Salkara

7 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Now that we've seen Azure's "Shardblade" though... It's nothing like Nightblood. And another shard would definitely explain the extra investiture. 

Yeah, Azure's sword and the WoB about needing more than 1,000 Breaths are what led me to the question. Also, the new WoB about red eyes meaning one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's Investiture.

Thought I'd throw this one in here.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4067

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yulerule

*Written:* A thousand breaths doesn't seem to be that much--the God King has tens of thousands. Would a piece of stone, wood, cloth, or plain metal that has a thousand breaths be as Invested as Nightblood, or is there something more?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it needs more. Needs more.

*Writes:* Needs more.

So, it may have taken 1,000 Breaths to Awaken Nightblood, but it's more invested than some other object that had 1,000 Breaths stored in it.

Fun thought: If Nightblood had eyes, would they be red?

Like many here have stated, I initially found the reason for the Recreance to be a bit anticlimactic. I, like many here have also stated, quickly came to the conclusion that there's more to this than we were told. So what could be the "more" that we don't know? I have a couple ideas.

My first idea is that Melishi and his strike team destroyed Stormseat when they captured Ba-Ado-Mishram. This is predicated on the theory that Melishi's capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram is what placed most of the parsh population into permanent slaveform. In Eshonai's interludes, she notes that Narak is where they were separated from their gods. As we know that Narak is the ruins of Stormseat, it's not difficult to conclude Melishi and his strike team were responsible for the Shattered Plains.

Perhaps the survivors from the strike team tried to hide their responsibility for the destruction and blamed the parsh and/or the Unmade. Chapter 38 of the in-world Words of Radiance does indicate that some "discovery" led to the Recreance. In any case, at a time when the Radiants were divided because Honor was saying surgebinders would destroy Roshar, Melishi destroyed an entire city (and it's inhabitants).

Would that be enough to cause all members of 9 out of 10 orders to break their oaths? I doubt it, and this leads to my second idea: The Recreance was motivated not by agreement among all but rather a decision to act by some. I believe a Radiant civil war of sorts occurred. The WoR epigraphs do speak of an "act of great villainy" which many attributed to a "sense of inherent betrayal" and fighting which "destroy[ed] much of the membership."

Eventually, I assume that around 300 Windrunners and Stonewards remained (and the Skybreakers in hiding). Perhaps they were on the side which wanted to break all bonds, or perhaps they were appalled by the in-fighting. Either way, they believed that humans couldn't be trusted with surgebinding. After tying up some loose ends, I believe they traveled to Feverstone Keep and killed their spren, as we see in one of Dalinar's visions.

Thoughts?

Well the 5th Ideal for the Skybreakers is about the Radiant becoming an embodiment of law. We don't really know what that entails except that Nale felt it gave him some "leniencies," but other orders may follow the same pattern (i.e. Windrunners will embody honor, Lightweavers will embody truth, Elsecallers will embody knowledge, etc.).

As for what it grants... I don't think we really know. Notum mentioned to Kaladin that there were methods the honorspren could do to remove his Nahel bond up until the Fifth Ideal, so I assume that it makes the bond permanent in some way. I'm thinking this probably means a complete merging of the spren and Radiant. I believe we've seen the progression of this with Kaladin. As his bond with Syl has strengthened, she's become more than just more sapient. In OB, she started having access to Kal's memories from before the bond, and when he mentioned this to her, she shrugged it off as though it didn't really matter. Also, when Kaladin is attracting windspren on Notum's ship, he's able to hear Syl in his head which is a surprise to both of them.

If the 5th Ideal does completely merge spren and Radiant, I have to wonder about the pros and cons. Spren are immortal and humans are not, so what is the life expectancy of a full Radiant? If 5th Ideal Radiants are each fully bonded to a Splinter, are they essentially a mini Heralds? What happens if/when the full Radiant dies (in battle, by accident, from old age, etc.)?

If I had to answer those questions with the tiny bits of information we do have, I'd say: (1) full Radiants probably have extended but not eternal lifespans; (2) yes, they are probably mini Heralds; (3) the spren dies as well, and the Investiture floats around in Shadesmar until it coalesces in those areas where baby spren come from.

