Seekers and Investiture

[Comatose]

So, Chaos asked Brandon if a seeker burning bronze could sense a feruchemist. Brandon's answer, as I understood it was yes, on the condition that they trained and knew what they were doing/what to look for.

Now, here's the things. From the Ars Arcanum, we know all three magic systems are instances of investiture (whatever that is). We also know that Vin had to be a (powerful) seeker in order to sense the pulses of the well of ascension (initially).

So, me and KChan were talking, and were thinking it would make sense if what Seekers are really sensing when they hear allomantic pulses is investiture. So far, they've only sensed allomantic pulses because that's all they've been trained to look for.

If Seekers really do sense investiture, that could mean that, with proper training and instruction, a world-hopping bronze burner could sense the use of other cosmere magic systems.

[KChan]

There's also the possibility that Allomancy is easiest to sense because the ability being used is, well, Allomantic. We also know from Brandon's answer that it's not so simple as merely burning bronze and hoping you'll catch a Feruchemist; otherwise, the Inquisitors would have done it. But it is possible, at least theoretically. I didn't think to ask Brandon if anyone has ever done it before.

This is definitely something I'd like to see explored. Could a Seeker on Sel learn to sense someone channeling the Dor, or go to Roshar and sense Surgebinding? That sure would be useful. In fact, maybe that's one of the things the writer of the Ars Arcanum was alluding to when s/he wrote that Hemalurgy was of particular interest...

[Soother]

We also know that Vin had to be a (powerful) seeker in order to sense the pulses of the well of ascension (initially).

I don't remember where the reveal is in the series, but we do know that the earing is a hemalurgic spike imbued with a seeker's (her sister) power. I don't remember if it is implied she is naturally better with Bronze, or it is just because of the spike.

I would imagine that with feruchemy it might be harder to determine what type of metalmind they were tapping (could they also then sense them filling their metalminds then?) because there is such a greater range of rate of consumption for feruchemy than allomancy, due to the fact that the rate of tapping/storing the quality is much more variable than that for allomancy (I hope that made sense).

[Wispsy]

they can also sense the presence of shards right? teh spirits?

[Thor]

I don't remember where the reveal is in the series, but we do know that the earing is a hemalurgic spike imbued with a seeker's (her sister) power. I don't remember if it is implied she is naturally better with Bronze, or it is just because of the spike.

I would imagine that with feruchemy it might be harder to determine what type of metalmind they were tapping (could they also then sense them filling their metalminds then?) because there is such a greater range of rate of consumption for feruchemy than allomancy, due to the fact that the rate of tapping/storing the quality is much more variable than that for allomancy (I hope that made sense).

So if a Feruchemist was tapping and/or storing an attribute (and you knew what you were looking for) you could sense them and the faster the tapping and/or storing the easier it would be to sense? And if they weren't tappinp/storing you couldn't sense them (ala an Allomancer not burning any metal cannot be sensed by a Seeker.)

they can also sense the presence of shards right? teh spirits?

On some level, yes, though you may need to be very strong and/or have a connection to the Shard itself to do so. Vin had a connection to both Preservation and Ruin through the mists (being chosen by Preservation to take over) and the Hemalugic spike and was able to sense the Well, Preservation, and Ruin with Bronze. Alendi could sense the Well and (if I remember correctly) Preservation (as the mist spirit) with Bronze (he was a Seeker) though I don't know if it is ever mentioned that he was spiked (or if he was strong enough on his own to sense it.)

Edited November 10, 2011 by Thor

[Aradel]

Alendi could sense the Well and (if I remember correctly) Preservation (as the mist spirit) with Bronze (he was a Seeker) though I don't know if it is ever mentioned that he was spiked (or if he was strong enough on his own to sense it.)

If I'm remembering correctly, one of the chapter headings in the first book alluded to him wearing some kind of ceremonial piercings because the Worldbringers thought he was the Hero of Ages. Anyone have a page number?

[Comatose]

I don't remember the page number but the quote says Rashek thought Alendi wore the piercings of the hero unjustly. As for Vin's spike that's what I was referring to when I said she was more powerful because the earring increased her power with bronze.

Also, Marsh says with training a seeker can tell things like when a person is flaring, what emotions a soother or rioter is influencing and how low a person's metals are running. Based on this I don't think a main difference between allomancy and feruchemy would be rate of consumption.

[Wispsy]

marsh was most probably a savant tho which i guess increased his strength or sensitivity to it, so power would most likely be an issue with it ye

[Comatose]

Well we're never told that specifically but we are told many seekers become savants without knowing it so it can't be that difficult to become one. At least not compared to becoming a savant in other things.

I'm not convinced pre inquisitor Marsh was a seeker (EDIT: savant *facepalm) but whether he is or not doesn't really affect the argument. Whether a seeker needs to be a savant or not to do these things doesn't change the fact that learning them is possible.

[KChan]

He definitely was; he was the one who taught Vin how to use bronze.

And agreed - savanthood and spikes are for the most part, irrelevant, unless we're guessing how it's done. Even then, even Inquisitors couldn't sense Feruchemists. I'm willing to bet it has more to do with knowledge of what one is doing and how one wants to accomplish it than simple raw power.

