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On 9/25/2020 at 10:29 PM, Use the Falchion said:

Respectfully I disagree. Kaladin doesn't need another Syl...because he already has Syl. And then Sanderson makes it pretty clear at the end of Oathbringer that Shallan is going to be his new Tien. Combine those two with what Bridge Four and Adolin constantly try to do for the man (provide companionship, hope, and overall attempts to elevate his emotional state), I don't think he needs a partner to do that. A support system isn't made up entirely of "cheerleaders" after all. You need mentors (Kaladin's parents and Dalinar), cheerleaders (Syl and Shallan), peers, friends and allies (Adolin and Bridge Four (specifically Rock and Teft)), and those who love you but aren't afraid to hide the truth either. Kaladin is missing that last category, and someone like Jasnah could fill it pretty well. 

Conversely, Jasnah's view of things is both too grand and too myopic at the same time. She's either utterly focused on defending her family or those she sees as "hers," or utterly focused on saving the world. We've seen very little middle ground from her. Being queen of Alethkar will definitely help in this regard, but so would a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with Kaladin since he probably wouldn't allow her to forget that the world consists of more than just her family. 

Well-said.

Agreed Traveller - Kaladin + Jasnah could be quite interesting. I'd ship Kaladin with Jasnah above all presently based on Books 1-3. New information could come in Book 4 that might change my opinion but I'd be interested in reading that one.

@ Pathfinder

No worries - even though we don't agree on some points, I still enjoyed reading your point of view on all of it, so thanks for sharing. I liked your note about the parshmen and bonding their spren - never know maybe that will be something discussed later in the books by Kaladin and Co.. I definitely sympathized with Kaladin on his point of view with regard to the parshmen after the beginning of OB where he spends time with them. Felt bad for the way they'd been treated.

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I haven't responded up until now because I think I adequately covered all my thoughts on the matter, so felt there was no reason to continue. You both are obviously entitled to state your thoughts and I wish you luck with them. I did have one thing to add however. Regarding this much to do about Jasnah smiling rarely. Jasnah did actually smile at another man after a heated back and forth. His name is Amaram. It was when he kept pursuing her to talk and she kept avoiding him. Then he confronted her in person. She told him to leave. He again persisted. She retaliated in kind. He began to summon his shardblade. She summoned stormlight ready to turn him to smoke and smiled. I do not think anyone can see that scene, and think that she has deep feelings for him and found him attractive by feeling challenged. So I feel a little too much is being attributed to her smiling. But that's just my own thoughts on the matter. 

Always good to read other people's opinions on the subjects, thanks for sharing your views. Topics like this are obviously a bunch of us just throwing observations and opinions out to speculate while none of us know what direction the author is actually going to go with it.

I'm glad you shared that point on Amaram. I will have to go back and check it out just to run that scene through my mind again out of curiosity as I've only read it once.

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Edit - just tacking on to this post as I went back and re-read that section you referenced. I'm glad you brought that one up, too, that's such an enjoyable exchange to read. I can't wait to find out what Jasnah's history actually was with Amaram. I mean she just absolutely hates the dude despite him being cordial toward her initially in that situation and she notes further that it was her father who wanted them to be close (not her) and refused to be alone with him. Definitely interesting.

It's quite a different flow and feeling, though, compared to the exchange between her and Kaladin, at least to me. Jasnah doesn't have a history with Kaladin beyond that Radiant meeting that we know of - she had asked Shallan "what she thought of the Windrunner" at an earlier point in OB, but not much conversation developed beyond that to indicate 'why' she asked. (maybe because she worries about the safety of her family as a primary concern I suspect).

I definitely felt the meanings of those two situations were different based on a few things - circumstances, relationship histories, emotions, etc... I mean in the one situation she was basically ready to kill the guy when smiling (hah, sort of a "make my day" type of smile), only after Amaram was in the process of summoning his shardblade to apparently attack her with. In the other she's having a disagreement about war strategy with a man who had already saved Dalinar's life and Adolin's (multiple times) (these are men, especially Dalinar, who are incredibly dear to Jasnah - Kaladin is basically the opposite of Amaram, an "anti-Amaram" in essence and Jasnah knows that - where Amaram is counterfeit and deceitful in the way he attains his power and reputation, Kaladin is generally honest, and humble, while repeatedly putting his life on the line to help other people without an agenda for personal gain), and it's already been made clear throughout the series that protecting her family is the most important thing to Jasnah. She smiles at Kaladin after she'd insulted him and he insulted her back. It's noted about 15-20 pages before the Kaladin / Jasnah exchange that Dalinar thinks to himself how he thought it was unfair that so many people were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah and that he had noticed she only smiles at people when it's most genuine. Now that's not to say that when she smiles at Kaladin, she's thinking about how she wants to rip his clothes off and get him to bed, only that it's probably different from the circumstances in the exchange with Amaram for the reasons listed above.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I think at this point in the story, Jasnah & Kaladin are probably a little annoyed by each other. She likely finds his viewpoints on the parshmen to be shortsighted righteousness that would get them all killed, just as he likely looks at her as a narrow-minded, emotionless ice queen who "doesn't understand" what he does. I like this pairing for a number of reasons. Primarily I think they can build off each other in a really positive way that would be fun to read about as it wouldn't be easy - they would go through a number of personal trials and tribulations that I think would be fun to read through - they would likely conflict frequently, but I think reading about them resolving those conflicts, particularly if it turned romantic, would be really enjoyable.

