LuckyJim

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The RPG is in spoiler period - Please keep information in the appropriate section, or use appropriate spoiler tags. 

I assumed including the fact that this was based on information from the RPG in the title, as well as using “Stormlight rpg” as tag was the appropriate spoiler tag. Is there anything I should change, or does the whole post need to be moved?

Now that the RPG is officially released and we know the basics of Willshaper ideals, I thought it would be fun to theorize on what Venli's progress as a Willshaper could be in the back half. This isn't so much a prediction as it is half speculation, half fanfic based on what I'd like to see from Venli moving forward. That being said, here it is.

Third ideal: I will fight oppression, even if that oppression comes from within (a sample ideal taken shamelessly from the player handbook)

Now, the obvious next step would be to find a group Venli doesn't like and have her fight their oppression. Perhaps a group of humans suffering under Fused/Retribution's rule. I think that's really boring though, moreover, I don't think that's an issue Venli has to deal with. She already had her second oath rejected because she didn't help a human child, and her whole arc in RoW was helping the humans during the Urithiru occupation. She's already gotten over the flaws that were preventing her from acting, and 10 years from now she'll probably be even more put together. Instead, I think the oppression Venli has to fight, is her own oppression of herself. Venli still has a lot of guilt for her actions, even though everyone she cares about is willing to look past them and accept that she's trying to do better. I think it would be interesting if this guilt holds her back from growing as a Radiant. Going from power hungry to feeling she doesn't deserve power and fearing that she might abuse it, to progress she has to learn to forgive herself.

Beyond Venli's own personal growth, however, I think this ideal could also extend to her relationship with the listeners. The listeners feared Odium's influence so much that they cut themselves off from progressing as a society rather than touch anything close to Odium. Suppressing their feelings, relationships, rigidly holding to tradition rather than innovate or experiment. Venli's desire to bring back the forms wasn't just out of personal ambition, but a genuine and justified desire to see the listeners regain what they'd lost when separating from Ba-Ado-Mishram. Through this third oath, Venli could finally see that she really can lead the listeners to recover what they'd lost.

Fourth ideal: I will take responsibility for those I have freed

When she summoned the Everstorm, Venli nearly eradicated the listeners, but she also brought freedom to an entire species of people who would have remained mindless slaves without her intervention. Millions of singers were given their minds back and able to pursue freedom for themselves. This isn't to say what she did was good, but not all of the consequences of her actions were bad. Of course, as a Willshaper, it's not enough to acknowledge that she freed them, she has to help them make the most of that freedom.

In RoW, Venli began teaching singers about the listeners to help give them the confidence to find their own path. It was only a couple dozen singers and she didn't really do much for them, so it could be an interesting arc for her to try again and look beyond the Shattered Plains to help singers across Roshar be able to fully understand their freedom and help them figure out their place with it.

I'm not confident that these will necessarily be Venli's ideals, or even that they will be close to where her arc ends up going. I think it makes sense for her character and could lead to some interesting development, but Sanderson may have different ideas. Regardless, I'm interested to hear thoughts or if people have alternative ideas.

I

44 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe that Moash's crystal eye spikes are a manifestation of Hemalurgy in the same way that there are Lightweaving magics separate from Surgebinding or Awakened objects Invested without a hint of Endowment's Breath.

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Comatose

Kind of a similar question about the Midnight Essence, now that we have seen that crop up in Tress as well as in Stormlight Archive. Is something similar happening with the Midnight Essence? We have also the nightmares, in Yumi, that appear similar, they're also mimicking things.

Brandon Sanderson

So, there's a couple of things getting interwoven here. The actual idea of Midnight Essence is a concept like Lightweaving that predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, that various magic systems are basically "borrowing" a law of the cosmere and creating a parallel effect from the same basis, if that makes any sense.

Yumi is a little distinct from that. It's feeling similar; I would not call it true Midnight Essence. It's an awful lot more like a Lightweaving that has--because Lightweavings can have mass to them, because investiture can have mass to it--so you're looking a little bit more like... imagine a bunch of Stormlight becoming tangible, you can touch it, because of a powerful Lightweaving or something like that. Of course, these things all bleed together because I'm using the same fundamental principles to make them. But, for me, Midnight Essence has this personality that comes prefixed. What the Midnight Mother is making, what you're seeing in the Midnight Sea and things like this, you're gonna get some similar personalities to these things, and not necessarily the same with the nightmares.

<snipped for relevance>

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Argent

Staying with Yumi, since we're asking the big questions here. I want to talk about the big machine, the father machine.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

There are some really interesting what feel like intentional parallels between it and Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer.