My $0.02: I think that the Fused were quite overpowered in OB because Odium was playing a no-holds-barred game. As Vargo mentions in their meeting, Odium has agreed to a contest of champions and now must act through his agents. I assume this means that things like a stationary Everstorm during battles are on hold. Fused probably won't have unlimited voidlight during battle anymore. I also assume that there will be similar restrictions on Dalinar generating a perpendicularity during battle.

On 11/26/2017 at 8:40 PM, kaellok said:

Air superiority is the primary way that the US military controls a battlefield.  The enemy has done a fairly poor job of this so far, but even so it has enabled them to completely change the nature and course of battles.  It's implied that the battle for Kholinar was largely a one-sided rout because of the fliers, while it would have been a much more even engagement without them (even given the thunderclasts would have ensured their victory, if they only had ground troops it would have been bloody and costly).

And this is the meta reason that Nale and the majority of the Skybreakers are siding with Odium. If all the flying Radiants sided with the good guys, future battles would be pretty lopsided. And to preemptively respond the argument that "all the Radiants fought for the good guys in the past," I'd argue that previous battles were pretty lopsided in favor of the Heralds and Radiants. I mean, there was less than a year in between the last two Desolations, and yet 9 of the 10 Heralds managed to survive the final Desolation.

15 hours ago, Exalted Dungeon Master said:

What about the one that Moash stabbed that failed to heal from the spear wound? He noted that Kaladin would have healed from something like that, and we've seen Fused heal at other points in Oathbringer, so did she just not have to ability, or was she out of Voidlight?

Don't have my book on hand, but isn't it possible that he stabbed Leshwi in her gemheart? I think Kaladin did the same when defending the wall in Kholinar. If we assume that singers/Fused store Investiture in their gemhearts, we can also assume that cracking or shattering the gemheart will result in an immediate loss of most or all stored Investiture.

7 hours ago, echaozh said:

The  Unmade were made and then unmade. Perhaps they were unmade by Odium, but made by another, say Honor or Cultivation?

Or made by Adonalsium.

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

There are plenty of characters Sanderson writes who don't get romantic partners

...

I really strongly disagree with the idea that romance is the way to connect to characters?

...

I really think she doesn't need [a romantic partner], and if Jasnah ends up with a man, I'll be really disappointed.

Alright, in parts to this doesn't take too long:

1. Please name a major character who doesn't get a partner and also does not end up dead (e.g. sorry Dox).
2. Are you disagreeing that readers connect to characters through emotion, that relationship are a good method of displaying emotions, or both?
3. No, she doesn't need one. Neither did a whole host of other characters, but they're better off for it.
   Spoiler

   Did Wayne really need to get frisky with a kandra? Did Marasi really need Allik? No, but they're both more fleshed out characters because of the emotions we get to see.

    I'm not saying that Jasnah will have a sappy love story. I highly doubt she will. However, she clearly has emotions in this area, based on her "some men" comment and the reaction to Amaram. Unless she pulls an Eshonai, there's going to be some sort of resolution to this part of her character. It will probably involve her having feelings for another character in some capacity, and since this is a Sanderson series, the ending is probably going to be happy (again, unless she ends up dead).

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1 hour ago, RenegadeShroom said:

First off, I didn't claim that she wouldn't have a romance arc, or that it would ruin her as a character. I said that I find it extremely doubtful that she'll have a romance arc with a man. I'd be perfectly happy for her to have a romance with a woman, but the idea of Jasnah being involved with a man is... bizarre and strangely upsetting to even consider. In particular, because this "defrosting the ice queen" trope that I most often see being applied to Jasnah by Jasnadin shippers, really grosses me out. That's a bad trope, and I'd hate for Jasnah to have to undergo it.

