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Theory: Dragons can Transform Into Human Form


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#1 Guest_Jacob Santos_*

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:56 PM

I would like to espoused my second theory in a more technical sense.

Suppositions

  • Dragons still exist in DragonSteel.
  • Brandon is including the ancient myth that dragons could transform using their magic.
  • Dragons live a long time compared to humans.

Proof

Note that since the books Lair and Dragonsteel are unpublished and not published wide release, respectively, that the current proof may yet be unfounded. Think of it as a math proof, except I'm not providing a counter.

  • Brandon has stated that dragons existed on Dragonsteel.

Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile...
- The Letter


I've been interpreting this as not an insult. The reason is that the writer is addressing the recipient with an intent for something. While parts of the letter do seem like they are for provoking an confrontation, it also seems as if that is also the intent. The writer is stating what could be facts, e.g. the recipient doesn't like the writer, the recipient is displeased with what the writer has been doing.

Ah, but drats. Unpublished works can't be used as proof, I've merely been extrapolating from prior existing works (not written by Brandon) and from a few tidbits contained within the Word of Brandon and parts of in-universe.

However, Brandon has stated that a kingdom is on Dragonsteel[6]. If I'm to interpret that correctly, it would mean a King rules that kingdom. I'm going to suggest that the King is the recipient, which would make the King as a dragon. It would make sense then that Hoid, sorry, the writer, is attempting to convince the King to help as opposed to sending his agents to prevent the writer from interfering.

EDIT Added this section.

Problems

  • The Malazan Book of the Fallen book series, by Steven Erikson already includes this. Oops, spoiler alert! Eh, shouldn't be that bad, I kind of guessed it in the beginning of book one anyway.
  • Brandon might decide to do something different than the other series. Of course, I believe that having dragons transform to humans is a relatively recent literature invention drawing on influences of demons and other creatures transforming[1] into humans to seduce or otherwise consume the human. In a sense, having a dragon be only a dragon is historically how it is done[2].

Hoid is a Dragon

This theory really is to explain the length of Hoid's age besides simply using time relativistic techniques to be at many places during the entire timeline. He doesn't hold any of the Shards and thus does not have the lifespan that holding a shard would allow. Even with the time dilation techniques, he would appear older in books. His appearance is many of the books changes, but rarely is any indication of his age given.

To some he may appear young and other others he may appear old. The magic system he uses might be used to cast an illusion to shadow his true age.

Other explanations include:
  • That his magic system allows for living a longer time.
  • His race lives a longer span than normal.
  • He held a shard for some time and learned how to live longer and then released the shard to someone else.
  • All the above.

The problems with this addition to the theory is that Hoid would had to of been a dragon prior to the events in Liar. EDIT: Lair and DragonSteel are set on the same planet.

Thoughts?

What do you think? I know nothing about DragonSteel, but I'm going to pull this out of my chull because it is easy to be right or wrong. Either Brandon is going to do it or he isn't or he simply won't address it. Which I assume is the same as they can't or at least won't because of the insane difficulty of changing back or stupidity of changing.

If I'm right[3], then I can rub it in your faces and do a little dance[4]. If I'm wrong, then, "Meh." It is a coin toss after all.

This does not, I believe, violate the ban on using nonpublished books for theories. The reason, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Brandon has stated that Dragons exist on Dragonsteel and that Hoid was there when the events of the shattering happened. Finally he has stated that the shattering happened on the same world as Liar and DragonSteel. Also technically Dragonsteel is published[5].

Endnotes

[1] The transformations are usually by magic to either change the appearance only (illusion) or an actual transformation into human form.

[2] I, of course, am speaking anecdotally and so my knowledge of the full extent of lore containing dragons is limited. Simply speaking, either a dragon can transform or it can not, it appears to me that the latter is used more frequently. Of course, there is another category of whether the Dragon has intelligent or not and simply hunts for food.

[3] Which is like flipping a coin and choosing right and then suggesting to those around that you are a genius. Correlation is not the same as causality. I'll ignore this for now.