Also, if bronze can sense other instances of Investiture, it stands to reason that copper can likely conceal it as well.

[Chaos]

On some level, yes, though you may need to be very strong and/or have a connection to the Shard itself to do so. Vin had a connection to both Preservation and Ruin through the mists (being chosen by Preservation to take over) and the Hemalugic spike and was able to sense the Well, Preservation, and Ruin with Bronze. Alendi could sense the Well and (if I remember correctly) Preservation (as the mist spirit) with Bronze (he was a Seeker) though I don't know if it is ever mentioned that he was spiked (or if he was strong enough on his own to sense it.)

I disagree. I went into Hero of Ages and did some research. Vin could definitely sense when Ruin manifest via bronze.

Vin looked up, and there he was. Still wearing Reen's form, Ruin stood in the small cell with her. He maintained a straight-backed posture, standing almost benevolently over her. Vin sat up on her cot. She'd never thought that of all her metals, she would miss bronze so much. When Ruin returned to visit in "person," burning bronze had let her feel him via bronzepulses and gave her warning that he had arrived, even if he didn't appear to her.

That's not entirely surprising when you think about it. Allomancy sends ripples through (presumably) the Spiritual Realm. The specifics aren't important, but Allomancy just focuses a divine power in a very defined way.

Ruin would be extremely obvious to any Seeker nearby. It is just sending a crapton of pulses out by simply existing. It's that divine form, similar to Allomancy, only vaster. But, at the same time, his "bronzepulses" aren't specific. Vin was sort of confused by this when Ruin was acting as a Mistborn. It's not too surprising, considering a Shard could influence a lot more than Allomancy could.

So, I like this theory. I worry about the definition of Investiture, because does this mean a Seeker detects the metalminds by themselves, or Hemalurgic spikes, or just the act of a Feruchemist storing or tapping?

Huh. Now that I think about it, maybe the difficulty of detecting Feruchemy is that the Investiture aren't obvious, like Allomancy. Its the metals which are Invested. So you'd need to try and detect some weird frequency to see the pulses of the Invested metalminds.

Anyways, besides that, I like the general idea.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Maybe Seekers aren't seeing Feruchemists because Feruchemy affects the Spiritual realm differently. Where Allomancy is sent out as pulses, maybe Feruchemy is more of a tone? Which would mesh with Chaos's idea of it being on a weird "frequency".

[Wispsy]

vin was also able to pierce copper clouds too, with a spike that was frequently removed.

normal people burning bronze couldnt sense the well or piece copper clouds, what makes you think they could sense the shard?

[Joe ST]

What I'd like to add is that the other investitures are probably not anything close to as easily sensed as the Preservation ones (maybe?). Also, I suggest that they wouldn't be pulses, probably something completely different.

[Satsuoni]

I disagree. I went into Hero of Ages and did some research. Vin could definitely sense when Ruin manifest via bronze.

That's not entirely surprising when you think about it. Allomancy sends ripples through (presumably) the Spiritual Realm. The specifics aren't important, but Allomancy just focuses a divine power in a very defined way.

Ruin would be extremely obvious to any Seeker nearby. It is just sending a crapton of pulses out by simply existing. It's that divine form, similar to Allomancy, only vaster. But, at the same time, his "bronzepulses" aren't specific. Vin was sort of confused by this when Ruin was acting as a Mistborn. It's not too surprising, considering a Shard could influence a lot more than Allomancy could.

So, I like this theory. I worry about the definition of Investiture, because does this mean a Seeker detects the metalminds by themselves, or Hemalurgic spikes, or just the act of a Feruchemist storing or tapping?

Huh. Now that I think about it, maybe the difficulty of detecting Feruchemy is that the Investiture aren't obvious, like Allomancy. Its the metals which are Invested. So you'd need to try and detect some weird frequency to see the pulses of the Invested metalminds.

Anyways, besides that, I like the general idea.

Um.. It was specifically stated that Ruin (and Preservation) gives off all Allomatic Pulses, including copper, so only those who could pierce copperclouds could sense them, like so:.

Bronze pulses thumped weakly, faint, almost unnoticeable—like someone playing drums very quietly. They were muffled by a coppercloud. The person—whoever it was—thought that their copper would hide them.

She tried to determine the direction of the pulses. Something was . . . odd about them. She had trouble distinguishing the metals her enemy was burning. Was that the quick, beating thump of pewter? Or was it the rhythm of iron? The pulses seemed indistinct, like ripples in a thick mud.

That is, essentially white noise.

Anyway, I think the difference between Allomancy and Feruchemy lies partially in fact that Allomancy is constantly drawing the power of a Shard from outside, creating ripples, like an AC outlet, while in Feruchemy you are charging/tapping your own power, your own part of Shard in your soul, and it works more like DC battery (hard to explain why I feel that way), so the Feruchemist may give of a small pulse when starting (only a single one, so it is very hard to detect), and produce tension, rather than pulsing, while actively using feruchemy. So to detect it you have to feel the difference between normal shard level (near a person, possibly) and and a decreased shrd level caused by shunting power into metal.

