Seloun
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Posts posted by Seloun
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3 hours ago, agrabes said:
I didn't have an issue with her comment toward Kaladin at all. I don't consider it an insult or personal attack and I don't think Kaladin took it as one. It was an appropriate rebuke to him - he can't dismiss her proposed plan without considering it just because he doesn't like one part of its moral implications. By choosing to spare the Singers, he may be condemning the humans to death and he was refusing to consider that part of the equation.
Well, it's a pretty classic example of an ad hominem attack to imply your opponent is lacking logic or is too emotional (or otherwise belittle the person making the argument rather than the argument itself). It just stands out because this is perhaps the most common fallacy in debate and I wouldn't have expected Jasnah to have made such a mistake. If she had said his argument was lacking in logic or was stupid dumb poo (slightly more defensible) I think it wouldn't have been so jarring.
Basically what I didn't like about it wasn't that she was insulting someone (or Kaladin specifically) but that she was using that as part of an argument during a discussion, which felt very out of character.
I think that Jasnah's example of vindictiveness is mostly confined to the Ruthar scene, which I do find harder to defend - it's effective, both in the short term (removing Ruthar) and long term (outlawing duelling), but the sheer callous calculatedness hurts her cause in other ways, I think. Dalinar remarks on it too:
QuoteJasnah plucked the paper from his fingers. “I will use my own unfortunate experience today as an example of why this is a terrible tradition. Ruthar’s blood will be the last such spilled. And as we leave this era of barbarism, each and every attendant at court will know that Alethkar’s first queen is a woman unafraid of doing what needs to be done. Herself.”
She was firm, so Dalinar tucked away his anger, then turned to leave. A part of him understood her move, and it was likely to be effective. Yet at the same time, it displayed that Jasnah Kholin—brilliant, determined—was not perfect. There were things about her that unnerved even the callous soldier that lived deep inside him.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
I wouldn't necessarily call this petty (it's pretty serious stuff) but spiteful is not a bad way to describe it; the main redeeming factor is that it was not merely for the sake of spite. So it's definitely in the text, though I think this is actually the only real example of it in RoW. Her discussions with Dalinar all seem pretty respectful.
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13 minutes ago, agrabes said:
It's one thing for her to run roughshod over some random person and ignore all their arguments as a debate tactic - but this is Dalinar who had been one of her closest confidants. To ignore and dismiss what he had to say definitely made her a lot lower in my point of view. This is a close friend and family member who has always treated you with dignity and respect even when others have not - you can still disagree with him, but you need to acknowledge his points have merit, acknowledge there's a possibility you may be wrong. This is not a debate being held between political rivals, it's a discussion among friends. If you're debating it to the maximum extent with a friend who is trying to offer you advice based on years of experience, then you're kind of being a jerk.
I kind of understand what you mean here about Jasnah coming off as being a bit of a jerk, but I think the reading might be slightly off. The main things to note here:
1) Jasnah is the one who asks Dalinar and Navani for their opinions (it's not Dalinar who brings it up to her):
Quote“He will bring the Heralds,” Jasnah said. “Until he returns, perhaps we can discuss the proposal I showed you before you left for Hearthstone, Uncle.”
Oh dear, Navani thought. Here we go.… Jasnah had been pushing toward a singular law for Alethkar. A dangerous one.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah solicits Dalinar's opinion - it's not Dalinar bringing up an objection and her simply rejecting it out of hand. Also, it's pretty clear Dalinar hasn't really thought about the issue besides, well, dismiss it out of hand as a viable opinion:
QuoteDalinar stood up and began to pace. Not a good sign. “This isn’t the time, Jasnah. We can’t create social upheaval on this scale during such a terrible moment in our history.”
“Says the man,” Jasnah said, “who wrote a book earlier this year. Upending centuries of established gender norms.”
Dalinar winced.
“Mother,” Jasnah said to Navani, “I thought you said you’d talk to him.”
“There wasn’t a convenient opportunity,” Navani said. “And … to be honest, I share his concerns.”
“I forbid this,” Dalinar said. “You can’t simply free every Alethi slave. It would cause mass chaos.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So Dalinar brings up two objections here (really one objection stated twice). This leads to:
2) Jasnah does specifically respond to Dalinar's points:
Quote“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
She acknowledges that Dalinar is likely correct that this proposal will cause significant upheaval in society. Her counterargument is that society is already going to be significantly impacted anyway due to other events (making this a good time to push through other changes which are minor by comparison). Her statement also implies she's done extensive research about historical precedent for changes like this.
3) She's not dismissive of the concerns Dalinar (and Navani) bring up; however, she's already considered most of what they mention:
Quote“By freeing the ardents from being owned?” Jasnah asked, amused. “Well, I suppose some will say that. They’ll see an attack in anything I do. Contrastingly, this is for their good. In freeing the ardents, I risk letting the church become a political power in the world again.”
“And … that doesn’t worry you?” Navani asked. Sometimes sorting out this woman’s motivations—which she claimed were always very straightforward—was like trying to read the Dawnchant.
“Of course it worries me,” Jasnah said. “However, I’d prefer ardents actively participating in politics, as opposed to the behind-the-scenes smoke screen they use now. This will give them more opportunity for power, yes, but also expose their actions to increased public scrutiny.”
Jasnah tapped the table with a nail on her freehand. She wore her safehand in a sleeve, eminently proper, though Navani knew Jasnah thought little of social constructs. She followed them anyway. Immaculate makeup. Hair in braids. A beautiful, regal havah.
“This will be for the good of Alethkar in the long run,” Jasnah said. “Economically and morally. Uncle Dalinar’s objections are valuable. I will listen, figure out how to respond to such challenges.…”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
I don't know how she could have handled this better. Jasnah actively looks for counterarguments to her proposal. She responds to every objection brought up, and (implied) has data/research to back up her assertions. She acknowledges the potential problems with her proposal, but notes that the circumstances make it a good time for it and the alternatives are likely to be worse. She also leaves her plan to be criticized further.
Really, this is exactly how a good executive should act; as she notes, Jasnah is not asking for permission here, but she is genuinely open to objections she might not have considered. Dalinar doesn't provide anything she hasn't already considered (and it really seems implied that he hasn't spent a lot of time thinking or researching this) but she's willing to keep listening. She's decided on the goal (get rid of slavery) but is willing to accept help with/refine further the implementation ('figure out how to respond to such challenges').
I won't defend the Rushar scene here (I don't think her position there is nearly as solid, anyway), but I do want to clarify the point about Jasnah's argument (and it's an argument, not a discussion) with Kaladin in Oathbringer. I don't disagree with her position necessarily (or find it morally indefensible); the issue I have is that she makes a personal attack on Kaladin rather than the merits of the argument:
Quote“Storms!” Kaladin said, standing up straight. “Have you no sympathy?”
