Burning Metalminds

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I seem to have stumbled across a small controversy.

When we get descriptions of Compounding, I had always assumed that people set up Metalminds breaking their skin, filled them, then burned them, without any intervening steps. Other people, however, say that they Allomancers cannot burn metal unless it is in their stomachs, and someone Channeling would have to swallow their Metalmind (or a part of it) to begin Channeling, and are probably just filling and tapping like anyone else most of the time.

The data we have outside of the books seem to be these: some years ago, he did say that Allomancers can only burn metals in their belly. More recently, he noted that an Inquisitor could burn their spikes (though it would be painful. Granted, Inquisitors are not human, so whether these statements contradict each other is, again, a matter of interpretation.

The only human Compounder we get to see much detail about is Miles Hundredlives, so I have formed my own interpretation around what we know of him. I am positive Miles was burning for the following reasons:

(1) People talk about removing Miles' metalminds. The obstacle to this that they're all over his body, NOT that even once you remove then, he has however much gold he managed to swallow first.

(2) We Miles' POVs where hours pass between battles, but there is no reference to grinding down and swallowing fresh Metalminds.

(3) There is an immediately observable difference between Miles' healing and Wayne's. Wayne gets injured, and fixing it takes time and clear discomfort. If Miles breaks his leg, the first side hit healed before the crack reaches the other side. Wax and Wayne both talk about how only Compounding could allow that.

(4) Once you start Compounding, it is dangerous to ever stop. Why assume that he did?

Do other people agree? Am I the only one who had assumed Compounders worked this way?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[name_here]

That's how I always assumed it worked.

[Windrunner]

The data we have outside of the books seem to be these: some years ago, he did say that Allomancers can only burn metals in their belly. More recently, he noted that an Inquisitor could burn their spikes (though it would be painful. Granted, Inquisitors are not human, so whether these statements contradict each other is, again, a matter of interpretation.

Do you have a quote for that? I was under the impression that they could burn spikes but only if they took them out of their body and actually shaved them and swallowed them. Since Brandon has made a big deal out of how he wants metals to be used like we metabolize food I don't think you can burn just any metal piercing the body. It has to be in the stomach. I also remember reading that burning would be painful because the burner would actually be grafting the sDNA of the the person who was spiked to their own. The pain would end up rendering them unconscious, If you want me to actually find the quotes I'll check the Brandonothology.

(2) We Miles' POVs where hours pass between battles, but there is no reference to grinding down and swallowing fresh Metalminds.

I'm certain he does though. This is how compounding works, the only reason Brandon didn't actually show him burning goldminds is probably because it's implied, the magic is explained well enough that we don't actually have to see him do it in order to understand whats happening.

(4) Once you start Compounding, it is dangerous to ever stop. Why assume that he did?

Why is it dangerous to stop? The only compounding I see being dangerous to stop is age, because if you were old enough you would die without it. If he stopped tapping gold he wouldn't become sickly or anything, he would just go back to having the health of a normal person (maybe with a bit of decreased immunity because he wasn't used to being sick). I don't think Miles had to be constantly tapping gold, it was more along the lines of an addiction. He was so addicted to not being able to get sick, or have headaches, or feel pain, that he was mentally dependent on the goldminds, but not physically.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Do you have a quote for that?

I didn't have a quote for Inquisitors being able to burn their own spikes - I had simply heard it was in the Brandonthology. Now, I have done some digging, and here's what I know about spike-burning:

Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one?

Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power... Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.

17th Shard: Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon: (sighs) I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard: Would they be able to tap?

Brandon: Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person’s that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

That last thing is in reference to burning other people's spikes, but I added it here for completeness.

Anyway. Inquisitors no longer have human physiology, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything about humans directly. But Inquisitors can burn their own spikes.

Why is it dangerous to stop? The only compounding I see being dangerous to stop is age, because if you were old enough you would die without it.

Wax muses that, from what he's heard, once you start compounding, it is dangerous to stop. If nobody else knows the page, I can look it up tomorrow.

