brain in the end of HOA?

I also don't think it makes sense for Ruin to be Ruining the power and Preservation compensating for it by creating more. If he was really Preserving and creating the power that was tapped on the spot, why would any power be lost at all?

[CrazyRioter]

memory storage works rather differently then other feruchemy.

[Vortaan]

This is why I was trying to explain that I think they have separate functions in Feruchemy. Not really interacting, just working on two separate halves of the power. Preservation's function of storing power in my theory is different from Ruin's function of moving power, so I don't think Preservation necessarily had to bring that power gain with him. Anyway I don't quite agree that moving more power through time is what causes the loss. It seems weird to me that weight. or warmth or something could be used to make other power move through time. Does it strike anyone as weird that Sazed didn't seem to suffer from any loss when he dumped his copperminds into his brain in the end of HOA?

I also don't think it makes sense for Ruin to be Ruining the power and Preservation compensating for it by creating more. If he was really Preserving and creating the power that was tapped on the spot, why would any power be lost at all?

You are kind of making my point. If they are both equal partners in creating Feruchemy, it should be end neutral. And since the only time people tend to lose any attribute is by surging, it makes sense that you lose a little bit by accessing it all at once. I think maybe what you need to think of is that when stored, an attribute can be thought of as energy. When you try to dump more energy than your body can normally handle, it results in loss simply due to your limitations, not any inherent lack in the magic system.

As for Sazed and his copperminds, remember that he had at least some of the power of Harmony at that point. He could have instinctively Preserved his knowledge to prevent degradation.

Edited for spelling

Edited January 2, 2012 by Vortaan

[Windrunner]

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I'm saying that Preservation and Ruin have different functions within the power, so they aren't opposing and balancing each other out. If I thought they both did storage or both did tapping, I would agree that they would oppose each other. But they have different functions in my theory. They are doing different things which means they shouldn't really be bound by the same rules. They don't even have to work in the same way as Allomancy and Hemalurgy. Just because Preservation brings an energy gain in Allomancy, doesn't mean it has to in Feruchemy. I think if power gain comes in at all during Feruchemy it would be involved in compounding.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Windrunner

[Vortaan]

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I'm saying that Preservation and Ruin have different functions within the power, so they aren't opposing and balancing each other out. If I thought they both did storage or both did tapping, I would agree that they would oppose each other. But they have different functions in my theory. They are doing different things which means they shouldn't really be bound by the same rules. They don't even have to work in the same way as Allomancy and Hemalurgy. Just because Preservation brings an energy gain in Allomancy, doesn't mean it has to in Feruchemy. I think if power gain comes in at all during Feruchemy it would be involved in compounding.

The advantage compounding brings is an Allomantic gain, really, not a Feruchemical one. You are making a new Allomantic metal, and since the energy comes from Preservation, not yourself, there is a gain. I understand what you mean, but the entire nature of Preservation is to preserve people. How does storing an attribute preserve the Feruchemist? You actually end up weaker then you would be.

[Eric]

The advantage compounding brings is an Allomantic gain, really, not a Feruchemical one. You are making a new Allomantic metal, and since the energy comes from Preservation, not yourself, there is a gain. I understand what you mean, but the entire nature of Preservation is to preserve people. How does storing an attribute preserve the Feruchemist? You actually end up weaker then you would be.

...when convenient for you to be so, in exchange for being stronger when it is convenient for you to be so. That's Preservation all over.

[Vortaan]

...when convenient for you to be so, in exchange for being stronger when it is convenient for you to be so. That's Preservation all over.

Except it doesn't Preserve anything. You're using your own strength both times, nothing is being Preserved. As opposed to Allomancy, where your own energy is Preserved, and the energy comes from the metals/Preservation.

[Windrunner]

Well your attributes are being Preserved, just to be used at a later time. That's why Ruin is essential, without it there would be no tapping of power, you would just be preserving energy in your metalminds.

[Vortaan]

Well your attributes are being Preserved, just to be used at a later time. That's why Ruin is essential, without it there would be no tapping of power, you would just be preserving energy in your metalminds.

In which case there'd be no Preservation. You'd just lose the attribute. It seems like the Preservation aspect comes from the tapping, not the storing.