Vindicator

6 hours ago, Argent said:

So, a more complete signing report will come later (I haven't even checked my audio, but there were better recorders, so I'll probably let their owners post the stuff), but I wanted to drop in and say that - as usual - the signing was a blast. We were a bit short on time (library was going to close 3 hours into the event), so many of us got only one or two questions in during the signing line... but then we also essentially replaced the general Q&A with Cosmere questions, so that helped. 

Oh, and Brandon also hung out with a lot of us for like an hour after the event, outside, in the freezing Chicago night, answering questions and RAFOing only rarely. Let me tell you, my friends, too much of a good thing is not a good thing. I was not prepared for this many questions. I still missed a lot of what you asked me to ask (I just didn't think to put so many questions on my printout, and I was holding my phone to record so I couldn't browse the forums), but we do have a lot of information about the Cosmere works. Not as much about specifics, mostly theory, but still a lot of stuff. For now, off the top of my head, I'll just drop a few:

• Reyse/Odium went after Ambition first because of the nature of Ambition's Shard, not because any grudge against its Vessel or anything. Odium was afraid that Ambition (being ambitious) could become a rival of his.
• Honor's perpendicularity is mobile (but RAFO on whether it's in the highstorms).
• The Arcanum Unbounded essays were written roughly at the same time, long before Sixth of the Dusk (but after all the other stories).
• In the Words of Radiance epilogue Hoid is talking to a cremling and a songbird (?) while he is waiting for Jasnah to show up; the cremling is part of a Dysian Aimian, and Hoid knows it. 100% credit to @Zmann966 for both recalling this event, and asking the question.
• Wax's Resonance is (kind of) his steel bubble. Brandon's answer was a little more complicated and convoluted, but that's the gist of it. Wayne's is a RAFO, as is Lift's / the Edgedancers'.
• Somebody asked if Hoid has any relatives, and got a non-RAFO answer, but because the question is a little more juicy (and potentially rep-worthy), I'll give them a chance to report it. It's not Cosmere-breaking type of stuff, but we all cherish Hoid WoBs

There is a ton more, I am not even remembering the most important reveals, but I am tired and a lot of the remaining stuff is more complicated, so I'll leave it to others and/or the audio.

I was right then, about Wax not having any special kind of Resonance and that his 'perk' was the steel bubble. Would have felt somewhat cheap had he gotten some other special ability.

So Gavilar WAS a potential Bondsmith! That is news to me. I wonder just how much he knew...

Sebarial will in charge of commerce (the man is a great businessman) and logistics, I believe. He's got a knack for it. As for Aladar, scouting perhaps? He's a decent general in his own right, albeit not on the Blackthorn's level, and seems to enjoy a challenge. Makes sense he'd want to face the enemy first. 

55 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Just found this one from Out of Excuses:

Not even certain why he RAFOed the one above... A hair-splitting difference between spren reacting and spren being affected?

Emotion spren likely react to a person's emotions being affected. I don't think spren necessarily can be Rioted or Soothed, since they're fragments of a Shard's power. If a normal spren has roughly the same amount of Investiture as a Radiant spren, I would say it's a definite no, given that Shardblades (which are living or dead Radiant spren) are hard to physically manipulate.

So the question should really be 'how much Investiture does a normal spren have, compared to other Invested things in the cosmere?'

I don't think there is anything on the subject of a Shardic force being held by more than one intelligence. However, the original Shattering only created 16 Shards (and Hoid was there), so it seems to cast doubt on such a thing. Personally, I think it can be done, but it would require a very strong Connection between the potential Vessels (like twins, perhaps?). Otherwise it just goes to the most worthy recipient.

Autonomy seems to be a bit of a trickster god, so I'm not surprised she has a ton of alternate identities. 

10 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

So, this gives us then a complete accounting of Honorblades subject to any recent thefts/"recoveries" from Shinovar:

 

•  Nalan: one Honorblade (his own)
•  Kaladin (via Szeth via Shinover): one Honorblade (Jezrien)
•  Shinovar: seven Honorblades (everyone except for Naln, Jez and Tal)
•  Talanel: one Honorblade (his own) - lost in transport (right?)

Pretty much. On another tangent, Shinovar could have ruled the world with those Honorblades. Their restraint is amazing.

18 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

 

What was the original number of Honorblades held in Shinovar? Nine or eight?

 Nine. Nalan initially discarded his too. There is a WoB that states one of the Honorblades was retrieved after the Oathpact was (partially) broken.

27 minutes ago, Argent said:

Man, I am hours behind the first readers, and already I feel like I am falling behind on the discussions!