But, if you agree that you'd have to keep on Compounding age constantly, doesn't that mean that the Lord Ruler, at least, was burning his implanted Metalminds? He fell apart immediately once they were off, and if he were burning a separate reserve within his body, that would not have happened.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Thor]

I didn't have a quote for Inquisitors being able to burn their own spikes - I had simply heard it was in the Brandonthology. Now, I have done some digging, and here's what I know about spike-burning:

That last thing is in reference to burning other people's spikes, but I added it here for completeness.

Anyway. Inquisitors no longer have human physiology, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything about humans directly. But Inquisitors can burn their own spikes.

Wax muses that, from what he's heard, once you start compounding, it is dangerous to stop. If nobody else knows the page, I can look it up tomorrow.

But, if you agree that you'd have to keep on Compounding age constantly, doesn't that mean that the Lord Ruler, at least, was burning his implanted Metalminds? He fell apart immediately once they were off, and if he were burning a separate reserve within his body, that would not have happened.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

For TLR I think we can rule out burning metal that pierces his body. His Atium bracers are confirmed to be Hemalurgic, so burning them would cause...issues, as has been mentioned.

When talking about the "Once you start compounding, it is dangerous to stop..." line, it is important to remember that you don't need to be compounding continually to get ridiculous amounts of an attribute. Miles stores a LOT of health in his ~30 metalminds and they pierce his body for combat reasons. He would only need to refill his metalminds every few days by burning a small metalmind, then he would be good to go for a few more days. The dangerous part of not compounding is that you won't be able to keep up your continuous tapping. Your metalminds will run out because you cannot "cheat the system" and tap more than you store, which may cause problems similar to Allomantic Savants. Here is an idea I had with regards to Double Golds specifically:

I'm not sure. Either of those sounds logical...I think that his body would lack the ability to heal naturally, since his body would start removing the "superfluous" biological functions, similar to an astronaut's body cannibalizing its muscle and losing bone density because the body doesn't need a lot of muscle mass or strong bones to move in space. In Miles case, the superfluous functions would be those that related to healing: platelets, immune system, cell regeneration, etc. I can see why he would be afraid to stop tapping Health, even for a short time.

[Windrunner]

Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one?

Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power... Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.

17th Shard: Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon: (sighs) I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard: Would they be able to tap?

Brandon: Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person’s that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Thanks for this! I searched but I couldn't locate it anywhere. I think that the first things to notice here are some obvious contradictions, how could an Inquisitor burn a spike, if they had to have been killed by it in order to access its power? Brandon obviously changed his mind here on what he wanted to do with spike burning, which throws everything said here into question. I think we are interpreting this quote differently, you see Inquisitors burning eye spikes, while they are in their head, I see them removing a spike from their eye, and then burning it. I can't tell from the question which they meant. But one thing to notice is that when Vin has her earring in, she never feels an extra store of bronze in her reserves, even when she is completely out of metals in the Lord Ruler's or Yomen's dungeons. If she was able to burn that spike she would have felt it.

But, if you agree that you'd have to keep on Compounding age constantly, doesn't that mean that the Lord Ruler, at least, was burning his implanted Metalminds? He fell apart immediately once they were off, and if he were burning a separate reserve within his body, that would not have happened.

Sorry about this, I wasn't very clear. I meant not compounding ever again, so I obviously wasn't paying attention. I don't think he was burning these atiumminds, they were already filled with age from when he had previously burned other the atiumminds that he had stored age in while in his secret sanctum. You are however right in saying that he wasn't compounding while Vin was killing him, just tapping massive amounts of age.

I'm not sure. Either of those sounds logical...I think that his body would lack the ability to heal naturally, since his body would start removing the "superfluous" biological functions, similar to an astronaut's body cannibalizing its muscle and losing bone density because the body doesn't need a lot of muscle mass or strong bones to move in space. In Miles case, the superfluous functions would be those that related to healing: platelets, immune system, cell regeneration, etc. I can see why he would be afraid to stop tapping Health, even for a short time.