“I have plenty, bridgeman. Fortunately, I temper it with logic. Perhaps you should consider acquiring some at a future date.”
...
“Protecting Alethkar,” Kaladin said, “doesn’t have to mean completely crushing the parshmen and—”
“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 415-416). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
The main redeeming thing is that I think Jasnah would probably agree that it was out of line:
Quote“Brightness!” Shallan said as Jasnah sat. “That was incredible!”
“I let myself be pushed into abundant emotion.”
“You were so clever!”
“And yet, my first insult was not to attack him, but the moral reputation of his female relative. Clever? Or simply the use of an obvious bludgeon?”
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 527). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
(for context, this is immediately after her encounter with Amaram)
Nevertheless, it's not a great look to be insulting your debate partner (even if it is in addition to addressing the point). It stood out to me because it seemed very out of character for Jasnah, although with RoW it might just be that Jasnah is actually much more emotional than she presents.
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10 hours ago, agrabes said:
In RoW, she lost that quality, imo. She became 100% certain she was right and always knew what was best. Even her closest friends and advisors, who she might have expressed doubts with in the past, no longer got to see any doubt or uncertainty. In my opinion, this significantly detracts from her competence. A person who doesn't consider the possibility they may be wrong is less competent that a person who does. I think some of this may be the impact of her relationship with WIt, who she probably now confides in almost exclusively rather than Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, or others. Maybe if we saw her conversations with Wit, we'd see her truly contemplating the best course of action and eventually becoming convinced this was the best path despite the fact that it's not a perfect strategy. But we can only judge her based on what we see "on screen." What we see on the page is that she is now convinced she is always 100% right and we no longer see her weigh the pros and cons of her actions. The Jasnah of the first three books is someone I would like and respect were I to meet her in real life. The Jasnah of RoW just seems unpleasant. I admit, part of it is probably because I disagree with her radical style of politics (i.e. that she wants to make rapid and dramatic changes by royal decree) and that I don't feel the way it's been portrayed in the books is realistic. But that's a topic that's been hashed out ad nauseum in other threads.
I would have to argue against Jasnah not expressing any uncertainty in RoW. I'm guessing that lot of this is influenced by her first major scene (where she 'kills' Ruthar), but I think it's not really representative of her throughout the book. I also don't think that it's accurate that she confides solely in Wit (though he does appear to be her main confidant at this point) - we see a couple of scenes where she does or is implied to have discussed matters with especially Dalinar (e.g. Ch. 17, 'A Proposal'); Dalinar's possession and building off of the contract for the duel of champions written by Wit/Jasnah seems to suggest he's familiar with (and presumably agrees with) the contents.
Also, her internal perspectives certainly express uncertainty or realization of error; the most significant or notable is the section immediately following her battle experience:
Quote“I’ve read about it, you know,” she eventually said. “The feeling you get out there. The focus that you need to adopt to cope with it, to keep moving. Simply doing your job. I don’t have their training, Wit. I kept getting distracted, or frightened, or confused.”
He tapped her hand. The closed left gauntlet, where she held the Edgedancer’s topaz. She stared at it, then drew in the Light. That made her feel better, but not all of her fatigue was physical.
“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”
...
“But take care, Jasnah. Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”
He was right. She sighed, then took a piece of fruit—gripping it delicately between two gauntleted fingers—and took a bite. The cool sweetness shocked her. It belonged to another world. It washed away the taste of ash, renewing her mouth and awakening her hunger. She’d grown that numb after just two hours of fighting? Her uncle had, on campaign, fought for hours on end—day after day.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
The other thing to note is that when Jasnah is expressing certainty during debates, it's likely a rhetorical device:
Quote“Yes, Brightness,” Shallan said, bowing her head. “Did you really believe the things you said? About the Almighty?”
Jasnah was quiet for a moment. “I do. Though perhaps I overstated my conviction.”
“The Assuredness Movement of rhetorical theory?”
“Yes,” Jasnah said. “I suppose that it was. I must be careful not to put my back toward you as I read today.”
Shallan smiled.
“A true scholar must not close her mind on any topic,” Jasnah said, “no matter how certain she may feel. Just because I have not yet found a convincing reason to join one of the devotaries does not mean I never will. Though each time I have a discussion like the one today, my convictions grow firmer.”
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 469). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
It's common in debate to present a particular position as firmly as possible (regardless of how much one personally agrees with the premise) to give the argument a fair shake. Being half-hearted about it may mean that the position was sound, but the debater was not, which makes it difficult to have confidence about the merits of the argument itself (as opposed to the person doing the arguing).
I actually thought Oathbringer was worse for how it presented Jasnah (e.g. kill all the parshmen/Heralds argument with Kaladin).
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I'll make the observation that the reason I like Jasnah is unrelated to her being female; it has to do with her being a rational person. She's an excellent counterexample to the straw atheist caricature, and a positive example of smart, logical morality. Contrast with e.g. 'smart' (and that really does deserve to be in quotes) Taravangian, who is the very essence 'unfeeling rational robot' trope.
It's surprisingly difficult to find examples of intelligent people succeeding and acting morally because of their intelligence, rather than despite it, especially in fantasy. That's why I like her/empathize with her, because I think morality should derived rationally rather than axiomatic, and her position is not shown to be immediately ridiculous. It also touches on conflict with religion for that reason, and overall it's a much more nuanced approach to it than I've seen pretty much anywhere else (often, it's one side or the other rather than examining the conflict itself).
The reason I like her is that if I were in a similar situation, I would like to think I could deal with it in a similar fashion. It's heartening to see an intellectual dissident not reach an ignoble end, but instead prove valuable specifically for their intelligence.
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I wrote a couple of posts about this possibility:
Somewhat more general version of the theory
The basic gist is that I don't think Maya and Adolin yet have a reversed bond; I think Renarin does, and that'll be the key to reviving the deadeyes.
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I think Voidbinding is essentially an inverted Nahel bond. Specifically, it's where the human provides Investure to the spren rather than the reverse. I think that Renarin is an example of this:
Quote“I’m not sure I should say. I know I told you to come talk to me, but … I vacillate. The things I see, they’re of him, right? I think he shows me what he wants. That’s why I saw you becoming his champion.” He glanced down at his bowl. “Glys isn’t convinced the visions are bad. He says we’re something new, and he doesn’t think the visions are specifically from Odium—though perhaps his desires taint what we see.”
...