[4] It is entirely possible that Brandon might read this and decide to not do what is suggested, to be contrary. It is entirely possible that Brandon or Peter might read this and simply not care. I think the second statement is more plausible than the first, but in my mind, it'll be the first, if I'm wrong. Also, I won't be doing a dance. I suck at dancing.

[5] Even if technically, it will be rewritten or revised and published for wide release at a later date.

[6] I can't find the exact name of the Kingdom, but I'm sure I've read it. It might have been in one of the links from the page. When I have time, I'll track it down.

Edited by Jacob Santos, 17 November 2011 - 07:19 AM.

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#2 Gagylpus

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:27 PM

Very interesting. It certainly seems plausible, with the knowledge I have of Dragonsteel - which is exactly none, lol. However, I highly doubt we will find out anything on that level of significance about Hoid before the Dragonsteel series is published.

We can always add "Is Hoid a dragon?" to the list of questions to ask Brandon, though. :D
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#3 Shard Obsessed

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:41 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if dragons exist in Dragonsteel or if they could turn into humans, but I doubt Hoid is one himself.

And for the record, Erikson (although I'm a big fan) hardly invented the wheel when it comes to dragons shapeshifting into humans. Raymond E. Feist's Midkemia novels have had dragons that could transform into humans for a good couple decades now, a couple Weis and Hickman series have featured this, and once you move past Euro-centric fantasy worlds and series it's even more common. Hell, there's even a children's series from the eighties/nineties by Lawrence Yep, featuring a dragon princess who could take human form - and one of those books was even called Dragon Steel.

Fortunately, ideas - much like titles - can not be copyrighted and its all about the execution.
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#4 zas678

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:35 PM

I think this goes a little too far. Pretty much all we know about dragons in the cosmere is that there's a book named Dragonsteel, which (most likely) has dragons in it. They might be highly developed, and capable of doing magic and comunicating with people- or they might just be giant flying burning reptiles. We have no indication one way or another- unless you count the "old reptile" quote from the letter in WoK as being literal, but we don't even know that for sure.
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#5 Guest_Jacob Santos_*

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:52 AM

We have no indication one way or another- unless you count the "old reptile" quote from the letter in WoK as being literal, but we don't even know that for sure.


I'm willing to count it as literal, since Brandon stated before that the recipient of the letter was from Liar or Dragonsteel. It has concerned me with that particular wording. It didn't sound like an insult, simply a matter of fact and it has been bothering me ever since I read it.

If my theory that Hoid is dragon is true, then it would make sense that the recipient is Hoid and the Seventh Shard is under Hoid. However, doesn't quite make sense, since the general consensus (err, at least I believe) is that Hoid is the writer. It is a fact that most sane people don't write letters to themselves or at least include phrases about hoping the letter finds the person. Some people have been known to mail themselves a letter to be sure they remember something.

EDIT:

Started Proof section of theory. Please read it and tell me what you think.

Edited by Jacob Santos, 17 November 2011 - 07:21 AM.

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#6 Wispsy

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:56 AM

Still it's abit of a jump to go from dragons may exsist to dragons walk around alot as humans at this point
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#7 Guest_Jacob Santos_*

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 07:54 AM

What can I say? I'm a trend-setter.

Well, I don't know how many books you've read, I'm going to guess as much or more than I have. However, I've noticed a few trends with Dragons. I hope that Brandon creates something that I haven't seen before. He often does. Logically, I can not see what other possibilities could exist.

Let me know where I could be at fault.
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#8 prehistoricman

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:01 PM

Hoid is definitely not a dragon. Hoid's origins are explored in Liar of Partinel, an unfinished novel. Since it never was published, the stuff in it isn't officially cannon, but later novels do hint that some of it is cannon. You can find a bunch more hoid appearances here (through Warbreaker) as well as chapters 1-6 of Liar.
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#9 Catalyst21

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:25 PM

To repeat what has already been confirmed, there are dragons in dragonsteel.


....
Ha!!! I found the quote, and it was from Brandon himself. There are dragons in dragonsteel.