I think you are probably right on here, I think this is what is so dangerous about compounding, if Miles ran out of gold he would be screwed. I totally forgot that stopping compounding could be dangerous, although for some things, like weight, body heat or maybe some of the cognitive or temporal attributes, it really wouldn't matter.

[Thor]

<snip>

I think you are probably right on here, I think this is what is so dangerous about compounding, if Miles ran out of gold he would be screwed. I totally forgot that stopping compounding could be dangerous, although for some things, like weight, body heat or maybe some of the cognitive or temporal attributes, it really wouldn't matter.

Actually those have similar problems. Weight, if you are always storing some to make you lighter, will give the same problem as astronauts, albeit not as bad. If you are always tapping heat (if it actually increases the temperature of your body) you might head straight into hypothermia because your body isn't used to producing heat to warm up your body. The temporal ones would be weird. With Cadmium one might not breathe without mental commands from the brain, instead of as a reflex. With Bendalloy one cannot digest. Electrum would give a super depression. Don't know about the Enhancement metals though.

[Windrunner]

Actually those have similar problems. Weight, if you are always storing some to make you lighter, will give the same problem as astronauts, albeit not as bad. If you are always tapping heat (if it actually increases the temperature of your body) you might head straight into hypothermia because your body isn't used to producing heat to warm up your body. The temporal ones would be weird. With Cadmium one might not breathe without mental commands from the brain, instead of as a reflex. With Bendalloy one cannot digest. Electrum would give a super depression. Don't know about the Enhancement metals though.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. You can't compound traits that you're storing, so all you have to use is regular storing. I doubt that anyone goes around at anything less then half their weight, because like Wax says, if you don't weigh much it gets hard to move around. Also with heat, I'm pretty sure that a lot of that comes from chemical reactions that go on inside your body. Just because you've stopped compounding heat, doesn't mean that your body stops living, and so those chemical reactions give you heat. I don't think that's something that can turn off. Storing breath, I'm kind of on the fence about this one. Just because you don't need air would that shut off your body's subconscious impulse to breathe? I'm sure that you could hold you're breath consciously but I don't think that would stop you're body from continuing to naturally breathe when you are able. Similar points for determination, would your mind stop whatever chemical reactions give the mind determination? Maybe, I think this is more likely then your body forgetting that it needs to breathe.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying now, Winrunner - you're saying that Compounding is mostly about short bursts of burning metalminds and storing it, so that you're almost always drawing upon absurdly full minds rather than doing the full cycle all the time.

That makes sense to me as a process, I suppose (Miles does note that he draws upon his Goldminds all the time, but does not specify burning them), but I don't understand why the Lord Ruler would have impaled his Atium Minds into his arms (thereby leaving himself open to Ruin's influence, or at least to Soothing, since he must have known about that weakness), rather than just having a bunch of small ones hidden among s jewelry in different places so that nobody could remove them all from him at once.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[CrazyRioter]

He was also using hemalurgy to pull off some of the really crazy stuff he did, according to Brandon, so yeah, he did it for the power boost. which was kind of dumb, but there you go.

[Wispsy]

i dont think tlr could be controlled simply by someone soothing him. also, he had copper right, wouldnt that protect him from emotional allomancy, therefore from any other allomancers trying to control him?

[Vikachu]

but I don't understand why the Lord Ruler would have impaled his Atium Minds into his arms (thereby leaving himself open to Ruin's influence, or at least to Soothing, since he must have known about that weakness), rather than just having a bunch of small ones hidden among s jewelry in different places so that nobody could remove them all from him at once.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I had assumed this was Sanderson's subtle way of showing how much Ruin had gotten to TLR at that point; thousands of years of Ruin wheedling away at him probably ended up with Ruin convincing him to spike himself for TEH POWAH, despite leaving him open to the influence.

Alternatively, it's not the strength of the spike that matters, but the number. In which case TLR was being cautious.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

But how was Ruin wheedling at Rashek, if Rashek had not been spiked in the first place?