Jasnah doesn't need a romantic storyline. And I'm in complete disagreement that a romantic arc, any romantic arc will necessarily make her better, at all. And romance isn't a requirement for relatability and emotion? Jasnah's not emotionless, like people seem to perceive her as, and you seem to be ignoring that one of the most powerful emotional moments in the series involving Jasnah was, as you pointed out, when she decided not to kill Renarin; which has absolutely nothing to do with romance. A character can be fleshed out entirely without romance, because romance is not a necessity for any given individual human being to be an interesting and fully fleshed out person. Strong emotions exist independent of romance! She can be a powerful character, who people connect to and like, through any number of interpersonal relationships and on her own.

All of that is especially relevant to female characters, especially ones like Jasnah, who has so far expressed absolutely zero interest in any romantic or sexual pursuits. There are people like this in real life, and it's not dull or uninteresting, it just is. Forcing a romance on Jasnah just for the sake of having her be in a romance would undermine a lot about her, in particular how absolutely refreshing it is to have a female character who has no interest in romance and who doesn't pursue it and isn't punished by the narrative for doing so. That goes double if she's aroace, and still applies if she's lesbian, for a number of reasons.

I'd also point out that what happened with other Cosmere characters when it comes to romance is not at all relevant to what will happen with Jasnah? She's not any of those characters, and Sazed is a very different person, in very different circumstances from Jasnah, and his feelings on romance aren't an indication of Jasnah's feelings on romance, because they're two different characters. 

First, the Jasnadin thing is mostly a joke because they're the most prominent unpaired characters of opposite sex. I don't think most of us are serious about it.

Second, "defrosting the ice queen" is not how I see a romantic arc happening with Jasnah. In all likelihood, I see the headman's axe headed toward any character she takes a fancy to, so it doesn't really matter if they're a guy or girl because they'll be dead.

Third, no she doesn't need a romantic arc. Many characters don't need one, but they end up getting one because it gives readers a chance to see the character deal with emotions they wouldn't otherwise experience.

Fourth, Jasnah has expressed almost no desire for a relationship, but we've also gotten only a handful of viewpoints for her. Every single main character in a Sanderson novel has had a romantic partner. If Jasnah survives to her book, I bet that she gets one as well.

Fifth, I'd argue that an author having a history of main characters getting a romantic partner by the end of a series (provided they survive) is very pertinent. I think even Jasnah would agree that past actions are the best data for predicting future actions.

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

You copied the wrong WoB over, even if you linked the right one.

Thanks. Fixed it.

13 hours ago, RenegadeShroom said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if Jasnah's attracted to men either romantically or sexually, I'll eat a hat.

A lot of people seem to think Jasnah doesn't need a romantic storyline, but that ignores a pretty general trend in Sanderson novels (also, pretty much every other author too) where main characters get a romantic pairing. I'll spoiler tag this both for length and potential spoilers for those who are for some reason on a spoiler board without having read any other Sanderson stories.

Did I miss any? I think that's pretty much every major character in Sanderson's major works. I will agree that Jasnah comes off as very asexual; however, the same could be said of a certain eunuch during the first book we saw him, and his romantic arc shaped an entire world. I'm not married [2] to the idea that Jasnah will pair off with Kaladin, but she's most likely going to have some sort of romantic arc, eventually. The reason for this is simple: readers connect with characters through emotion, and strong emotions are found in relationships. When did we connect more with Jasnah: when she was lecturing Shallan on Soulcasting, or when she decided not to kill Renarin?

There are numerous ways to do a good romantic plot-line for a character like Jasnah without being a cheesy rom-com, Shadolin-style affair, so I think it's a bit shortsighted to say a relationship will ruin Jasnah as a character. Does she need one? No. Will a well-matched, well-executed romantic arc make her better? Most assuredly.

[1] - Just checking if anybody read this.
[2] - Pun completely intended.

3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I hadn't considered this as him achieving the fifth ideal but that makes the most sense. It might be worth asking Brandon about sometime. Do we know if Bondsmiths would be restricted from getting plate? The conversation with the Stormfather leans towards no but is slightly ambiguous. If he can get plate, it might be evidence against this, since it didn't manifest in that scene.

I'm pretty sure Dalinar is very close to getting his Plate:

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He fell beside the hole’s perimeter, and stretched one hand toward Venli. His other ground against the rock wall, hand scraping the stone. Something flashed around his arm. Lines of light, a framework that covered his body. His fingers didn’t bleed as they scraped the stone.