<snipped for relevance>

Many- I suspect most- MoIs piggyback off of pre existing Cosmere wide Realmatics, putting a new twist on them but maintaining the core components.

I'm not saying that they aren't related, but I don't think Hemalurgy is the "origin", for lack of a better word. I think they are both manifestations of the manipulation of bind points, but Hemalurgy refers to the manifestation specific to Scadrial and Ruin, which relates to metal spikes, stealing powers and the decay of Investiture, while this new thing with the crystals would have some other name.

I'll admit, it's basically quibbling over details, but the reason I think this way is the way the "hema" prefix relates to blood, which specifically refered to how the spikes needed to be stored in blood to prevent the decay of the abilities, and we don't even know if the crystal spikes steal anything that can decay.

I strongly disagree with the idea that it's hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is specifically Ruin's investiture. I think it uses the same principles of channeling Investiture into bind points, but we currently don't know if it has the same elements of stealing abilities, power decay or the significance of blood that would make it hemalurgy.

I suppose its entirely possible that Moash's minor but significant development in Wind and Truth could lead to a new, interesting direction and arc for his character... but that's what I thought going into Wind and Truth in the first place. And four years ago when I picked up Rhythm of War. Quite frankly, I really don't want to get my hopes up only to be disappointed a third time.

It's why I'm hesitant to imagine that his new purpose in life will result in anything particularly interesting. If I had to make a prediction, I think he'll function as sort of an enforcer for the lands that have sword fealty to Taravangian, cutting down any rulers that get too bold, imagining that this makes him some kind of hero for the downtrodden. He probably won't have much direct conflict with the main characters, since they are at something of a ceasefire at the moment and he has to respect the contract. Not to mention, most of them will still be confined to Urithiru. So he will probably be restricted to mostly Interludes. Well, I guess he'll have to find a way to kill at least one more Windrunner.

Another possibility is he could serve as a foil to Lift. Lift is going to be very important in book 6, fittingly as it is her flashback book, and as an Edgedancer her oaths are all about helping the disenfranchised. I expect they will be contrasted as Lift actually being what Moash thinks he is, someone who actually cares about the downtrodden. Most likely with Moash's violence being shown to create more problems for the people he thinks he's helping while Lift actually improves things for them.

I dunno, maybe I'll be surprised, but at this point I feel like I have a good idea of what to expect from Moash.

4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I am curious if moash is told what happened to Kaladin or not. His plans and motivations will likely shift wildly depending on if he finds out or not. If he doesn't, I could see him going offworld due to lack of an emotional anchor, in Kaladin. If he does know Kaladin is alive, I'd assume he'd work towards bringing about a return of the Heralds so that he can get back to annoying Kaladin. Honestly, he would have the potential to be interesting again, if he went offworld. Potential doesn't gaurantee anything, but it could happen. Either way, he's lockstep with Taravangian's nonsense at the moment, as well. 

Moash will probably just believe that Kaladin is somehow alive regardless. Even if everyone on Roshar believes he's dead, Moash will insist he hasn't died until the day he shows up again.

I don't think he'll go off world. There's the whole mess with the time dilation and I don't think Taravangian will be sending out any agents just yet. Regardless, his whole character is tied pretty firmly to Roshar, I don't think he's going to get much development outside of there.

Considering Kaladin started this book saying he wanted to kill Moash so Teft could spit on him in the afterlife, I don't think there's a lot of sympathy there.

Anyway, I don't think Kaladin's going to kill Moash. For one, "revenge bad" is a pretty strong idea in these books, especially in the case of Kaladin and Moash. Kaladin didn't even get to kill Amaram, so it would be weird if he just straight up killed Moash. I also don't think he's going to get a redemption arc though, I think Sanderson has spent too much time making him hateable to do anything complex with him. It's hard to imagine what will be done with him, actually. As others have pointed out, he's just kind of played out as a character and there's not much interesting going on with him. Since he's still alive, I guess he'll have to meet up with Kaladin one last time but die soon after. Maybe Kaladin somehow inspires him to do one decent thing but he immediately gets killed for it.

Spoilers for The Lost Metal

I mean a lot of people probably wouldn't count it because of precedent and who it happens to, but Moash did have his eyes mutilated.

I thought it worked. Taln as a character is basically an empty vessel at this point, his fight scene would just be fanservice and the book is already bloated as is.

