Spike Storage

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Usually, when I start a thread, I get all high school essay, and try to build a narrative leading up to a thesis, but this one's pretty straightforward: we know that a Hemalurgic Spike loses power over time if it's outside someone's body. And reusing it from one person's Spiritweb to another causes some loss, as well. What about sticking it in someone's body, but not at a bind point? Does it still lose power? More or less than other methods?

I doubt that anyone knows for sure, but it seems worthy of discussion. My guess is that this would be the way of transporting a spike with the least (but probably still not zero) loss of energy.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Vortaan]

Seems like you would be taking your chances. Without a good knowledge of Hemalurgy, you may well actually create something awful that you can't control. That said, you probably would have less leakage than outside a body... but why wouldn't Marsh just have stored the spike he used on Penrod in his own body for awhile?

[CrazyRioter]

cause in that case he didn't care about the leakage, the point was just to get a spike in Penrod to give Ruin the ability to influence him, not to give him a power.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Exactly. Marsh's inner monologue specifically states that he's not taking any effort at all to preserve (if you will pardon the word) the power. All they want is a way to influence lord Penrod.

This results in a situation where we have never seen someone who (a) knows anything about Hemalurgy and ( cares about keeping the power in the spike have to transport one any further than from heart to chest. Hence, this theory.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Vortaan]

Exactly. Marsh's inner monologue specifically states that he's not taking any effort at all to preserve (if you will pardon the word) the power. All they want is a way to influence lord Penrod.

This results in a situation where we have never seen someone who (a) knows anything about Hemalurgy and ( cares about keeping the power in the spike have to transport one any further than from heart to chest. Hence, this theory.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Looking back, Marsh killed a Smoker to make that spike. Were it something that could have served Ruin better, like a Rioter for example, we might have a good answer to your question.

That said, let's say Frank makes a spike out of Pewterarm Jim. He then places in himself, not on a bind point, immediately. Frank waits a week, then uses the spike on Steelrunner Luke to make a superfast, superstrong mega killer. Does some of Frank's Spirit web end up in Luke, or is it all Jim? If Frank was also a Steelrunner, could Luke use his storages?

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Well, we know that one. If you don't hit a bind point, you don't steal anything. The effects of reusing the same spike on the Bind Points of multiple people are... less understood, but not quite the focus of the question.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. We do know the reusing Koloss spikes resulted in more human Koloss, though, so it seems that one spike can accrue bits of several Spiritwebs.

[Eric]

Not necessarily. It could also be that the leaking power keeps it from affecting their minds as strongly. As to the main topic, I'm really not sure...

[Musicspren]

Remember, if you put a spike in yourself without it being at a hemalurgic bind point, it's just a piece of metal in your body. If that's a earring, it's not a problem. If it's a full-sized spike in your liver (and if that's not a bind point), then it's the same as a big piece of metal lodged in your liver. Meaning you will die rather quickly. The spike can substitute for organs (an brains) only if it has a hemalurgic charge and is at the proper bind point. So to preserve the charge in a spike, you would need to do so in such a way that you weren't killed in the process.

[Satsuoni]

Remember, if you put a spike in yourself without it being at a hemalurgic bind point, it's just a piece of metal in your body. If that's a earring, it's not a problem. If it's a full-sized spike in your liver (and if that's not a bind point), then it's the same as a big piece of metal lodged in your liver. Meaning you will die rather quickly. The spike can substitute for organs (an brains) only if it has a hemalurgic charge and is at the proper bind point. So to preserve the charge in a spike, you would need to do so in such a way that you weren't killed in the process.

Are you sure about that? Zane and Penrod were spiked near or into heart, AFAIK. SO is heart an universal bind point, then? I kind of thought that the position does not really matter for replacement effect, only for power effect.

Also, I don't think simply piercing somebody without killing is a way to get a charge on a spike. Maybe only for very specific points, like nerve clusters, or something.

P.S. I wonder if anybody has noticed that bullets (steel-coated or aluminum) become spikes when they kill somebody...

Also, a related question: a spike can carry several powers, yet gives only one. If after retrieving spike somebody were to use it on another bind point, will it work? Or will the unused power continue to decay?