Shallan was the first to fall for him, but basically all the women are going to have a thing for Kaladin:

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The Windrunner stood like a sentinel, surveying the city. Was that going to become a thing for him? Always standing around up high somewhere?

He is clearly Stormlight Batman, and it's a well known fact that all women have a thing for Batman, even if they publicly say otherwise.

On 11/22/2017 at 8:59 AM, yulerule said:

We're talking about the utility of Nightblood here. I want to take a moment and pause to think about what Nightblood actually does. Iirc, there's a WoB that it destroys the spiritual aspect. In the cosmere there's basically an afterlife where your soul goes - the Spiritual Realm. Spiked people go there, people killed by Shardblades go there, regular deaths go there. 

Does that mean that Nightblood DESTROYS the soul, rather than severing connections? I think it does - "Destroy" was part of it's Intent, after all. 

(Now I'm comparing Nightblood to a Dementor...) Anyway, is it ever morally right to use an unsheathed Nightblood?

First, it's important to note that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond:

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Ward (paraphrased)

When Harmony ascended, I think he said he had trouble seeing what was going on in the Spiritual realm. Does he get better at this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He does. Also it's important to note that the Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond.

Second, Nightblood does destroy the soul since your soul is Investiture:

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senick67 (paraphrased)

My question was since Shardblades can sever your soul and turn it gray. In Warbreaker the priest who held Nightblood and lived his hands were gray. so does Nightblood consume your soul.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes since your soul is investiture.

Third, nobody knows for sure if this means a person won't go to the Beyond:

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Questioner

So, if Nightblood, unsheathed, killed someone, would their soul still go to the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that's gonna be a matter of-- There's gonna be disagreement in the cosmere about that. Nobody has been able to actively test it, because there are certain things you can see, but there are people who are actively discussing this concept.

Questioner

So, no one knows for sure?

Brandon Sanderson

Nobody knows for sure. And I'll just leave it at that. It's an astute question that even Vasher has-- Vasher has his thoughts, but he does not have a definitive answer, and others disagree with him.

So, is it ever morally right to use an unsheathed Nightblood? Probably as much as it is ever morally right to kill someone, but no one really knows.

The bit that I always find interesting about the Voidbinding chart is that Void-versions of Bondsmith and Truthwatcher have no lines connecting to any of the surges.

15 minutes ago, Edvarin said:

I asked for an oath from the book, preferably Bondsmith or Windrunner. He gave me the actual oath, probably because I was vague. It had me guessing whos oath it would be the whole book! It actually lined up with not only Dalinars storyline, but Kaladins and Shallans too. By giving it to me, he threw me a real curveball lol.

 

And yet, that's only half the oath, unless Dalinar spoke two Ideals at once.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Even Adonalsium was shattered by mortals.

Mortals and possibly also immortal dargons.

Reading this thread, I just realized that if Nale has said the Fifth Ideal, he has his Plate, right? So he's got honorblade, shardblade, and shardplate? That's a pretty stacked inventory.

I would say it's likely we've put a bit too much weight on the actual Words and not the meaning behind them. With the Windrunners, we have suffering oaths that also seem to follow a similar structural pattern:

1. Universal Ideal. L>d, s>w, j>d.
2. Ideal of Protection. Who will the Knight defend?
3. Ideal of Emotion. The Knight will protect despite their current emotional state.
4. ??
5. ??

I have a personal theory that the Words matter even less than this. If the spren agrees to the oath, then it's a level up for the Radiant. This is why it was important for Ishar to make all surgebinders (and spren) agree to a codified set of rules. Otherwise, you'd have surgebinders swearing some pretty inane oaths (e.g. "Sure, I only eat chouta on days that end in 'y' ... Thanks for the armor, naco!").

On 11/18/2017 at 10:52 PM, emailanimal said:

 

Or... Venli?

One step ahead of you.

30 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Timeline doesn't fit. Alloy of Law and Stormlight Archive play at the same time. Even if Wayne becomes a Worldhopper he's not gonna be in Stormlight Archive in time.