Source = https://sites.google...othology/part-1

Feifner: Do you think you will ever include dragons in your books?
Dragonsteel, a series I’ll do someday, has Dragons in it. Hint: This world/series is very important to Hoid.


=^.^=
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#10 Guest_Jacob Santos_*

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:52 AM

Hoid is definitely not a dragon. Hoid's origins are explored in Liar of Partinel, an unfinished novel. Since it never was published, the stuff in it isn't officially cannon, but later novels do hint that some of it is cannon. You can find a bunch more hoid appearances here (through Warbreaker) as well as chapters 1-6 of Liar.


I've only read chapter 1, I couldn't find later chapters. However, I read in the rules that unpublished works can't be used as "proof" since they must not be consider canon. When Lair comes out, I suspect much of what is contained will be similar. I look forward to reading Lair.

Dear god. I has the idea. What if Lair becomes not a prequel, but a continuation of the arcs? What I mean is simply. What if the Hoid that dies is actually the same Hoid that has appeared in all of the stories. I assume that this has been addressed, but most people assume that the Hoid who dies is another Hoid and the Hoid we know and love takes his mantle.

As far fetched as it might seem, why write the events of an entire long arc, only to end it with a prequel? I mean, the Sword of Shannara series did it, but the author did continue the main arc. It seems to me, that it is a lot of work to reveal the major mysteries.

If Dragonsteel is supposed to be the final arc and it takes place 100+ years after Lair, and it going to be one of the last books written and every book is basically written in chronological order, then it means that Lair and Dragonsteel also take place after the events of Stormlight Archive.

What proof or has Brandon said that Lair and Dragonsteel will be a prequel when it comes out?

The Hoid in Lair, is basically a scholar and quite possibility could explain the Ars Arcanum writer. Everyone who has read Lair, just assumes that the Hoid in all of the series is the one that takes up the name and the previous Hoid's papers.

Belief comes first, Evidence comes second. We all assumed that the references that Hoid gives in tWoK are about the events in Lair. However, given that we can't take Lair as canon, we need to assume that the meaning could be something else entirely. I don't know, I would have to buy the Kindle version in order to do some searching. I only have the audio version and it is difficult to find information in that medium without first bookmarking locations.

What evidence do we have that Hoid is not the Hoid that dies as opposed to the Hoid that takes his name. Of course, this goes out the door, if you have confirmation that Lair and Dragonsteel will be prequels.
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#11 prehistoricman

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:20 PM

I've only read chapter 1, I couldn't find later chapters. However, I read in the rules that unpublished works can't be used as "proof" since they must not be consider canon. When Lair comes out, I suspect much of what is contained will be similar. I look forward to reading Lair.

From WoK it is established that Hoid took the name from something else and knows lightweaving. Furthermore, I believe that Brandon has confirmed that Hoid is in fact Midius from Liar. Also, we know that Hoid knew the shardholders before they gained the shards.
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#12 Windrunner

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 01:42 PM

If Dragonsteel is supposed to be the final arc and it takes place 100+ years after Lair, and it going to be one of the last books written and every book is basically written in chronological order, then it means that Lair and Dragonsteel also take place after the events of Stormlight Archive.


I'm pretty sure that the fact that all the cosmere books were in chronological order is just a coincidence. After all Alloy of Law just broke this pattern, and I don't think that Brandon has even confirmed that Dragonsteel is the last cosmere series he will write. It seems likely that it will be but I don't think that means that it happened last.
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#13 Chaos

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

I'm pretty sure that the fact that all the cosmere books were in chronological order is just a coincidence. After all Alloy of Law just broke this pattern, and I don't think that Brandon has even confirmed that Dragonsteel is the last cosmere series he will write. It seems likely that it will be but I don't think that means that it happened last.


This. Plus, when Brandon told us that things were in chronological order, he explicitly said some books got skipped.

As for the topic itself, sure, maybe dragons can transform into people, but I don't for a minute think Hoid is a dragon. The recipient of the letter, however, could be.
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