Glys, who preferred to hide within Renarin, grew excited. He’d captured this vision as it came, so they could study it. Renarin wasn’t quite so enthusiastic. It would be so much easier if he were like other Radiants.
...
Around Renarin, the stained glass windows began to crumble. It took Stormlight and effort by Glys to re-create them—and he was plainly getting tired. Gradually, Renarin’s world became normal.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Glys is the one that captures the vision (similar wording as Shallan's Memories) and Glys is the one that creates the images. My theory is that the 'corrupting' that Sja-anat allows Radiant spren to invert the Nahel bond. This was rare before the Recreance since spren couldn't really be broken in the same way people could to allow Investure to enter:
Quote“We’re spren,” Syl said. “We’re forces. You can’t kill us completely. Just . . . sort of.”
“That’s perfectly clear.”
“It’s perfectly clear to us,” Syl said. “You’re the strange ones. Break a rock, and it’s still there. Break a spren, and she’s still there. Sort of. Break a person, and something leaves. Something changes. What’s left is just meat. You’re weird.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1044). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
also
QuoteIt was coming to us, the Sibling said. Consequences once chased only humans. With the Recreance, the consequences became ours as well. You have simply sealed that truth as eternal.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Whatever happened to BAM during the Recreance appears to have made the spren vulnerable in this regard (or, say, more human-like - shades of Ishar's experimentation here). But if spren can break like humans, then perhaps they can also be repaired in the same way:
Quote“Radiants break too,” Kaladin whispered. “But then, fortunately, we fill the cracks with something stronger. Come on. We need to protect the people in that tower. You in your way. Me in mine.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So I think the Voidbinders (remember, humans are Voidbringers) will be Renarin, Rlain, anyone else binding a Sja-anat spren, and anyone reverse-binding a deadeye (i.e. Adolin), though the latter may require Sja-anat's assistance. Or more accurately, the spren are the Void(human)binders.
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Quote
Maya’s howls came to a crescendo of anguish, then she fell silent, gasping for breath. Weak. Too weak.
Take it, Adolin thought to her. Take some of my strength.
She looked right at him, and despite her scratched-out eyes, she saw him. Adolin felt something, a warmth deep within him. Maya drew in air, filling her lungs. Her expression livid as she gathered all of her strength, she prepared to shout again. Adolin braced himself for the screech. Her mouth opened.
And she spoke.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
This feels highly reminiscent of the scene in WoR:
QuoteKaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.
It was the end. The journey had come and gone.
Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.
He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.
...
“Kaladin!” Syl’s voice. “Stretch forth thy hand!” She zipped around him, suddenly visible as a ribbon of light.
“I can’t . . .” Kaladin said, drained.
“Stretch forth thy hand!”
He reached out a trembling hand. Moash hesitated.
...
Kaladin gasped a deep breath as if coming fully awake for the first time. The entire hallway went black as the Stormlight in every lamp down the length of the hall winked out.
For a moment, they stood in darkness.
Then Kaladin exploded with Light.
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1015). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
I think that these scenes are parallels of each other, except the role of the donor/recipient (or spren/Radiant) are essentially inverted. The way the nahel bond and Investure in general appears to work is that it fills the broken gaps in the person (and this is why people have to be 'broken' to be able to bond); normally, spren are unbreakable in this regard, but something changed in the Recreance that allow spren (at least Radiant spren) to themselves also 'crack'.
Some references:
Quote“We’re spren,” Syl said. “We’re forces. You can’t kill us completely. Just . . . sort of.”
“That’s perfectly clear.”
“It’s perfectly clear to us,” Syl said. “You’re the strange ones. Break a rock, and it’s still there. Break a spren, and she’s still there. Sort of. Break a person, and something leaves. Something changes. What’s left is just meat. You’re weird.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1044). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
This is Syl's understanding, and for pretty much all of history, this has been accurate. But something changed during the Recreance that let spren die/break like humans:
QuoteIt was coming to us, the Sibling said. Consequences once chased only humans. With the Recreance, the consequences became ours as well. You have simply sealed that truth as eternal.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Regarding the needing to be 'broken':
Quote“They say you have to be broken,” Lopen said, glancing toward his spren, who made a few loops of excitement, then shot off to hide again. Lopen would need to go looking for the little guy—he did enjoy the game. “You know that tall woman, the king’s sister? The chortana with the glare that could break a Shardblade? She says that the power has to get into your soul somehow. So I’ve been trying to cry a lot, and moan about my life being so terrible, but I think the Stormfather knows I’m lying. Hard to act sad when you’re the Lopen.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1208). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So the Maya and the deadeyes are all 'broken' in a way spren couldn't break before the Recreance, because of something a Bondsmith (who are implied to be able to change fundamental laws of the world) changed by (or during) capturing BAM. What I believe is that the deadeyes require a reverse Nahel bond so someone else can repair their broken souls, in the same way the Nahel bond can 'repair' Radiants:
Quote“Radiants break too,” Kaladin whispered. “But then, fortunately, we fill the cracks with something stronger. Come on. We need to protect the people in that tower. You in your way. Me in mine.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
The problem I think is that the Nahel bond isn't intended to flow in the other direction. This is I think the problem with Adolin trying to 'power' Maya - the connection just isn't efficient. The solution, I think, is Renarin: I believe that the corrupted Nahel bond does run the opposite direction:
Quote“I’m not sure I should say. I know I told you to come talk to me, but … I vacillate. The things I see, they’re of him, right? I think he shows me what he wants. That’s why I saw you becoming his champion.” He glanced down at his bowl. “Glys isn’t convinced the visions are bad. He says we’re something new, and he doesn’t think the visions are specifically from Odium—though perhaps his desires taint what we see.”
...
Glys, who preferred to hide within Renarin, grew excited. He’d captured this vision as it came, so they could study it. Renarin wasn’t quite so enthusiastic. It would be so much easier if he were like other Radiants.
...
Around Renarin, the stained glass windows began to crumble. It took Stormlight and effort by Glys to re-create them—and he was plainly getting tired. Gradually, Renarin’s world became normal.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Note that it's Glys that captured the vision, and Glys is the one that is implied to have created the images using Stormlight. Note that Renarin can't create illusions like other Truthwatchers:
QuoteRenarin claimed the spren was trustworthy, but something was odd about his powers. They had managed to recruit several standard Truthwatchers—and they could create illusions like Shallan. Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes.…
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So I believe when Sja-anat corrupts Radiant spren, she makes them able to invert the bond so that Investure flows from the human to the spren. I think this is what will happen to Maya and Adolin - Sja-anat will be able to change the bond so that Adolin can 'power' Maya much as with Renarin and Glys, becoming an example of a Voidbound Radiant.
