hskeeter

This is a big play between Todium and Hoid,  Never underestimate Hoid!  He is very crafty and while he does not know what Todiim exist at the end of the book he most likely will figure it out quckly.

Lift would be fun to meet and hang out with. 

Adolin from he power and world influence.

Sorry but Honor is shattered, so there is no shard to be had.  One would have to collect all the pieces and put them back together to bring back the shard of Honor, and I am fairly sure Cultivation has some of Honor's splinters.

So to me the Glyph on the Banner does not look to me to be the tower glyph.  Too many differences and the illustrator is very good at his job.  The Crown part being the semi-circular line, I might buy that.  The spears are the interesting part.  We can see there are at least 4 spears, two above the and two below the semi-circular shape.  What do the other lines represent?  More spears?  Part of the crown?  Or do they combine with the semi-circular line to show the walls of a tower or cliff.  Too many unknowns.

I agree with the idea that the rattle has most likely been fulfilled by Kaladin in RoW.   The title of Leader; Protector of the Tower, Crown of the Windrunners, the Spear of Bridge 4,  

Tin, increasing he senses seems like it would be very useful.  Second choice is Brass as soothing people would get you out of some bad situations.

Just a wild thought that came to mind could 16 be the 16th Shard?  We know nothing about the last 2.

My guess is Hoid was trying to find out if the vessel of Odium had changed, which is why he was willing to confront Odium.  

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why would he have even the slightest reason to believe this?

2 possible reasons, Fortune lead him to this conclusion or as connected to other vessels and worldhoppers he does have a lot of connections.  The biggest clue is that in the first go around he does state that the encounter went as he expected.  He has been avoiding Odium for a long time and why else would he confront Odium at this time, just to gloat?  I really doubt Hoid would risk his life to just gloat and tease one of the most dangerous beings in the Cosmere.

My guess is the second set might talk about the history of Ashyn, in the form of why and how the humans came to Roshar with Odium.  It has been mentioned by WoB that Lift will be a focus in flashbacks in the second half ( at least book 6) of the Stormlight Archive.  What this implies for books 6-10 is anybody's guess. but a select few of Brandon and his friends.  Some off world influences from organizations with off worlders and possibly more talk of the cosmere in book 10, assuming Jasnah is still focus and she and Hoid are still working together. Better guesses will be made after book 5 is published.

Welcome and have fun posting!

2 points I would like to point out in this discussion.

1) WoB are not cannon, he reserves the right to change things.  But he did say after WoR was published that Todium did not read the memories by removed them.

2) The second time around a coin was missing and IMHO this is where Hoid was storing his recent memories, using a known technique of Breaths to do so.  Thus, how he noticed their was something different.  Also, remember Hoid can store his breaths/memories in something and keep them safe somewhere else.  I believe this is how he was on the boarder of pitch purfect.

My guess is Hoid was trying to find out if the vessel of Odium had changed, which is why he was willing to confront Odium.  Todium realized Hoid figured out Rayse was no longer the vessel, after he excised the memories, and thus needed to turn back time to try again.  The second time went as Todium expected, from his point of view.  I also think Hoid is figuring out that his memories where stolen and this is not something Rayse would do. 

Lots of good suggestions and logic behind them.  I do have a the feeling the 5th ideal is the definitive statement of how the Knight interpret their own role in the order.  I also believe honor needs to be tied into it somewhere.  Here is my current guess.

"I will teach people to protect themselves and others with honor and integrity."

On 3/27/2021 at 1:37 PM, Ixthos said:

But what has Wit's goal?

He didn't give any information other than a few quick taunts to Odium. That's it. So what was his goal? What, in setting, was the reason Wit risked making himself visible to Odium, other than to thumb his nose at him, now that he is safe? And those hardly were outstanding insults. Or was that the point, to give poor insults because he could?

What do you think the reason Hoid did this? What did he hope to achieve?

I believe Wit's goal was to see the Rayse reaction to the agreement, and if he could get some advance info on who the champion would be.  While I believe Hoid is ok with whatever happen's to Dalinar, he does want to make sure Odium is held to the Rosharan system and thus Hoid will be able to travel safely in the rest of the cosmere.  I doubt he plans on staying in Roshar for 1000 years, but I do believe he wants the human/singer problem solved and to make sure there is not a repeat of Ashyn. 

21 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't think the story needs Odium to stick around (at least in an active capacity like it was in the last couple books) to maintain a conflict. Even without the shard, there's still the millennia of violence that would prevent the singers and humans from reconciling and creating an easy peace. Not to mention, there's no way Narak is big enough for all the singers across the entirety of Roshar to settle there, and many of them would probably want to stay in the lands they claimed while serving Odium. It's pretty unlikely that there's just gonna be a clean peace once Odium is defeated.