A weird theory, but there it is.

[Chaos]

Um.. It was specifically stated that Ruin (and Preservation) gives off all Allomatic Pulses, including copper, so only those who could pierce copperclouds could sense them, like so:.

Well, there you have it. I forgot the specific quote. I went into the annotations and wasn't sure if "Ruin acting as Mistborn" was a specific trick that he used, but my gut was that it happened all the time with him. So, cool.

[Comatose]

I would just like to apologize for my huge brain fart (it's fixed now). I know Marsh is a seeker, what I meant to say is I'm not sure if he is a savant, or that he had to be a savant to do those things.

As for what else has been said, I'm not sure if Ruin and Preservation can mimic specific allomantic pulses. When Vin describes them as bronze pulses, I took that to mean pulses that could be heard by a bronze burner. As for the copper cloud, I think it is a logical thing for Vin to think. She knows she can pierce copper clouds, and these pulses feel fainter than normal. That doesn't mean there is actually a copper cloud hiding them. I think this is more in line with the other times she sense Ruin, Preservation, or the well, when she is unable to pick out which specific metal it sounds like.

I wonder if Preservation and Ruin give off pulses similar to Atium and Lerasium. I don't think we're ever shown a seeker sensing those pulses, and we are never given their pulse length/tempo/etc.

Anyways, specifics aside, my main point is that when Vin is sensing Ruin/Preservation/the well she is not sensing allomancy. Now, I take this to mean she is sensing cases of investiture. When it comes to feruchemy and hemalurgy, I'm not sure what would be required to sense them. Inquisitors give off normal bronze pulses when using allomancy, so I don't know how one would sense hemalurgy without just sensing the powers the hemalurgist is using.

Here's a thought: what if a properly trained seeker could sense a charged metalmind or spike?

The other implication of this theory is how seekers can interact with magic systems on other worlds. If a seeker could detect the use of breath, aons, or stormlight (they can detect how much metal an allomancer has left, perhaps they can do the same for other magic systems), they could be an invaluable member of the 17th shard (especially if a could somehow sense Hoid (Again if trained properly).

That last bit, however, is just my imagination running away from me. Not sure if it's really grounded in anything.

[Chaos]

I reread the part after Vin ascends, and it's pretty clear that Ruin and Preservation speak through vibrations like that. In fact, when Ruin commands KanPaar to tell him where the atium is, Vin heard it all. I stick with my idea that they are like bronze pulses, just far more varied. So instead of a definite set of pulse lengths and intensities, Shards use the whole "spectrum" so to speak.

[KChan]

I stick with my idea that they are like bronze pulses, just far more varied. So instead of a definite set of pulse lengths and intensities, Shards use the whole "spectrum" so to speak.

I agree with this. It makes the most sense, especially given what we've seen of Shards and pulses so far. It just doesn't make sense to start randomly throwing other things in.

[Wispsy]

I can't think of a reasonable reason why marsh wouldn't be a savant xD vin can sense the difference in pulses, but she has been spiked with enough power to pierce copper clouds, and is already very strong. Marsh is surprised by the fact she can do this, because not many can and he took ages of practicing. I possibly think he said he leaves it on alot, or vin should, but I can't be sure on that. He can tell not only the metal but also which emotions are being manipulated, he used it alot....and it really seems like the thing his character would do right? "omg something useful, must be the best I can be in this so I can help other people with it! Train proper and all that!" etc

Also I agree with chaos and kchan about the rest

Edited November 13, 2011 by Wispsy

[Comatose]

I stick with my idea that they are like bronze pulses, just far more varied. So instead of a definite set of pulse lengths and intensities, Shards use the whole "spectrum" so to speak.

I agree too. That's what I was trying to get at. I was just trying to point out that when they say 'bronze pulses' it doesn't necessarily mean Ruin/Preservation 'sound' like they are burning bronze.

[Wispsy]

Didn't vin make out that one of the pulses was actually copper? Saying that at least some where like allomantic pulses?

[Satsuoni]

BTW, from Brandonthology:

3) Lemme guess, the "Mistborn" following Vin was actually Ruin, since Elend never actually saw him, and he disappeared every time Vin got close? 4) Why did Ruin give off Allomantic Pulses? Because Preservation did and they're two sides of the same coin? Allomancy is of Preservation, so I figured that's why he did...

4) Manifestation of the awesome power he held, mixed with Vin's increased ability to sense these things. Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself--the power of creation being used, creating a drum beat to those attuned to it. Ruin created a similar beat when his conciousness was near.

[Chaos]

Aha, that's where I got that idea. Thanks, Satsuoni.

[Comatose]

That's interesting that what the seekers are sensing is "the power of creation" being used. If all three magic systems or instances of investiture, could we work "power of creation" into the definition? Something like: "the power of creation invested in an individual or object (for our friendly sword friends on Nalthis)".

Now, I'm making a leap here, assuming what the seekers are sensing and investiture are the same thing. I don't think it's to big, as what Brandon describes in that quote fits with my conception of what Investiture is.