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Colonel Mustard, in the kitchen, with... the lead pipe?
According to the Stormfather, Honor was going crazy before his death:
QuoteBut in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1052). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
If a mad Bondsmith is scary, how much more so an out-of-control Shard? It's not completely clear if what caused his death was the reason for Honor going nuts (or if something had caused him to go mad first, e.g. Oathpact breaking) but it's not unreasonable that he might have been mercy killed (or just to save Roshar) without positing a malicious intent. Hypothetical timeline - Odium wounds Honor severely somehow due to Honor being vulnerable due to the violation of the Oathpact (might e.g. constitute Honor breaking his word), Honor starts to lose it (maybe during short periods of lucidity, he records the Stormfather visions), and
Miss ScarletCultivation Splinters him before he can destroy Roshar.0 -
There are 16C2 combinations of 2 shards out of a pool of 16 => 16 * 15 / 2 (16 shards to pick for the first, 15 other shards to pick from the second, but since e.g. Honor-Odium is the same as Odium-Honor, need to account for the double counting) = 120.
There are 2^16 - 1 (65535) combinations of 1 or more shards given the pool of 16 (for each shard, we can decide whether or not to add it to the pool, or 2 choices per shard, so 2 * 2 * ... * 2 16 times, minus the 1 'empty' choice where we don't add any shard).
It's unclear if there's a direct relationship between Allomantic metals and the shards, besides the number.
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1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:
No. The Rhythm produced by the combination of their power is War. Would a person who picks up Honor and Cultivation become the god of Towers?
Honor + Cultivation = Science
QuoteThen, a pure song. Rising up from within her. Orderly, powerful. Had she done harm without realizing it? Possibly. Had she made mistakes? Certainly. But she’d been trying to help. That was her journey. A journey to discover, learn, and make the world better.
Honor’s song welled up inside her, and she sang it. The pillar began to vibrate as the Sibling sang Cultivation’s song. The pure sound of Lifelight. The sound began to shift, and Navani modulated her tone, inching it closer and closer to …
The two snapped into harmony. The boundless energy of Cultivation, always growing and changing, and the calm solidity of Honor—organized, structured. They vibrated together. Structure and nature. Knowledge and wonder. Mixing.
The song of science itself.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
And yes, I think the implication here is that someone who had both would be Science (or something along that line).
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There's likely a literally magical reason why Kaladin wins all of his fights. And based on what Moash has said, and what Kaladin has noted in the past, his survival (and inability to die) is probably not just a coincidence (think mark of Cain). It's been foreshadowed from the very beginning:
QuoteIt was odd. It fed his nagging worry that he was subject to some kind of supernatural curse of the type that were supposed to happen to people who sought the Old Magic. There were stories of evil men made immortal, then tortured over and over again—like Extes, who had his arms torn off each day for sacrificing his son to the Voidbringers in exchange for knowledge of the day of his death. It was just a tale, but tales came from somewhere.
Kaladin lived when everyone else died. Was that the work of some spren from Damnation, toying with him like a windspren, but infinitely more nefarious? Letting him think that he might be able to do some good, then killing everyone he tried to help? There were supposed to be thousands of kinds of spren, many that people never saw or didn’t know about. Syl followed him. Could some kind of evil spren be doing the same?
A very disturbing thought.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 688-689). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
It's not really accurate that Kaladin succeeds at everything he tries to do. Instead, he's (likely supernaturally) successful at two things: not dying, and combat. While we don't know the specific mechanism of either, the former seems to be a real thing; though Moash may be crazy, he might be onto something.
With respect to Kaladin's ability in combat, Honor + Odium is War. Kaladin show supernatural attunement with combat, more than anyone else in the series:
QuoteWind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack— didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.
Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt— impossibly— that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 670-671). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
There are multiple passages like this one, where combat just seems to click for Kaladin. It's more than 'he's just really naturally good'. Given what we know from RoW, he appears to somehow be linked/bonded to the rhythm of War.
So yes, Kaladin's successes are unrealistic - but that's almost certainly the point; he has external help that has been hinted at but hasn't been fully revealed to this point.
WRT Raboniel: Keep in mind that Raboniel is stalling throughout the book because she's looking for a way to permanently kill her daughter (and ultimately, end the war). The reason she proposed converting the Sibling is because she thought Stormlight could be the anti-Voidlight and thus be used to kill her daughter if she figured out how to combine it in the proper manner; once Navani showed her she was wrong about that, converting the Sibling becomes much less of a priority for her. Having Kaladin around to slow things down doesn't really impact her plan, and arguably benefits her overall. Likewise, Leshwi clearly doesn't care to be killing Windrunners; the Fused aren't of one mind with Odium or even each other.
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I think Kaladin is more suited/more valuable as a symbol than a leader, per se. Think Mockingjay.
QuoteAll these people believed in a version of him who had already died. Highmarshal Kaladin Stormblessed. The valiant soldier, leader of the Windrunners, stalwart and unwavering. Like Kal the innocent youth, Squadleader Kaladin the soldier in Amaram’s army, and Kaladin the slave … Highmarshal Stormblessed had passed. Kaladin had become someone new, someone who could not measure up to the legend.
But with all these people believing in him—falling in behind him, whispering with hope and anticipation—perhaps he could resurrect Stormblessed for one last battle.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
In that sense, I think Kaladin is actually more effective not being involved in the day-to-day running of things. Getting involved in politics and making compromises to get things done wouldn't work for him. Also, not being the underdog in a resistance doesn't seem to suit him very well; he's like how Taln is described - getting into hopeless fights and somehow winning - except that he never dies.
For the actual task of leading the Radiants, Jasnah seems to be the best choice. She's the best example of the enlightened philosopher-king ruler/benevolent dictator, and one who is self-aware enough to build in restrictions in her office for the future:
Quote“Both of their governments go back centuries,” Jasnah said. “They’ve had generations to refine their processes. We’d do well to learn from them.” She eyed him, thoughtful. “The days of absolute power in one person’s hands will likely soon pass us by. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m the last true Alethi monarch.”
“What would your father say, hearing you talk like that?”
“I suspect I could make him understand,” she said. “He was interested in his legacy. Building something that would span generations. His goals were laudable, but his methods … well, our kingdom has been difficult to maintain. A king ruling by the gauntlet and sword can easily see it slip away when he weakens. Compare this to the Azish system, where a bad Prime is unable to single-handedly ruin their government.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So I think the short-term answer is that Jasnah is the best choice, who would transition the Radiants into a more parlimentary system (Radiants being divided the way they are already fits this rather nicely), governed by multiple representatives. Presumably this wouldn't just be the Radiants, either, but something more akin to the Silver Kingdoms era.