29 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

But...Cob was there. And Brandon doesn't just double up names like that.

28 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Maybe he accidentally did. Or the timelines changed, but that seems less likely.

I mean, once you create what, a thousand names, something like that, you're probably having a double in there somewhere. Just like if you pick a thousand people in the real world.

Wayne probably won't be in Stormlight (unless he figures out some method of turning time dilation into time travel, which is unlikely); however, Cob could still be a worldhopper. As of 2011, Alloy was supposed to take place a lot earlier than Stormlight (WoB):

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Goron

You've mentioned before that all your books so far are in chronological order (Elantris, the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Stormlight Archive). Alloy of Law takes place about 200 years after The Hero of Ages. (Right?) Does this put it chronologically before or after Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

The Alloy of Law takes place around 300 years after The Hero of Ages and several hundred years before the events in The Way of Kings. That does put it around the same time as Warbreaker.

Around 2012, we got the WoB you linked about Alloy and Stormlight being the same time; however, he's further clarified this in recent years. In 2015, Brandon said that Alloy takes place after Stormlight 5 (WoB):

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Greg Ellner

When does the Wax and Wayne series take place compared to The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

Just after.

Greg Ellner

Thank you! So after Stormlight 10, then comes The Alloy of Law? I have noticed a change in Hoid in these books since.

Brandon Sanderson

Alloy is somewhere after Stormlight 5.

He confirmed this again last year (WoB):

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PhantoMonstrosity

Before Ruin and Preservation showed up on Scadrial, was aluminum already antimagical? Also, is [The Alloy of Law] between Stormlight 5&6?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, [The Alloy of Law] is after Stormlight 5. Specific timing will depend on how long I make the 5/6 gap once I get there.

So it's possible for Cob to travel to Scadrial after the conclusion of Stormlight 5, especially since we've already seen him in proximity to the most prominent worldhopper we know.

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

And age difference might not seem that weird now but would be reeeally weird if both Jasnah and Kaladin survive first half of SA and there will be 15 to 20 years time skip. Kaladin would be in his 30th and Jasnah eh 50th+ if not closer to 60. That would be weird if theyll hook up.

This of course is assuming that surgebinders don't have extended lifespans. We've seen that excessive Investiture can make people live longer on other cosmere worlds (Elantrians, Spook, Awakeners at the fifth heightening, etc.). It's entirely possible that a full Radiant may have a life expectancy in the hundreds of years which would make the age difference between Kaladin and Jasnah much less significant.

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

What do we think the third Bondsmith Spren is, before we go for a fourth? It think I'm giving up on my idea that it was an Adonalsium spren; the prologue now seems obviously referring to Ba-Ado-Mishram as the "Ancient Spren." The way the Radiants seem to refer to Urithiru as "Sibling" in their gemstone recordings make me think the city itself is the third spren.

 

Based upon the Stormfather using a plural pronoun ("they") and said it is slumbering, I think it may have something to do with the Sleepless.

15 minutes ago, JotisMan said:

Hahaha working on it! I'm fine with spoilers but for now I won't seek them out on this ;-)

Well, it's kind of a last-chapter thing. Pretty spoilery. If you want it, it's page 1223 (top half) of the US hardcover. I'd suggest waiting though.

1 hour ago, JotisMan said:

I had a thought while listening to one of Moashe's story lines. Has anyone else thought of the possibility of him becoming the eventual champion for Odium?  I'm seeing him interact with the parshmen and for some reason I keep thinking... Admittedly I'm not all the way through Oathbringer yet. Things could happen to completely refute that. Thoughts?

You should get all the way through Oathbringer. There is an answer of sorts to this, but you'll have to finish the book to get it. However, this is the spoiler forum though, so you can get it spoiled for you if you really want.

It'll probably come to a head when he next sees Moash/Vyre (a person he will want to save but can't).

2 hours ago, Havoc said:

Oh, I agree that it's incredibly unlikely that Shalash = Shashara. I just thought that it's interesting for that connection to be drawn in the book so explicitly.

 

I think it's probably just a nod to this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3908