[Vortaan]

Well, we know that one. If you don't hit a bind point, you don't steal anything. The effects of reusing the same spike on the Bind Points of multiple people are... less understood, but not quite the focus of the question.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. We do know the reusing Koloss spikes resulted in more human Koloss, though, so it seems that one spike can accrue bits of several Spiritwebs.

So placing a spike someone not in a bind point doesn't steal any of their Spiritweb? In that case, I'm going to say that it doesn't stop the leakage of power. I think that the reason the power stops leaking away is that when you use the spike on a new Spiritweb, that person's Spiritweb takes over powering the spike, since the spike effectively becomes part of them.

[Eric]

Are you sure about that? Zane and Penrod were spiked near or into heart, AFAIK. SO is heart an universal bind point, then? I kind of thought that the position does not really matter for replacement effect, only for power effect.

The heart isn't so small that two people being spiked in it would necessitate it being universal. There may simply be several bind points on the heart. Four chambers suggest at least four potential bind points, even if you can't use them all at once.

Also, I don't think simply piercing somebody without killing is a way to get a charge on a spike. Maybe only for very specific points, like nerve clusters, or something.

It has been confirmed to work, but it's not pretty for the survivor.

P.S. I wonder if anybody has noticed that bullets (steel-coated or aluminum) become spikes when they kill somebody...

Through the heart, anyway. It's entirely possible, but there's the problem with it deforming. You'll need to work it to get it back into piercing form.

Also, a related question: a spike can carry several powers, yet gives only one. If after retrieving spike somebody were to use it on another bind point, will it work? Or will the unused power continue to decay?

I think the unused power will only decay while the spike is outside the body. Even if the place where it attaches to your Spiritweb isn't proper for that power, it's still attached.

Which I guess means I think that stabbing yourself anywhere (or perhaps any bind point) will prevent the decay. Huh. Hadn't considered it at all.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Eric

[Satsuoni]

It has been confirmed to work, but it's not pretty for the survivor.

Through the heart, anyway. It's entirely possible, but there's the problem with it deforming. You'll need to work it to get it back into piercing form.

Can you give me a quote, please? I remember confirmation that you can use Hemalurgy without killing, but not the mechanism of such transfer.

Also, wouldn't the spike work even when deformed? This begs a question what exactly does "pierced" mean, though. Since contact with blood is not necessary (earring), could you just hold the spike ? Probably not ...

[Eric]

Can you give me a quote, please? I remember confirmation that you can use Hemalurgy without killing, but not the mechanism of such transfer.

Last Mistborn-specific question answered on the Ultimate List of Questions for Brandon thread: "Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die? Status- Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwords though."

Also, wouldn't the spike work even when deformed? This begs a question what exactly does "pierced" mean, though. Since contact with blood is not necessary (earring), could you just hold the spike ? Probably not ...

It would work when deformed, it would just be difficult to pierce someone with it without working the metal into a shape that would pierce the bind point properly again. It does not work when held, since it has to attach bits to your soul, which is presumably attached to your body.

[Satsuoni]

Last Mistborn-specific question answered on the Ultimate List of Questions for Brandon thread: "Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die? Status- Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwords though."

Yes, that is as I remeber. But where are the binding points, etc mentioned? I don't think simply being wounded by metal is enough.. I mean, when the ears (bind points) are pierced for earring (with metallic device) the soul stays in place... In case of killing the soul is detached anyways, but how to detach part of it without killing...

It would work when deformed, it would just be difficult to pierce someone with it without working the metal into a shape that would pierce the bind point properly again. It does not work when held, since it has to attach bits to your soul, which is presumably attached to your body.

Yet what constitutes "inside"? The blood flow around the metal? Somehow, this conjures the image of magnetic cores for me.

[ReaderAt2046]

Marsh says when he spikes Penrod that there always has to be blood when you first implant someone with a spike, though not necessarily afterwards.

[Eric]

Yes, that is as I remember. But where are the binding points, etc mentioned? I don't think simply being wounded by metal is enough.. I mean, when the ears (bind points) are pierced for earring (with metallic device) the soul stays in place... In case of killing the soul is detached anyways, but how to detach part of it without killing...

As far as what point is used when someone survives it? Simple: the heart. Stabbing the heart is not 100% fatal.

Yet what constitutes "inside"? The blood flow around the metal? Somehow, this conjures the image of magnetic cores for me.