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On 12/5/2020 at 3:25 AM, Georion said:
Hey, I've got a Lirin related question and I dont know where else to ask, dont want to make a separate thread for it.
Did Lirin swear a radiant oath, while the spren of Urithiru were blacked out? When they had a fight with Kaladin, one of his replies definitely sounded like one, but I was too caught up in the moment to reflect on it, or compare it to the other known oaths, and now I cant even find the paragraph. I kinda thought he'll end up bounding the Sibling because I could see some connections between their personalities and behavior, but alas no.
It has been bugging me since. Does anyone remember which chapter it was?
It's not a Radiant oath, but I believe you're referring to this:
Quote“I can and will!” Lirin shouted, standing up. “Because I will take responsibility for what I’ve done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!” He grimaced, sickened. “Oh, Almighty. You murdered a man inside my home.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Chapter 43 ('Men and Monsters')
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Quote
Raboniel took it, and though she didn’t drop it this time, she did flinch. “So strange,” she said. She fitted it into her second dagger. Then she undid a screw and slipped out the piece of metal running through the center. She flipped it around—it had points on both ends, and a hole for the screw—before replacing it.
“To make the anti-Voidlight flow out of the gemstone along the blade?” Navani asked. “Instead of drawing in what it touches?”
“Indeed,” Raboniel said. “You may wish to take cover.” Then she turned, walked across the room, and stabbed her daughter in the chest.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So flipping it reverse the action of the dagger. This seems to suggest the housing of the gem really isn't that important (or at least isn't the reason why the gem attracts Light). There doesn't seem to be any indication that Raboniel did anything else with the dagger (e.g. somehow inverted the gem housing) though it's possible Navani didn't see everything.
It also seems to suggest the middle section isn't just a piece of raysium, but something that has asymmetry in composition or perhaps a composite piece.
That said, a 'silver-nickle alloy' seems like a really weird choice if the metal doesn't really matter; why not use something a lot more common? Unless she's being pedantic and the metal doesn't affect the dagger's (i.e. investure draining) function, but does affect the gem's function (perhaps making it less lossy?).
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Ardentia doesn't appear to be hereditary, and since people can leave it when they choose, not even permanent. (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Slavery)
As such, the ardents will almost certainly find this proposal to be offensive, since it's really part of their religious doctrine and intentionally assumed rather than something that's being forced on them. This proposal is definitely not for the benefit of the ardents in any practical form.
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Jasnah seems to have a healthy amount of skepticism about their relationship:
QuoteShe found the way he spoke fascinating. After all this time—and all her worries—here was one who was her intellectual equal. Perhaps her superior. She didn’t trust him, of course. But that was part of what intrigued her.
...
Wit unfolded a paper from his pocket, still kneeling beside her. He seemed to genuinely like her, and she found his companionship invigorating. Full of questions, delights, and surprises. She could provide the intimacy he desired, though she knew he found her lack of excitement on that axis odd, perhaps unsatisfying. That was not a new experience for her; she’d always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging.
The chance to scheme, to connect with a being like Wit—that was exciting. She was curious how the relationship would develop, and that invigorated her. After so many failures, this was something new and interesting.
She cupped his face with her hand. She wished she could, deep down, truly trust him. He was something she, and this world, had never before known. That was electrifying. It was also so extremely dangerous.
...
She met his eyes—the eyes of something that wasn’t a man. A thing that was eternal as a spren. Or, if he was to be believed, something even older.
“I feel,” she said, “like I should be terrified by that statement.”
“That’s why I’m so fond of you,” he said. “You are poised, you are smart, and you are always ready with a ploy; but when each of those things fails you, Jasnah, you are—above all else—paranoid.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah finds Wit interesting. This isn't really surprising, since he is interesting, and considering Jasnah's vocation as a historian, he's perhaps the most interesting person alive to her.
QuoteWit smiled. “I am but a man, Dalinar, so much as I wish it were not true at times. I am no Radiant. And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 798). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So Wit undoubtedly has an agenda, but it doesn't preclude a real fondness of Jasnah.
The main reason I think there is some genuine attraction there is because I think Wit could have gotten what he wanted from Jasnah without a romantic relationship. Indeed, I think if anything that hurts his cause (my reading is that she would have preferred if their relationship was purely intellectual, based on the above passage). She seems to pretty clearly understand the dangers involved here, and while it doesn't mean she might not make a mistake because of their relationship (e.g. due to Wit representing a valuable source) it seems pretty unlikely that it would be due to emotional attachment to Wit personally.
The way she describes their relationship makes me think that this is inherently temporary. It's interesting to her because it's something she doesn't know anything about, but once the mystery is gone, I don't know how much it would interest her. It's like a book that held the answers to the secrets of the universe - obviously something worth getting excited about, but once you've read it and understood it, does the artistry (versus the mere information content) merit a re-read? That said, given how old Wit is, 'temporary' might still be quite some time (it's a really long book).
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22 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:
So, I guess, to continue this discussion, I'd like to know what really makes her unique. Y'all have presented the depth of Jasnah's character, now I guess I'd like to see why that depth matters. I'll admit she's deep, but prevents her from being hollow? What makes her realistic? If I can lean into metaphor for a moment, what makes Jasnah jagged. What parts of her character don't fit together like a puzzle? Because real people are complicated and not straightforward. We don't make sense. What about Jasnah doesn't fit with the rest of her character. What is the mess that makes her actually feel human and not constructed?
It's probably worth noting that the reason she looks so put together is intentional. It's remarked multiple times how perfect Jasnah's appearance seems to be despite expectation:
QuoteJasnah tapped the table with a nail on her freehand. She wore her safehand in a sleeve, eminently proper, though Navani knew Jasnah thought little of social constructs. She followed them anyway. Immaculate makeup. Hair in braids. A beautiful, regal havah.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
I think that 'constructed' feel from Jasnah is often intended; it's something Jasnah presents to the world and not entirely representative of her character. We see some of the same complaints/observations from in-world:
Quote“Well, your wife writes a good essay,” Noura said.
He started. “Navani’s essay was the one that convinced you? Not Jasnah’s?”
“Each of the three arguments were weighed favorably, and the reports from Thaylen City are encouraging,” Noura said. “That had no small part in our decision. But while Jasnah Kholin’s writing is every bit as impressive as her reputation suggests, there was something … more authentic about Lady Navani’s plea.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 655). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah's letter, which was described as:
Quote“This is a work of art,” Noura said.