But like I've said in other posts, I could be completely wrong in this and maybe they'll just hate each other's guts for the next 7 books, hah.

I could be completely wrong, but I have felt since concluding OB last summer that the Kaladin / Shallan stuff was mostly thrown in there to give Kaladin someone to sort of romantically focus on for a bit while the other pieces on the chess board were being maneuvered as some readers who like to have a romance arc in the books they read would be bored / turned off if they went (3) long novels without any romance stuff for the main character. I think we either haven't met Kaladin's primary romance target yet, or we have, and he simply hasn't had much interaction with her yet for whatever reason.

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I think there was slight chemistry. And that they were not thinking about each other - well, they have barely spoken. Shallan didn't think about Kaladin before chasms, Kaladin didn't think about Shallan, only when he was considering her being a potential assassin (maybe an excuse, but w/e).

I don't think Jasnah is asexual. It's just about men being too stupid for her, it can be seen from her meeting with Amaram. It's kind of the same problem Adolin had with women, but inverted gender-wise. Men were too eager in order to have her attention, so she wasn't ever interested in any of them. Kaladin is capable of surprising her (I think he did already) in this regard. He can challenge her and he is smarter than most of the men. I'm pretty sure if they have enough time speaking to each other they can both benefit greatly from it and can actually develop a romantic relationship. And about age gap - Kaladin is mature, Jasnah is beautiful, what's the problem?

I see a lot of potential amazing stuff in Jasnadin. It complements the theory of Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar-Evi mirror, it brings a room for development for both characters as they complement each other greatly, it also fulfills some foreshadowing, like "the tower, the crown and the spear", and also a quote from OB which I have just discovered today:

Ya, agreed on the chemistry given the limited interaction - to me I thought it was fairly clear during the meeting that the chemistry was there, underyling the subject matter being discussed by the two of them. I think right now Jasnah and Kaladin have a fundamental disagreement about how to proceed due to some ideological differences, making them probably have a slight dislike for each other right now on the surface, but also a mutual respect (they are probably both glad they are on the same side, Jasnah especially after Kaladin & his men brought Gavinor back given how clear it's been made that her family (and protecting them) is the most important thing in her life).

They've had so little interaction so far; that's what's going to be very interesting moving forward is how they behave towards each other. Jasnah smiling at Kaladin during their little argument stood out to me as a good sign since she rarely smiles as-is. But Kaladin probably has an opinion of her that the term "ice queen" could probably convey accurately at this point in the story. I think Kaladin's opinion of Jasnah will change going into book 4 as she'll no doubt do some things that will surprise him in a positive way as with her being Queen now, they are likely going to spend a lot of time together in close-quarters moving forward.

I'm also hoping Jasnah can help Kaladin with some of his issues where he cares so much to the point of it being a character fault - it actually causes him problems on a day to day basis and he really needs to learn how to accept that you can't save everybody, and nor is it your responsibility to save everybody all the time. He desperately needs some logic injected into his emotionally driven faults.

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I also root for this kinda because Jasnah is so expressingly asexual. There is sooooo much time spent to stress the fact how much she isn't interested in men... And also, you know, rules just don't apply to Kaladin Stormblessed.

I actually would very much like this to happen. I think this relationship would be very interesting to read.

Absolutely!

+1 to your post.

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I've heard of it as "The Honeymoon Phase."

Ya that's a good one too, I've heard that as well.

On 1/8/2019 at 4:16 AM, Vissy said:

I don't particularly mind charges of "realism" or "unrealism" in books. I think what people often call unrealistic are actually quite realistic things. Take romance for an example since this is a shipping thread. The romance between Shallan and Adolin could be called unrealistic because of how soppy it seems, but then what does a romance look like when you look at it from the outside? I even know people who have acted in similar manners to Adolin and Shallan when they're in love. 

Agreed. This is commonly referred to as the "puppy love" phase. I've been through it plenty of times myself. Usually the first 3-6 months you go through this when you get into a new relationship where it's like you're living on a cloud. The other person is so perfect in your eyes that you just adore everything about them and they can do no wrong and all you want to do is be around that person, holding, hugging, or kissing them every second of every day, hah. Eventually reality starts to creep back in, but it does take a good chunk of time.  

+1, OP.