I'll need to go over my notes for details, but off the top of my (hyped) head:

• I feel really smug for guessing Lift's second Ideal pretty much exactly way way before she said it. I had guessed it would be something like "I will listen to those are unheard" - all this talk about her listening felt a bit heavyhanded, and thus - obvious.
• The art piece for the novella looks great. I was having some difficulty imagining how these... cities in troughs we've heard about would like, so I am glad this settles it. I also think it's a really neat idea to hire all the available Shardblades and cut a new city. It's very much a thing that adds flavor to the world.
• I hope Wyndle never stops grumbling.
• Wyndle was supposed to bond with Ym, that was neat! 
• Seeing a Dysian Aimian - and the one who likely wrote the back cover blurbs of the first two Stormlight books no less - was a nice treat. I can see how some people might've not been enthusiastic about creatures like this walking the earth, and so would've scoured Aimia. 
• Did anyone pick on who Tashi might be? Nale speaks like he knows him. 
•  

That city looks like the Shattered Plains, coincidentally. There's even a Stormseat analogue in the very middle. I'm not sure the Aimian we saw was the one who wrote it; he did say the other Sleepless were more interested in Kaladin, Shallan, Szeth and Dalinar instead of Lift, while he thought differently. Tashi sounds like a name for a Herald. 

8 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

Like I said before, there seems to be contradiction between Nale's belief that Radiants can cause Desolation and him keeping Surgebinders around. because of this contradiction, I assumed that its recent development, when he saw how far Kaladin, Shallan progressed and that he wont be able to kill them alone, so he got backup.

I think it's because Ishar lied to him; of all the Heralds it seems he understands the Oathpact the best. Consider this from TWoK:

Quote

“Leave your sword,” Jezrien said.
“What?”
Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. “I was chosen to wait for you. We weren’t certain if you had survived. A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”
Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”
“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

Since he was patron of the Bondsmiths, it would make sense that he knew far more of it than the other Heralds ever did. This would explain why Nale was keeping his own Surgebinders around while killing others; if he thinks it's tied to the amount of Radiants around, then it would be sensible to keep the ones he's the leader of alive, while cutting down the others that aren't, as Skybreakers follow the law.

8 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

WoB was post-WoR I belive, below is secondary source, I originally saw it somewhere else but dont remember where now

There are some problems with Shallan when it come to her progression. First and most obvious one is that Lightweavers have no specific oaths except first so its all relative.

Second and more important is that Shallan progressed a lot in past, I assume at last up to third Oath equivalent, but then regressed because of repressed memories. In addition her own beliefs messed things too - for example she didnt need 10 heartbeats to summon Patern as weapon, but she believed that she need so he acted like dead blades in that regard.

So progression of Shallan which we see in WoK and WoR is in fact in big part rediscovery for her not first time progression like for Kaladin. My guess is that this is reason why number of truths we saw dont match her Oaths equivalent number.

I will concede this then, although it is strange that Shallan is a step above. But yes, the regression could explain it...

9 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

BTW did you notice that we Lift, when she spoke third Ideal/Oath of Edgedancers there was no cool effect like for Kaladin? I guess in Kaladin case it was so spectacular because of restoration of his bond, but still I was hoping there will be some visual effect for Lift.

I did, and yes that could explain it - when Kaladin swears the second oath in TWoK, he does not have an explosion of Stormlight:

Quote

Kaladin hit the rocky ledge, legs suddenly strong, mind, body, and blood alive with energy. He fell into a crouch, spear under his arm, a small ring of Stormlight expanding from him in a wave, pushed down to the stones by his fall. Stunned, the Parshendi shied away, eyes widening, song faltering.

The Stormlight that comes out of him is implied to be the one he sucked out from the gemstones the Parshendi had. So yes, it does seem to be a more subtle initiation than WoR's scene. 

19 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

One can Surgebind after initial Oath, Lift, Kaladin had access to basics of both Surges even before they spoke second Oath, so its not safe to assume only based on that.

Like I said, both Skybreakers in Edgedancers seems to be new ones, first or second Oath. If Skybreakers Order survived I suspect that Nale would have some more experienced Radiant with him, not two green novices.

Stormfather was well miffed because he saw what happened at Recreance Day - whole population of sprens died. He is afraid that it happen again and that this time he will die. That was reason too why he tried to prevent Syl from bonding Kaladin.

Given that Nale would have hunted down any Surgebinder - Skybreaker or not - that were not under him, I highly doubt it can be any but the Skybreakers. There's also the Honorblade a Herald recovered; since Nale Surgebinds, and can fly it's likely he who recovered his own Blade. I do not see it being any other Radiant order. The original Skybreakers likely died out over the years, and I think Nale is simply the sort who prefers to have as little Surgebinders as possible. He wouldn't have killed the ones after the Desolation, but I figure he has no interest in swelling their numbers overmuch. And even if that is not true I think we have yet to see all the Skybreakers. There may well be full-fledged Radiants under Nale.