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 649). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
ends up feeling too perfect, too contrived, and thus less authentic. And her facade is the same way. Why? It's not definitive, but there's suggestions of deep trauma during her childhood:
QuoteJasnah settled back, listening to the three spanreeds scratching paper, writing out notes that—she feared—would mostly be irrelevant. Something stirred deep within her. Glimmers of memory from a dark room, screaming her voice ragged. A childhood illness nobody else seemed to remember, for all it had done to her.
It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her.
“Have you ever wondered how it would feel to lose your sanity, Ivory?” Ivory nodded. “I have wondered this. How could I not? Considering what the ancient fathers are.” “You call me logical,” Jasnah whispered. “It’s untrue, as I let my passions rule me as much as many. In my times of peace, however, my mind has always been the one thing I could rely upon.”
Except once.
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 478-479). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
And in many of her interactions, she seems very practiced. Looking at chapter 50 of RoW ('Queen') where she sets up Highprince Rutham:
QuoteHe stilled himself, then glanced about the room. She shouldn’t have confronted him here, where representatives of the other monarchs might hear. Knowing Jasnah, that was part of the reason she had done so. With her, every conversation was a little contest, and she always considered the terrain.
...
Dalinar narrowed his eyes toward Jasnah, who was making a display of going over the battle plans with the Mink. She’s putting on a show, he thought, noting how she specifically called out details on the maps, suggesting troop arrangements. She did a fair job, though she was no general.
...
Jasnah nodded to him, then returned to her exaggerated discussion of the maps. Yes, she was acting a role here.
...
Jasnah was making herself into bait. And Ruthar bit. Hard.
...
“Ruthar,” Jasnah said, standing above him. “You have insulted me thrice tonight. First, by implying a queen should not take concern for the welfare of her own armies. Second, by threatening to assault my Wit, a man who is an extension of the royal will. Third and worst of all, by judging me unfit to defend myself, despite my calling as a Knight Radiant.
“As you have died tonight, and I have bested you legally in combat, I name you forfeit of your title. It will pass to your eldest son, who has been speaking quite frankly with Wit recently. It seems he will make a far more fitting highprince.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah sounds practiced most likely because that's what she did; she sounds like a book because the things she says are things she's already polished with effort. It's like a mathematical proof - what you see is usually the final result of multiple iterations and false starts and intermediary calculation; it just looks like out of nowhere flashes of insight that elegantly all fit together. Or perhaps more on-point, like the process of writing a book.
And while we don't have direct evidence yet, I think the reason Jasnah is this way is intentional - early on in her life, she learned that if she did not do this, did not present a perfect self, she would find herself locked alone in a dark room. So she's always tightly controlled, and what she says in public is not spontaneous:
QuoteThe Mink bowed to her and retreated with Adolin and Shallan. As soon as he was gone—the map collapsing as Shallan left—Jasnah changed subtly. Her face became less of a mask. She didn’t walk with a queenly gait as she strode over and settled down at the room’s small table. This was the woman taking off her crown, now that she was with only family.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
And even there, it's likely based off her discussion with Dalinar regarding emancipation (quoted in my earlier post) that her speech wasn't off-the-cuff, either.
I don't think we see Jasnah really relax in any of her scenes except the one passage in Oathbreaker where she's alone with Ivory. In every other case, she's essentially performing (for herself, if not for anyone else), even in the scene with just her and Wit (she is fascinated by Wit, but clearly does not fully trust him). So if she seems a little too perfect, a little too artificial, it's probably because a lot of it is that way. All that said, even if all we see is what she chooses to show the world, her choice of what to show is indicative.
Quote“That’s why I’m so fond of you,” he said. “You are poised, you are smart, and you are always ready with a ploy; but when each of those things fails you, Jasnah, you are—above all else—paranoid.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Poised I think is the perfect term - elegant, yet prepared, both in the sense of being ready for things and in the sense of not being spontaneous.
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Here are some reasons why Jasnah is awesome:
Quote“I forbid this,” Dalinar said. “You can’t simply free every Alethi slave. It would cause mass chaos.”
“I wasn’t aware,” Jasnah said, “that you could forbid the queen from taking action.”
...
“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”
“But why?” Dalinar asked. “You’re always so pragmatic. This seems the opposite.”
“I seek the line of action that does the most possible good for the most people. This is in keeping with my moral philosophy.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah "Abraham Lincoln" Kholin. More political stuff:
Quote“I do like them,” he said. “I just don’t like how much bureaucracy Fen has to go through before anything gets done. The Azish are even worse. Why name your ruler an ‘emperor’ if he has to get approval from a dozen different functionaries to do his job?”
“One is a constitutional monarchy, the other a scholarly republic,” Jasnah said, sounding amused. “What did you expect?”
“A king to be a king,” he muttered, drinking the rest of his wine in one gulp.
“Both of their governments go back centuries,” Jasnah said. “They’ve had generations to refine their processes. We’d do well to learn from them.” She eyed him, thoughtful. “The days of absolute power in one person’s hands will likely soon pass us by. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m the last true Alethi monarch.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Kaladin doesn't get along with her. And yet...
QuoteHe ignored that, chatting with Mil about his pains. He suggested visiting the Edgedancers for Regrowth—but Mil’s pains had been around for months, so it was unlikely that they could do anything.
Fortunately, there were medicines that could help, and—with Jasnah capable of Soulcasting a wide range of substances—they had access to rare medications. Though Kaladin and the queen didn’t often see eye to eye, it said a great deal about her that she was willing to take time to make medicine.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Jasnah is awesome because her morality is a rational, reasoned one. She's the quintessential philosopher-king. She's what Taravangian wants to be: relentless, almost ruthless pragmatism nevertheless tempered with altruistic motivations.
QuoteJasnah froze, as if standing at the edge of a cliff. Wind blew through the temple, carrying with it a pair of spren in the form of golden spheres, bobbing in the currents.
Jasnah dismissed her sword.
“Jasnah?” Ivory said, appearing back in the form of a man, clinging to her collar.
Jasnah fell to her knees, then pulled Renarin into an embrace. He broke down crying, like he had as a boy, burying his head in her shoulder.
...
“Jasnah,” Ivory said, becoming full size as he stepped free of her collar. He leaned down. “Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is.” He seemed completely stunned. “It is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?”
...
“Jasnah,” Renarin said. “My vision was wrong about you. What I see … it can be wrong.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1133). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
By defying the prediction, Jasnah probably saved Roshar if not the Cosmere here. The fact that she was in position to make such a decision is also a testament to the methodical scholarship to recognize that there was something dangerous about Renarin; the decision she makes is what makes her a better Taravangian.