They can fight without him, as they did during the False Desolation, and with Ba-Ado-Mishram likely to make a return in book 5, she could give them access to the Regal forms of power once again, even if they can't gain the Fused brands. Not to mention, with the recent turn of the Lightspren, it's possible other spren might decide that they want to support the singers' independence.

IIRC the agreement differences between if Odium wins of if Dalinar wins is mostly how land is split up and if Odium is on Braize or Roshar.  In either case Odium is still in the system and will have some influence on the people of Roshar.  There is plenty to write about on the Singer/Human interaction for the 5th book and the Second arc of 5 books.  I really doubt the 5th book will only be 10 Roshar days in duration.  They are shorter days.  

8 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

My unsubstantiated hunch is that Cultivation regrets the Shattering and is working to remedy it in some way--Rayse as the vessel of Odium would have always been an impediment to that goal; revenge just strikes me as too narrow when it comes to someone of her vision.

Which "Shattering" are we talking about?  Would it be possible to put Honor back together and combine him with Cultivaion?

Let's not forget Odium is a shard and thus has a lot of power and capabilities.  WOB in Livestream 23 did state "he (odium/todium) did actually remove and excise a little bit of Breath."

One wonders if Cultivation's intents are what the 5th book is really about.  Seems to me people forget Roshar was Honor and Cultivation's planet, then Odium brought the Humans to cause chaos after destroying Odium's original planet.  It is implied Honor and Cultivation where "involved", so I believe she is plotting revenge on Odium and will splinter him (as potentially alluded to in the vision.  Keep in mind there are many types of swords, and it could be just symbolism as could the black arrow (just indicating the black thorn?).  The trick to foreshadowing is to not be obvious, but to leave enough so the readers go "aha" when they see it fullfilled. 

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Odium doesn't have to be the Villain of the back five, they are basically different series

43 minutes ago, Waffles said:

Thats a good point.

While this idea doesn't have a lot of traction on these forums, the first five books basically having a mistborn/gurren lagan style twist is a pathway for the story and is definitely something Brandon has possibly hinted at.

I agree totally, especially if Todium does not win the contest, he would then be on Braize for a thousand years IIRC.

The clues suggest the Heralds will have a lot to do with the second set of 5 books.

A couple of quick comments on this conversation.

1 WOB has stated that while one can store memories in breaths, others can not peak at them only destroy them.

2 there are several things different the second time around with the Wit/Todium encounter; Design is not present, Hoid's coordination is off, and he is missing a coin, perfect pitch is missing.

Big question to me is did Todium jump Hoid back a little in time to reset the conversation or did he just get rid of the memories? Seems to be a hard question to answer.as Hoid does seem to start again in a different place with design missing, but did not notice the perfect pitch loss until the end and how did Todium know to delete the correct amount of memory?

Second question is did the ploy of Todium to keep Hoid from knowing the change in Vessel work?  .

On 3/21/2021 at 8:02 AM, Emurii said:

Yes, but Investiture is not physical matter. It can't be directly destroyed, and when it's co-opted, we see red show up. If Odium could just run around zapping out everyone's Investiture, this battle would be pretty easy. 

I googled again and there's a great thread here rehashing all of this. Tl:dr; most likely explanation is that the breaths were stored in a physical object (one of the coins? It felt like he didn't have both anymore) and that object was taken. 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93219-hoidodium/

Investiture is more like power/energy.  It fuels magic/life. Not sure it can be destroyed, but it can be used and no longer available.  Example is stormlight being used to heal someone or make a person move faster.

5 hours ago, Josh L. said:

5th Ideal: ???  Again, I think it comes down to being able to prioritize who one can protect.  Lirin decided to prioritize Roshone over Rillir, despite knowing what the inevitable fallout would be. 

This to me points in the direction of cost to one's self.  5th Ideal being " I will protect no matter what the cost"

4 hours ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

as strange as it is to say, Szeth might have the most positive interaction in Book 5 with the person who killed him

Szeth is going to be the flashback focus character, so it seems unlikely he will die early in the book.  Unless of course he is the one who is Odiums champion and looses!

On 3/22/2021 at 0:24 PM, Waffles said:

A Fused Dalinar would be absolutely a masterpiece fallen hero character.

Win or loose Dalinar will stay a Human.  Toadi is all about humans surviving and now ruling across multiple worlds in the cosmere.  . 

On 3/23/2021 at 6:40 PM, Quick Ben said:

I think this option going forward would prove the most interesting narratively.

And give the most scope going forward.

Especially seeing as how the fight should be over fairly early in the book.

I am just curious why Odium would not choose a Herald as his champion.  They seem to have always been associated with him and are both legendary fighters and leaders of men.

Saj-Anat as she is actively fighting Odium, and helping both the singers and the humans.