Given that the Stormfather mentions not wanting to be killed, I don't think this is likely. You say the Bondsmiths would not break their oaths. What about the Skybreakers, whose Second Words are literally 'I will uphold the law before all else' according to WoB? Seems a lot more likely. 

Quote

Kaladin spoke third Oath and there is WoB confirming that Shallan is one step higher then him in progression, thats why Im assuming she in Lightweaver equivalent of 4th Oath. She had ability ot summon Patern as weapon for whole WoR - that mean third Oath level, last truth put her farther on progression. Unless Lightweavers truths count differently she would be 4th now. Plus I think Shallan generally progressed farther from all known Radiants but regressed because of her repressed memories but she definitly was on third Oath level long before Kaladin.

About Helaran, we dont even know if he bonded spren, we only know he was looking Skybreakers, which could mean anything rly.
And Amaram is using shardblade which we assume belonged to Helaran (if that was him who died at Kaladins hand) which mean its blade from dead spren. If Radiant just died without breaking Oaths spren is alive and I guess just pushed back into Cognitive Realm, so there is no spren body as blade left behind.

Is this WoB pre or post-WoR? Because in the novels she has only given two 'truths', the same amount as Kaladin's oaths. I don't think it's likely she's progressed beyond that, even if she can summon Pattern. 

As for Helaran, agreed. Like I said, I have my doubts as to whether he really was a Radiant, given the lack of glowing from either Blade or Plate. Which means I have further doubts about him meeting the Skybreakers.

2 minutes ago, Kanrei said:

Can we really confirm it? We only know that Nale had two Surgebinders of probably Skybreakers Order, but both of them seemed to be new ones, we havnt seen them using Shardblades as if they could do that I guess they woudnt be such pushover for The Sleepless.
So it might be that when sprens started bond again in masses Nale was gathering ones of Skybreakers Order while killing all other Orders.

I always assumed that Bondsmiths didnt break Oaths because that would kill their sprens. Assuming that there are only few sprens which Bondsmits can bond and Stormfather was one of them and was bonded then fact that he is alive would suggest that his Knight didnt break Oaths.

At other hand, " but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20 " , what Skybreakers doing now is going even beyond subterfuge so maybe it was them.
 

I missed it, or is that from talk between Nale and two journeyman Skybreakers?

If Shardbearer mean ability to summon shardblade then it would be from third Oath as thats when spren can transform into weapon.
Shallan at end of WoR is one step higher then Kaladin, which probably mean 4th Oath so she should be higher rank

Given that the initiates are capable of using Surgebinding, I think it's safe to say this was the order that remained; the Stormfather seemed rather miffed about being bonded again so I doubt the Bondsmiths did not break their oaths.

The relevant quote regarding Radiant rank is here:

Quote

“Your excuses do not befit those who would join our order,” Darkness was saying. “If you would earn the trust of your spren, and take the step from initiate to Shardbearer, you must dedicate yourselves. You must prove your worth. Earlier today I followed a lead that each of you missed, and have discovered a second offender in the city.”

And Shallan is on her third oath (or truth, the way the Lightweavers do it). She has said the 'life before death' part which isn't binding, and two truths: That she killed her father and that the Davar family was in part, destroyed by her. So, three.

We haven't seen anyone with four, unless Helaran managed to get there. But I have my doubts, given that his Shardblade or Plate wasn't noted to have glown...

I've just finished Edgedancer, and my thoughts are:

1. We finally know who are the ones writing the blurbs for each book -- and a hint of their power is shown. It's enough to kill two initiate Radiants, so whoever they are they are not pushovers. 

2. The Skybreakers are indeed the Order that remained. I was so sure it'd be in name only, but they are actual Surgebinders. This brings further questions. What about Helaran? Did he progress enough to obtain his own Shardblade and Shardplate? Were they dead ones, granted for usage? Did he meet the Skybreakers or someone else?

3. There's a rank for Radiants. Initiate seems to be for those who have sworn the first 'binding' oath, Shardbearer for those who have gone to the second binding one (and third overall). This would make Kaladin and Shallan Shardbearer-rank, and Dalinar (possibly Renarin as well) initiates to their respective orders. What are the last two ranks, then?

4. The Heralds aren't working together. Ishar is implied to have lied to Nale. Now that he knows... I wonder what the implications are? If Szeth still goes after the Stone Shamans, will it be because they are tied directly to the Heralds? Perhaps Ishar told them to stow the Honorblades?