Despite her awesomeness, I would argue against the claim of her sue-ness. First, Jasnah has relatively small direct impact on the plot given her ability: she's missing for essentially all of WoR and a significant chunk of Oathbringer. This puts her somewhat behind despite her massive initial lead, something she acknowledges in Oathbringer:
QuoteIvory looked toward the growing stack of notes in the corner; one of the pens had finished writing. Jasnah rose to change the paper; Shallan had rescued one of her trunks of notes, but two others had gone down with the sinking ship. Fortunately, Jasnah had sent off these backup copies.
Or did it matter? This sheet, encrypted by her cipher, contained lines and lines of information connecting the parshmen to the Voidbringers. Once, she’d slaved over each of these passages, teasing them from history. Now their contents were common knowledge. In one moment, all of her expertise had been wiped away. “We’ve lost so much time,” she said.
Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 477). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Second, not everyone likes Jasnah. As noted above, Kaladin doesn't get along with her very well. Shallan forces herself onto Elhokar's mission team to get away from her. Her highprinces certainly have issues with her policies. Navani is pretty ambivalent considering she's Jasnah's own mother. Dalinar does get along very well with her, but this was noted as far back as TWoK; it's not a sudden development:
Quote“Dalinar?” Navani asked. “Are you going to answer me? Why is it you trust my daughter so much when others almost universally revile her?”
“I consider their disdain for her to be a recommendation,” he said.
“She is a heretic.”
“She refused to join any of the devotaries because she did not believe in their teachings. Rather than compromise for the sake of appearances, she has been honest and has refused to make professions she does not believe. I find that a sign of honor.”
Navani snorted. “You two are a pair of nails in the same doorframe. Stern, hard, and storming annoying to pull free.”
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 427). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
It may feel like everyone has a high opinion of Jasnah in RoW, but this is mainly because she's interacting primarily with Dalinar and Wit, and to a lesser degree the other monarchs.
Finally, Jasnah's not immune to making mistakes, and there's plenty of things that she's not necessarily an expert in; the most immediately applicable is that she's not particularly good in personal combat. Her surgebinding makes her incredibly lethal, but she's not able to automatically become proficient in battle in general:
Quote“I’ve read about it, you know,” she eventually said. “The feeling you get out there. The focus that you need to adopt to cope with it, to keep moving. Simply doing your job. I don’t have their training, Wit. I kept getting distracted, or frightened, or confused.”
He tapped her hand. The closed left gauntlet, where she held the Edgedancer’s topaz. She stared at it, then drew in the Light. That made her feel better, but not all of her fatigue was physical.
“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Fundamentally, though, Jasnah is awesome because she's the best person to be leading your country.
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13 minutes ago, Mardragon said:
I think ‘femalen’ is just the Singer word for female’. I don’t think it just refers to singer females. While it’s usually used to refer to female singers, I think that’s just because that’s their word. From a Singer’s POV a human woman would be a human femalen. So the voice of Cultivation or The Nightwatcher would be interpreted as femalen from Venli’s POV. I don’t think any shapeshifting was required.
Singers seem to define four genders, with 'female' and 'male' being the reproductive genders:
QuoteA group of three mateforms— two female, one male— played in the water, splashing at one another. Barely clothed, they dripped with what others would be drinking.
...
It was an excuse. Just as those who took on mateform used their form as an excuse for their inane activities. When a worker, Eshonai had trained herself to confront when necessary. She’d even been a mate once, and had proven to herself firsthand that one could indeed be productive as a mate, despite . . . distractions.
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 166). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
That said, it's unclear whether or not Venli could have differentiated a 'female' and 'femalen' voice, and could have been using it in the generic sense rather than the specific gender. My personal theory? The voice is BAM.
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1 hour ago, Honorless said:
A tie but requiring both parties to lose... how would that be possible?
More specifically, having neither party win, since only the conditions for winning are stated. What this would exactly entail is strongly dependent on the actual nature of the contest.
WRT the comment about the timing being a possible loophole, the point was that those terms were not explicitly stated in the agreement (I agree that the epigraphs, among other things, makes it unlikely for that technicality being exploited/exploitable). When looking at the technical wording of the agreement, there are a lot of possible loopholes; this is why I believe we need to focus on passage reflecting Taravangian's thinking to decide whether a given loophole is likely to be the specific loophole Taravangian was considering.
Specifically, it's a subtle option that his predecessor overlooked. So in order for a loophole to be admissible, it needs to be something Rayse wouldn't have considered/dismissed out of hand but Taravagian would be okay with. The two options that seems the most likely to me is either something that put Rayse at risk personally (given how risk adverse he was) or something that his pride wouldn't allow (as Hoid says, this is why Rayse tried to make Dalinar his champion - he wanted to make a statement, not just win).
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If anyone is representative of Honor + Odium, it's Kaladin, for sure. He's the closest thing to the incarnation of War in the series.
There's the most obvious scene:
QuoteThe Pursuer appeared above Stormblessed. The Fused yanked a sharpened carapace spur off his arm, then—holding it like a dagger—he grabbed the kneeling man by one shoulder.
Kaladin Stormblessed looked up and let loose a howl that seemed to vibrate with a hundred discordant rhythms. Venli attuned the Lost in return.
He re-formed and tried to grab Stormblessed again. But there was no contest now. Kaladin moved like the wind, fast and flowing as he rammed his dagger through the Pursuer’s arm, causing him to shout in pain. A knife toward the face followed, and the Pursuer ejected yet again. No one chanted or shouted this time, but when Stormblessed turned around, Venli saw his face—and she immediately attuned the Terrors.
His eyes were glowing like a Radiant’s, his face a mask of pain and anguish, but the eyes … she swore the light had a yellowish-red cast to it. Like … like …
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
There are also multiple places with phrasing like Kaladin being born to the spear:
QuoteOf all the recruits in his cohort, he had learned the quickest. How to hold the spear, how to stand to spar. He’d done it almost without instruction. That had shocked Tukks. But why should it have? You were not shocked when a child knew how to breathe. You were not shocked when a skyeel took flight for the first time. You should not be shocked when you hand Kaladin Stormblessed a spear and he knows how to use it.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 398-399). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
and occasions where he's essentially in the zone and untouchable in combat:
QuoteWind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack— didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.
Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt— impossibly— that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 670-671). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Zahel rejects him from the ardents because Kaladin enjoys fighting too much:
Quote“It wasn’t a fight about winning or losing,” Zahel said. “You’re not unwelcome because you lost; you’re unwelcome because you don’t belong with us.” He whipped a sheet in the air, then pinned it in place.