I think a pretty important aspect of Hemalurgy is that you're not just ramming spikes into someone. You have to take the traits from someone else first, that's where the name comes from, since the spikes have to be soaked in blood. So... is that happening here? Do some people have Investiture sight that the spikes can take it from, or is this just a completely new form of Invested Art with only superficial similarities to Hemalurgy?

The Willshaper there was Venli, at that time she was bonding a lightspren and was in the process of becoming a Willshaper.

It's possible but we don't actually know what, if anything, a herald would pass down to their offspring. It could just as easily be the result of her exposure to whatever the Unmade influence over the Davar household is.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Thanks. I should have read it. That said, Senne Khald ? Coincidence? Or common ethnicity? Remember that millenia have passed and reduction of a final vowel is fairly common a change.

I wouldn't look to closely into it, it's more likely they're just similar names. I mean if this really is that Senna she'd already be pretty well traveled and at least somewhat familiar with Hoid, so why would she be so shocked that Hoid would ask her to prepare treatises on the different orders of Knights Radiant? It really seems like she's just an ordinary person on Roshar who became an apprentice Worldsinger.

The vibe I got from Sigzil's narration was that at some point while acting as the leader of the Windrunners, he has a massive failure that he can't emotionally recover from. When you consider that the fourth ideal (which he will eventually hit) is "I will accept there will be those I cannot protect", a pretty clear picture starts to form. He broke under the stress of that failure, probably because he got a lot of people killed, and broke his bond as a result of it. It may have even been intentional, as he felt he wasn't worthy of being a Windrunner anymore.

A more interesting question to me is why did he become a Skybreaker? He doesn't seem to have any interest in justice, even in the moments where he starts to act on his oaths and recover his armor, it seems more like he's acting on his Windrunner oaths of protection. I guess he only bonded Aux out of convenience, since it seems like they met through a chance encounter (and from a meta perspective, this lets him keep the surge of Gravitation) but it's interesting to me that despite reaching the fourth ideal as a Skybreaker and supposedly changing a lot in the years between SA and now, he still feels more like a Windrunner.

That being said there is a bit on the Skybreaker blurb on Brandon's website that seems relevant.

Quote

The Skybreakers were the enforcers of the Knights Radiant, often tasked with keeping the peace, policing the other Orders, and making certain that dangerous or dark forces in the world were contained.

It seems pretty relevant, since it seems like he bonded Aux to help keep the Dawnshard safe.

The information about the shards comes from chapter 68: One Family.

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Sharafel. The family's Shardbearer. Upon obtaining this city, by tradition the defeated family had given up the city's Shards for her family to protect and keep.

Also, it does appear that the listeners had only eight sets of shards on the Shattered Plains.

Quote

Not all families had Shardbearers; there were only eight sets among all the listeners. Those who held the proper eight cities were blessed with them, to be wielded only in hunts against greatshells. Those were rare events, where many families would band together to harvest a gemheart for growing crops, then feast upon the slain beast.

So there were eight sets of Shards, and ownership of them was determined by whichever family held one of the ten cities that they were associated with. There doesn't seem to be information about how they came to be there there, so either they found them, or perhaps the Last Legion obtained them at some point and brought them there.

I guess whatever's going on with Venli and the listeners, because they're the only ones I have zero idea of what they're actually going to be doing in book 5, it's hard to tell how much they're even going to be involved in the story since their whole deal is leaving the central conflict of the series.

I just really wanna see more of the singers in general, we got plenty of insight on the Fused in book 4 but I feel like there's still a lot left unexplored on the various singer perspectives within the story.

3 hours ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I think we’ll definitely get a Listener interlude at some point. Does anyone know if Brandon had said anything about Venli being a main POV character? Because if not we’re bound to get a few scenes about her at some point, which will most likely be in interludes.

Brandon has talked about that in one of the updates he posted to reddit. (spoiler tagged for book 5 just in case, but it's only information about the general formatting. There are no major plot details in the tag.)

I'd love it if we got an Interlude from a Skybreaker character, they currently act kinda like a hive mind so it would be interesting to see some individual perspectives within that group and what their personal feelings on their current situation and what they think about the whole conflict.

Similarly, it would be great to explore the perspectives of the freed parsh, or perhaps even a Regal character. We've seen some of the Fused, but this part of Odium's forces is still pretty unexplored.

This is actually explained in the flashbacks, they found them in the 10 cities that were later occupied by the Alethi when they formed their warcamps. There was either a complete set in each of the ten cities, or only eight full sets. I can't remember the full details.