5. And Szeth himself. He has an... afterimage. Is it a Radiant ability, or due to his bond with Nightblood? What we know is that he seems to be considered 'worthy' to hold it, at least.

Beyond that, I thought Edgedancer wasn't quite something you'd expect of Brandon; it lacks the Sanderson avalanche we all know and love (The Emperor's Soul did it pretty well). Nale being so unstable is oddly like Szeth and incredibly weird, but I can chalk that up to several millennia of pent-up guilt. Lift hugging him is odd too, for the climax of a story, but I guess Lift has always been an odd one?

Arcanum Unbounded-wise, looks like Bavadin is a she, which is something I was not expecting, and Ambition's power + Adonalsium(?) is behind the shades on Threnody. Nice to get a name on another Shard Odium has splintered, though, and it seems like this is the first one that happened. Also implies that Splintering is a process Odium refined over time, although we need a more definite timeline to place the Shattering, the Last Desolation and Selish prehistory with each other. 

Also... Sel is a sentient planet. That one is... wow.

Time to take bets! I'm betting Threnody or a previously-undiscovered planet.

So Brandon has finally awoken and answered.

"Silverlight is mentioned in the Cosmere collection, I believe, in one of the essays. It's a city somewhere in the Cosmere*, with some relevance you will discover eventually."

I guess this means one month until we find out.

*edited his typo for the Cosmere

9 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

So yeah, on a personal level, I found Shai's life and experience quite familiar... It was odd, considering that she was using it to create copies/approximates of the real thing, but that's exactly what historians must do.

I have often run into this among my professors... More along the line of, "you're such a talented writer who can, at times, create beautiful prose and imagery, why the hell are you writing history?"

As always, it's for the art. That doesn't mean that I won't create a different kind of art later, though, this is just the form I'm doing now...

 

You do realize creating Godzilla from random bones you picked up is less 'for the art' and more 'for the nightmare-inducing memories' right? 

1 minute ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

The history part is something that would take a long time to explain, and...may not make sense to most people on the outside, because you'd need a class in historigraphy to understand it. That said, I appreciate Shai because, as someone who has studied history (too), it really is a bit like forging the past based on what people think happened and, sometimes, who that person (or those people) think they are. It's also a "lie", a story, and the best historians realize that though they gather evidence/primary sources to compile what they think happened, fitting it best to the evidence that they have, the best they can achieve is a approximate truth, a beautiful lie wrapped up in the facts gathered which fits those 'facts' best.

That's probably even more confusing. Anyway.

Yes,I imagine he's like, oh, I dropped that? Time to let it stew for a few decades. Have a RAFO.

That actually doesn't confuse me. I get what you mean - history is a warped tale, and if you go back to prehistory it's even harder to get the objective truth, because of the lack of records. On another note, I loved The Emperor's Soul, I think I consider it the best short story I've ever read. 

Maybe he has a 'tantalizing Cosmere WoB to drop on Reddit' counter and he just hit it, eh? 

2 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

Oh, and a writer too, but writing is art, just like history is art (if you ask Shai, not Jasnah; also, if you ever wanted to know one of the biggest debates in that discipline, it's whether history is science or art, these two characters showcase that...no one really considers that it's probably both), and painting and music are art, too. xD

I kind of expect him to be a bit of a troll, but we'll see.

Agreed on the writing part, intrigued by how you assert that history is partially art - but that may be a discussion for somewhere else!

I now have this mental image of Brandon gleefully rubbing his hands, thinking well, this guy has been trying his best to avoid a RAFO and asking questions about mundane stuff in an attempt to get somewhere! I'll throw him a bone and mention something I won't even write about until about two decades later so he gets curious, asks too much, gets a RAFO and I can scurry away to write another novel nobody knew I had in mind! HAHAHAHAHA! *Lightning flashes outside Brandon's Hemalurgic lab, briefly revealing tons... upon tons of tons of... half-written novels*

2 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

I want skulls. Bones. Things like that. Like any good kandra, all I want are skeletons. It's rather innocent, at least from that perspective...

I'm really just here to make bad kandra jokes.

Really, I'm just an artist, not a theorist (or whatever). But...my bet is, the place called Silverlight will surprise us all, eventually...xD

I feel like you could make a song out of this. But I'm a writer, not a music composer...

As for Silverlight, I am eagerly waiting for Brandon to answer. It's 10.24 am here, I woke up a couple of hours ago, took a look at his reply and went 'did I just inadvertently get a new Cosmere WoB'?