Ya it's good to always be friendly even if you disagree with something someone says and try not to be rude / confrontational. I think most folks here have done a fantastic job of that in my experience as well.

Thank you so much for posting this, OP.

I'd seen a theory on a different site where someone suggested some kind of violation by an ardent that the theorist then suggested could be one of the reasons Jasnah is so against religion and has feelings of not always being able to rely on family to protect her. Doesn't mean it's necessarily sexual in nature (but could be), but I found that interesting referencing the ardentia.

19 minutes ago, Eris said:

I don't mind her but her insistence that her Spren is a voidbringer and referring to her powers as awesomeness gets a bit repetitive but i guess she is a kid and that is what kids do

I'm hoping what Joy said above comes about and Lift becomes more mature and fun to read.

On 1/4/2019 at 3:16 PM, Severian4Scadrial said:

I'd also like Lift gone. I confess I haven't read Edgedancer, but thus far she's a dreadfully annoying character, and between volumes I've honestly forgotten a great deal about her storyline.

Ya I'm with ya. Thus far I've groaned every time I have to read Lift's POV - just find her incredibly irritating.

46 minutes ago, YKDG22 said:

I think this relationship might happen but it wont be simple.

That's actually good if it turns out that way - I'd enjoy reading about a relationship between them developing over several books to be honest rather than something quick and easy - and Sanderson likes conflict in his relationships per some interviews he's given.

Obviously same answer as a bunch here, but Moash for me as well.

Thanks for the long, detailed post Alderant, I certainly enjoyed checking it out with all the detailed references!

On 3/14/2018 at 6:02 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

Greetings - I've read a lot of your posts in threads on this topic and similar and they've made a lot of sense. I am curious on your more detailed thoughts on your post above - how would you imagine something like this coming about as far as Kaladin potentially becoming the high king? Do you imagine this happening in a situation where Jasnah would be dead and Kaladin would assume leadership for the good of the people, or do you see Jasnah stepping back and asking Kaladin to lead because it's a strength, or the two of them getting married and sort of co-leading, etc.?

11 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

there is a very good chance, should some (read: Kal) not make it to arc 2, that I won't make it there as well

Yep right there with you. Kaladin is by far my favorite character. If / when he checks out, that will likely be the point I check out as well.

7 hours ago, Xavier Iriarte said:

Also i think we are biased toward male characters (us men).

Ya, I find myself frequently putting myself in Kaladin's shoes during his POVs since I probably identify closest with him of all the main characters, minus his bouts of depression / self-loathing. I am frequently rooting for him to do certain things / handle situations certain ways throughout the story in the way I imagine myself handling them, hah. It's funny how we get attached to our favorite characters.

@ Eris - no worries, my not enjoying Shallan's character / behavior in OB isn't from a lack of understanding "why" she's the way she is - I just began finding her annoying for much of OB and did not enjoy reading her POVs. By the end when things are "decided" with her and Adolin, I had a little celebration as it seemed that would be the end of Shalladin.

I had not personally seen that but glad you posted it - I had been a big Shalladin shipper through books 1 and 2 but in book 3 I really came to find Shallan quite irritating and was glad BS seemingly slammed the door on that ship.

39 minutes ago, Joy said:

I had no idea that so many people shipped Kaladin and Jasnah. Personally, I interpret her disinterest in men as a sign that she's either gay or asexual.

And you know, you could be 100% right. There are just so many little details we just don't know as Sanderson has kept Jasnah's POV so limited up to this point. But ya, I actually thought I was one of very few who shipped Kaladin and Jasnah, but between this place and reddit, I've seen a bunch of others who are also shippers of the same which for me, was a pleasant surprise.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Kaladin x Jasnah (Tarah in Second for Kaladin, Azure in Second for Jasnah) - they could, if they give each other the chance, help each other grow and mature.

 

 

Agreed 100%. What I'm hoping for there is Jasnah and Kaladin start to have a little chemistry from interacting during "co-parenting" (however that ends up working out) with Gavinor, and then Tarah shows up to create some emotional / relationship conflict with Jasnah + Kaladin ultimately winning out.

I'm with ya, OP - all in on Jasnah + Kaladin here, would love to see that happen. I originally enjoyed Kaladin + Shallan, but by the end of OB, I found Shallan so annoying that I was glad for the seemingly "door slammed shut" feeling I got on Shalladin.

One thing I wonder outside of the obvious Gavinor "connection" - will Bridge 4 be guarding Jasnah like they have been for Dalinar, Navani, Elhokar, etc. previously? That could be yet another potential interaction. Obviously Jasnah can take care of herself, but so could Dalinar, so to me, that's another area where potential Kaladin / Jasnah interaction could occur - he would likely need to meet with her to find out what her needs were with protection as far as where she'd be heading on any given day, etc. so he could ensure enough of his squires and the right ones were assigned to her. Just thinking out loud.