“You love the fight, Kaladin. Not with the Thrill that Dalinar once felt, or even with the anticipation of a dandy going to a duel. “You love it because it’s part of you. It’s your mistress, your passion, your lifeblood. You’d find the daily training unsatisfying. You’d thirst for something more. You’d eventually turn and leave, and that would put you in a worse position than if you’d never started.”
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Which is a call back to:
QuoteKal growled in anger and pain, snatching his quarterstaff from the ground and leaping at Jost. The older boy cursed, stumbling backward as he raised his weapon. Kal bellowed, slamming his weapon forward.
Something changed in that moment. Kal felt an energy as he held the weapon, an excitement that washed away his pain. He spun, smashing the staff into one of Jost’s hands.
Jost let go with that hand, screaming. Kal brought his weapon around and slammed it into the boy’s side. Kal had never held a weapon before, never been in a fight any more dangerous than a wrestling match with Tien. But the length of wood felt right in his fingers. He was amazed by how wonderful the moment felt.
...
But that one moment holding the quarterstaff sang to him. A single moment of clarity in an otherwise confusing world.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 257). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Also, if we accept Odium has shades of passion:
QuotePassionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.
He was. Like the wind and rocks were.
Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 936). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
In a way, Kaladin taking up Honor and Odium is probably the most obvious result (almost too obvious). He's essentially been training for it his entire life - managing his aggression and desire for combat, mastering his hatred and thirst for vengeance and channeling his passion into something positive. But at his core, Kaladin is about conflict, and it's always been at odds with his Honorable aspect (his clash with Lirin can be seen as shades of this).
What I sort of expect is that the Shards will all get blended - resulting in War, Science, and Freedom.
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Short answer, they did take a peek at them:
QuoteBut was that really true? Or could she, with study, eventually discover their secrets? For years, they’d assumed no spren were trapped in Soulcasting devices. But with the Oathgates, Navani could travel into Shadesmar—and everything in the Physical Realm reflected there. Human beings manifested as floating candle flames. Spren manifested as larger, or more complete versions of what was seen in the Physical Realm.
Soulcasters manifested as small unresponsive spren, hovering with their eyes closed. So the Soulcasters did have a captured spren. A Radiant spren, judging by their shape. Intelligent, rather than the more animal-like spren captured to power normal fabrials.
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
This is as much detail as we get, I believe. This is from early in the book, before Navani realizes that the Soulcasters are actually the spren themselves, and that soulcasters don't have captured spren.
QuoteRaboniel hummed a rhythm. “I am a quick learner.” She gestured to the notes on Navani’s desk. “In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”
Navani blinked as the implications of that sank in. Suddenly a dozen loose threads in her mind tied together, forming a tapestry. An explanation. That was why the fabrials of the tower—the pumps, the climbing mechanisms—didn’t have gemstones with captive spren. Storms … that was the answer to Soulcasting devices.
Awespren burst around her in a ring of blue smoke. Soulcasters didn’t hold spren because they were spren. Manifesting in the Physical Realm like Shardblades. Spren became metal on this side. Somehow the ancient spren had been coaxed into manifesting as Soulcasters instead of Blades?
Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So not quite like deadeye, but in a coma-like state instead.
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Quote
“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-Gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!”
—Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.
Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 909). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
So it doesn't really seem like a new thing for Odium; one of his presumed Unmade seems to do the same thing. I'm not sure that it is exactly a 'numbing', but just removal (or transference) of specific emotions. Moash still seems motivated to e.g. kill Roshone on his own volition.
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I think the primary discriminator is that it has to be something Taravangian saw that Rayse did not.
There are a lot of possible ways to game the contest (example: pick Moash as the champion, have Gavinor attack him, violating the 'otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces' clause). But the implication is that Taravangian saw a loophole that Rayse didn't see. Since they have access to the same powers, essentially, I think it has to be something that Rayse would not have considered as being viable, but Taravangian is willing to entertain.
Given that constraint, I think the most likely answer is something that risks Taravangian personally. We know from several passages that Rayse is not willing to risk himself - he is willing to wait for a sure thing rather than take a risk. Taravangian on the other hand is all about risking himself to achieve his goals.
We know that Odium can break his word. It just puts him in a vulnerable state, which is why Rayse never would have done it. But if the Vessel is willing to take such a risk, it's something Odium could do. I think this is the big assumption that everyone is making - that Odium cannot break his word, rather than he is not willing to break his word.
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Does anyone still want a Moash redemption arc?
in Stormlight Archive
Posted · Edited by Seloun
Short answer: Yes, I'd love to see a Moash redemption arc, as much as I'd like to see the redemption arc of any character.
Longer answer: I think the moment one decides someone is beyond redeeming, one decides that person is no longer worth considering as person (i.e., they are no longer worthy of being allowed to make choices). There are a couple of ways to arrive at this conclusion; the first and probably more basic argument is the sunk costs: no matter what the person may have done in the past, it doesn't negate the potential good they can do in the future. Ultimately, from a utilitarian perspective, it comes down to whether or not one thinks the person will do good in the future; their past actions merely to serve as evidence whether that is likely.
It's worth noting that a 'redemption arc' doesn't mean good things happen to Moash (quite the inverse, actually, it would be Moash making good things happen to other people). Instead, it should involve him somehow accepting the consequences for his actions and acting to redeem or mitigate their effects. It doesn't even have to be very long - Moash realizing at the last moment how really harmful his actions were (and that they were his decisions) and stepping off Urithiru to prevent Odium's victory would certainly qualify (if somewhat trite).
I think that forgiveness is independent to redemption. It's not necessary to forgive Moash's actions to want him to find redemption; this is I think actually the strongest form of redemption stories (a variation of 'what are you in the dark?' in that the person chooses to atone despite no expectations of forgiveness - instead, they choose because it's the right thing). And if someone wants to argue that Moash's actions aren't forgiveable, I wouldn't contest it - but that is not the same as not wanting to see him find redemption. Yes, the dichotomy can be mentally uncomfortable - wanting to kill bad!Moash while cheering for good!Moash - but the way to think about it is probably to accept they are literally different people, though linked together in a specific intimate way; good!Moash still inherits the consequences of the decisions made by bad!Moash (think inheritance, or as a guardian assumes responsibility for a ward's actions). But good!Moash chooses differently than bad!Moash going forward.
Of course good/bad is an oversimplification; the devil lies in the details. But the point is that being a person means that they can choose to be better in the future (I consider this to be part of the definition of being a person, so I mean this exactly), and I like seeing believable examples that allow me to stretch the boundaries of what I'm willing to accept as a person.