*shrug* Dunno. We know there needs to be blood at first, that's about it.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Hemalurgy is taken from blood, blood must interact with metal, what if in stead, uses blood transfusions, or a metalic arts dialysis, take metals out of blood.

INstead of spikes, needles.

ALso, different locations on the body receive different energies.

aqupucture may be something to experiment with.

[Commander Spoonface]

A question: has it ever been confirmed there are points on the body that do not serve as bind points? I see two options that could explain that:

1) Bind points are relatively large/there are many of them, so they cover the entire body.

2) Bind points are smaller, but cover the body in such a way that you would need an impossibly thin spike to avoid piercing at least one.

[Eric]

A question: has it ever been confirmed there are points on the body that do not serve as bind points?

I see two options that could explain that:

1) Bind points are relatively large/there are many of them, so they cover the entire body.

2) Bind points are smaller, but cover the body in such a way that you would need an impossibly thin spike to avoid piercing at least one.

There is confirmation that there is a finite number of bind points, and a secondary indication that specific organs must be pierced.

Hero of Ages, page 372: "There were some two or three hundred bind points across a human's body. Marsh didn't know them all; Ruin would guide his hand when the time came to strike, making sure the spike was delivered to the right place." If it were difficult to miss any bind point, it would reasonably require far less direct control from Ruin to have the Inquisitor's spike properly mid-combat. Therefore, I don't think they cover the entire body, or even the majority of it.

Mistborn Adventure Game, page 289: "Hemalurgic spikes must penetrate vital organs such as the eyes, heart, or another vital area to transfer their power..." This is the secondary indication, as the game isn't itself canon. However, it does fit with what we've seen for the most part (eyes are not a vital organ, nor are ears, but if we assume that the mistake is in the way the word 'vital' is used and not 'organ', then we're still on solid ground).

Speculation: I still support the idea of 256 bind points, in keeping with the law of 16 and Marsh's internal monologue (16^2 = 256, right near the middle of Marsh's estimated range).

[CrazyRioter]

note that you don't just have to hit *a* bind point, you have to hit a *valid* bind point for the spike you are using, which would be difficult on a moving, unwilling target, thus the need for extra guidance.

[Satsuoni]

Not exactly on topic, but does anybody know what happens to the pure metal spike that is changed to alloy (smelting iron with coal, etc) Simply melting spike reduces, but does not remove its power, but alloying it?

[Eric]

note that you don't just have to hit *a* bind point, you have to hit a *valid* bind point for the spike you are using, which would be difficult on a moving, unwilling target, thus the need for extra guidance.

Marsh has a couple Atium spikes, which, if used to kill a full Mistborn or Keeper, would work in more places that not. While not a perfect solution (what with Ruin's desire for the Atium), there was an option that would have averted the need for fine control were the bind points large enough so as to be effectively omnipresent.

Semi-related, is anyone else really glad that Ruin didn't think of sacrificing one of the Inquisitors to melt down the spikes to influence a lot more people the way Harmony did?

Re: Alloying Spikes after the fact: Fascinating thought experiment. I wonder if you could actually alter the power transferred that way, similar to how compounding tricks the system.

EDIT: For completeness's sake, allow me to call out a potential problem with my assertions above. It's entirely possible that certain bind points only allow certain manipulations, but I'm no more certain of this than anything else.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Eric

[CrazyRioter]

atium can steal any power, but you presumably still need to hit the proper bind point on the recipient for the spike to function.

also, I suspect that alloying a spike after the fact would destroy the charge.

[Eric]

Valid point about Atium, if it can steal only one power at a time. However, I'm not sure that's the case.

Consider a Steel spike used to stab a full Mistborn through the heart. What determines which of the Allomantic Physical powers received? Presumably, the bind point it pierces on the recipient, since otherwise there's no way to know until after you pierce someone. Which means it actually steals all the Allomantic Physical powers, but only grants one (further reinforcing the diminishing returns aspect of Hemalurgy).

That said, an Atium spike is a wildcard. One that pierces a full Mistborn, or a full Keeper, could go into the vast majority of the bind points, whether for a power or an attribute, and still function. There's almost no need to aim if the bind points make up the majority of the body; just stab general areas and you'll probably hit a good spot.

That's what makes me think the bind points are relatively small.