Just now, Kandra-in-disguise said:

For the most part, we don't do that. While there are a very small portion of those who do, it's well-regulated, and I don't personally participate in it, and most people in the fandom would either properly tag it or just not post it.

But you ask for bones! Then again, bones are probably not as NSFW-worthy as what I had in mind...

1 minute ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

Pfft. No, that's the tumblr fandom. You're just a regular worldhopper...maybe. ;P

I'd ask but I really don't want to know what NSFW stuff Tumblr has come up with in the Cosmere.

33 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

It would be a bit like, I don't know, Sazed mentioning moving pictures to the kandra, right?

Wait, are you implying we're all kandra!?

*tries to make flesh melt*

First of all, you're welcome (that was me on Reddit asking around, just woke up and did an O_o when I saw Silverlight). 

I'm wondering whether it's set on Threnody myself, given the obvious 'silver' in the name. That comment link has a few other interesting things too, so take a look. 

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

The problem I see with that thought though is that Yata specifically defined the question as being about the "perks" of the interaction of two powers, and since Brandon is more than likely aware that the two is different, it seems unlikely that he would confuse the two. Also, the fact that he uses the term "mechanics" to explain why those with many powers don't have the lesser perks seems like an indication that he isn't referring to the fact that a misting would just specialize better at their one power versus a mistborn being a proficient at all of them, but more so that there are some underlying rules of how powers work together along with the makeup of innate investiture which would prevent the tangential perks from appearing. I'm using the term tangential to describe the fact that the perks aren't an amplification of a part of one of the powers, but rather something that is only possibly present with both powers. 

I don't necessarily think he was confusing the two, although that is a possibility (it has happened). It's also a possible deflection or misunderstanding of the question. Unless he clarifies this though, the evidence seems to point more to him talking about expertise and practice with one's powers. 

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Could you elaborate on how that annotation exemplifies that the enhanced abilities of a savant and the perk of someone with two powers as meaning the same thing? I assume you're talking about the section at the end which talks about Wax being a steel savant. Also, it seems fairly obvious why no distinction was made. There was no need for one since the concept of savantism hadn't even come up in the question. Could you also explain why you think the two are the same?

It was this quote specifically, not Wax's being a steel savant:

Quote

For these books, I wanted to show people who had one or two powers, instead of sixteen, and show how specialization can achieve some incredible results. 

Savantism was not brought up, correct. Brandon has mentioned, however that having more powers means you're less of an expert on any one power in particular. And savantism is an example of said expertise - you use it for so long that you get incredibly familiar with it. Given that, and this annotation, it seems likely that he was thinking of unique effects like Wax's steel bubble, which in turn was a direct result of being a steel savant. 

Basically, I don't think that savantism and something like the Radiants' supernatural talents are necessarily in the same category. However, because of the context of the question based on previous statements Brandon has given, I believe that he was including it in this WoB. 

This is something I've always wondered as well. I think there are arguments both for and against.

For:

- Vin burnt it regularly over the course of several years. Spook became a savant within a year by flaring his metal. Even had Vin not been flaring pewter, she would have had enough time to become a savant, assuming she was inclined to.

- All the Allomancers in the crew during the original trilogy are better than the average in a certain metal or metals. Kelsier had steel and iron, Breeze had brass, Marsh had bronze. Vin's seems to be brass (look at how Kelsier initially gets fooled and Marsh actually falls for it for a while after she learns from Breeze) and pewter. Maybe steel and iron too, but she was never as precise as Kelsier or Zane. 

- Near-death. She survived an Inquisitor's axe, numerous beatings in her childhood, being thrown around by the Lord Ruler, assassination attempts. All of which are arguably enough to turn her into a savant.

- Duralumin. I suspect this may help accelerate savantism by expending the power in a massive burst akin to a mega-flare. How many times did we see Vin use it to strengthen her body while she steelpushed an army away from her?

Against: 

- You would have thought Sazed might have mentioned it. However, she did choose to go Beyond, so there was perhaps, no point in bringing it up.

- Pewter savants are notoriously hard to create, according to Sazed. This may have been because he got a good look at Vin's spiritweb and saw that she was no savant despite knowing how often she burnt it.

- She didn't seem to flare pewter all that often beyond duralumin, and in bursts (as Ham taught her) and it seems like flaring is what widens the cracks in one's Spiritweb.

- This is specifically for the OP, but pewter-dragging does not indicate savantism. Vin was definitely not one the first time she tried it. Kelsier wasn't an expert in pewter too, and still knew how to use it. Pewter-dragging is more of a technique than something only acquirable by savants.

My verdict would be that she was possibly quite close to reaching it, but never quite got past the finish line. However, I do think Marsh and Clubs were savants.