[happyman]

But how was Ruin wheedling at Rashek, if Rashek had not been spiked in the first place?

Given that TLR was Preservation's champion (no idea if he was an official Champion, but he was a champion), I'm guessing that Ruin made wheedling him a high priority. If Ruin had to spend most of his energy reaching a single unspiked person (and given the powers involved, why shouldn't it be possible?), it would be TLR.

[Eric]

Plus, didn't Brandon say Rashek was going crazy even early on, and Ruin can affect crazy people? *checks the Brandonothology* Ah, yes he did.

2) What happened to Kwaan? I was half expecting to see him amongst the kandra First Generation.

2) Kwaan went into hiding, and he was eventually discovered and executed by Rashek.  He wasn't among the First Generation, though he would have been if he hadn't turned against Rashek.  Rashek kept the plate, however, just as he kept Alendi's logbook.  Partially because even then, Rashek was going a little mad, but partially because of the reminders about his old life they contained.

...

2) Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?

2)  She was crazy enough on her own.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I missed that - thanks!

[Aiken Frost]

Plus, didn't Brandon say Rashek was going crazy even early on, and Ruin can affect crazy people? *checks the Brandonothology* Ah, yes he did.

<snip>

He said that both of them was more than a bit insane, but I don't believe anything there implied that Ruin was capable of influencing crazy people.

[Eric]

He said that both of them was more than a bit insane, but I don't believe anything there implied that Ruin was capable of influencing crazy people.

The wording of the question implied it: "Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?" It's possible that Brandon meant that she was crazy enough to stumble upon hemalurgy completely unaided by Ruin and spike the one person he absolutely needed influence over in the exact fashion he needed, but I find it unlikely from a story perspective.

[Aiken Frost]

The wording of the question implied it: "Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?" It's possible that Brandon meant that she was crazy enough to stumble upon hemalurgy completely unaided by Ruin and spike the one person he absolutely needed influence over in the exact fashion he needed, but I find it unlikely from a story perspective.

I prefer to see the quote this way:

"Did Vin's mother actually have a spike, or was she so crazy that one wasn't necessary for Ruin to influence her?"

To what Sanderson's answer was: "She was crazy enough on her own."

I don't think it strains credibility in the story anymore than two gods having a era-long Xanatos Warfare. I am only now starting to reread Mistborn and I can be completely wrong and have being so lots of times, but I do believe that Vin, in Ruin's eyes, is just an opportunity pawn and was not strictly necessary in the long run.

I think it is a better alternative, actually. If Vin's mother was actually being manipulated by Ruin, I think the plot loses a bit of awesomeness.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

That seems like a long shot, Aiken. You really think that Vin's mother was just a random crazy person who happened, by chance, to take the right metal, and then hit the right Bind Point, to steal one of her daughters' Seeker abilities, and then hit the right point to give said ability to her Mistborn daughter, by pure random chance?

[Aiken Frost]

That seems like a long shot, Aiken. You really think that Vin's mother was just a random crazy person who happened, by chance, to take the right metal, and then hit the right Bind Point, to steal one of her daughters' Seeker abilities, and then hit the right point to give said ability to her Mistborn daughter, by pure random chance?

Well, when you put it that way...

But yeah, I think it can happen. Over a thousand years, "random" can happen quite easily.

BUT! Here is when I start to disagree with myself: I'm starting to recall that there IS information that insane people is actually susceptible to Ruin's influence. Guess I was wrong the whole time.

[happyman]

Well, when you put it that way...

But yeah, I think it can happen. Over a thousand years, "random" can happen quite easily.

BUT! Here is when I start to disagree with myself: I'm starting to recall that there IS information that insane people is actually susceptible to Ruin's influence. Guess I was wrong the whole time.

IIRC, Sazed outlines the whole thing in the Chapter bumps in MB3, including (among other things) explaining exactly why Ruin chose Vin to get spiked. Rereading those bumps is a great way to review what we know of the Metallic Arts, Ruin and Preservation.