3 hours ago, Elder said:

So I have a question:  what guilt is Moash trying to hide from with Odium’s gift?  He de doesn’t have the same kind of body count Szeth or Dalinar.  I have trouble believing he feels any guilt for killing Elhokar in battle. That was traumatic for us and for Kaladin, not for Moash.  Sure, he feels bad for killing Teft, but he accepted Odium’s gift well before that.  No, the only thing I can think of is he has trouble with the idea that he let Kaladin down.  And it seems Odium’s gift doesn’t even resolve that problem for him.

A lot of it has to do with betraying Bridge 4, he feels like he’s an inherently bad person who screws up anything good in his life. It’s made worse by the internalized prejudice he’s developed from living in a society that hates him for being “too big and too confident” for a darkeyes. Its made even worse when he sees that even in a Fused slave camp, the human prisoners have not only put the lighteyes in a favored position, they put a famously corrupt man in a position of leadership.

All together it makes him conclude that not only is he an inherently bad person, perhaps all of humanity is the same. There’s no point in trying to make things better because humans always try to exploit and be cruel to each other. 

6 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Agreed. This is the other main argument argument against Moash's redemption.  Even when freed of Odium's influence, he makes the same selfish choices. 

It makes no sense that he's denying that he's sorry.  He tries to say that he's sorry but isn't able to bring himself to say the words.  

Admitting he’s sorry would mean admitting he was wrong, that everything he’s done and everything he’s been trying to prove was for nothing, and he’s desperately trying not to do that and rationalize his decisions.

Dalinar had a similar moment after he finds out he burned Evi to death and tries to shift the blame onto her rather than admit he was at fault.

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

That line is exactly why I decided it's denial and not a genuine lack of regret. That's literally Moash feeling terrible, the depths of misery, and unable to admit to himself why he feels bad. He feels bad after killing someone who was a friend; the words he says about why that is are not true. I simply don't take his internal narrative at face value, because his internal narrative is swimming in Odium's no-emotion juices. Brandon has shown complete willingness to have characters' prejudices and lies they believe and misconceptions exist in their internal narrative and I don't think Moash is in any way exempt from that.

Seconding this, Moash spends basically all of RoW lying to himself. Trying to convince himself that he's happy with his choices and that he doesn't have any lingering regrets, which is so obviously wrong that even Rayse calls him out on it (mostly unchained, lol). I don't think he's going to suddenly have perfect clarity on his mental state when he's reeling from a recent defeat and all of the shame, guilt and self hatred he's been pushing away for the past year is coming crashing down on him. Like he can't bring himself to admit that he was wrong, that he's sorry, because doing so would cause him to just completely fall apart on the spot and he's barely holding himself together as is.

Could it happen? Absolutely, Moash is a fictional character after all. He'll be whatever he's written to be.

Should it happen? I would argue yes, I think it opens up a lot of interesting story telling opportunities, chances to explore the themes of the series and play with viewpoints on the world and the evolving dynamics as things continue to change.

Will it happen? I highly doubt it. It kind of feels like Brandon has always written Moash to be a jerk, even back in WoK when he was Kaladin's buddy. I don't expect him to move the character beyond audience hate sink.

Moash and Venli are characters I have kind of complicated feelings on, but they are the ones I think about the most and the ones I'm most anticipating seeing more of in the next books, so I suppose they'd be my favorites.

Adolin too, in a much more straightforward and uncomplicated way. I just really like his vibe, I sort of picked him as my favorite basically as soon as he was introduced and I've stuck by that ever since.

On 2/15/2023 at 9:48 AM, Olmund said:

I think something similar to this has been asked before -- can't find the WoB. You're asking because Brandon has decided that godmetals can be burned by anyone, right? ...or at least both Lerasium and Atium. I think that's a silly change to the canon, BTW-- if Lerasium alloys can be burned by anyone, then adding electrum to Atium shouldn't make it unusable. Brandon's just trading one arbitrary decision for another arbitrary decision, imo.

I'm more wondering if it could potentially be weaponized. Like if you could use a shardbead as a sort of spiritual poison.

I think the important thing is that the shard weapon enters the body. Yes, that's basically what "piercing skin" means, but my though here is that it has to do with Perception. Essentially, the physical body acts as a sort of barrier containing the spiritual body, because most people imagine the soul being contained in the body. Therefore, if a shardweapon is going to have any effect on the spiritual body, it has to go through the physical first.

As for what would happen... maybe its sort of deadening that spreads outward from the point of impact. Like rather than a spiritual limb being severed, it gets crushed.

Also, here's an interesting idea. What if you could get someone to swallow a shard that had been summoned as a small bead?