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2 hours ago, Landis963 said:
To clarify, the list of 10 core worlds is probably:
- Yolen
- Taldain
- Sel
- Nalthis
- Scadrial
- Roshar
- Ashyn
- Braize
- Threnody
- Vax
Oathbringer Spoilers:
SpoilerGiven the letter epigraphs in Oathbringer, we have strong reasons to believe that Obrodai is one of those 10 core worlds, right? (i.e., It's a confirmed Shardworld inhabited by a Shard: "We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there")
Makes me think that Roshar/Braize/Ashyn should be considered one "system"? (Much as they are described by Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded)
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16 hours ago, Calderis said:
I personally think that Kelsier was spiked in the Cognitive Realm with the physical connection of someone else, and that his body is his own.
@Calderis, thanks for linking your theory! If I'm understanding you correctly, you're theorizing that the "string" mentioned by Leras is an actual, Spiritual attribute representing a being's Connection to the Physical Realm, which can be stolen via Hemalurgy. Put another way, you're interpreting Kelsier's statement, “Well, we’re just going to have to find me a new string," in a more literal sense—he literally needs to steal this "string" from another person. Very interesting, I like how simple and elegant your theory is!
I think I follow the basis of your theory, which is that flesh-and-blood living beings seemingly "automatically" transform from matter to Investiture (or back) when using a Perpendicularity (or Elsecalling) to move between Realms. I really like the idea of defining the "string" as the Spiritual attribute that transforms a person back to matter from Investiture when transitioning back to the Physical Realm (it'd line up with Leras saying that Kelsier's lack of "string" would prevent him from being able to ride the Perpendicularity).
However, I have one big question about your theory: We know that matter, energy, and Investiture are fundamentally the same and that they cannot be created or destroyed. Living beings transforming to Investiture while transitioning Realms aren't net creating or net destroying matter/energy/Investiture. Their Physical matter bodies would "disappear" from the Physical Realm, and their Investiture-based Cognitive bodies would "appear" in the Cognitive Realm—the two never exist at the same time, so it seems safe to assume that it's the same matter/energy/Investiture that's undergoing some sort of "phase change." In Kelsier's case, however, (and for any other dead person), the body remains behind in the Physical Realm, while his Investiture-based Cognitive self simultaneously appears in the Cognitive Realm. This difference makes me think that there's definitely a distinction between these two different methods of changing Realms.
A possible way of reconciling this discrepancy: Perhaps dead people are much less Invested that living beings? As in, the innate Investiture in people is represented by their Physical and Cognitive forms, and when they die, some of that Investiture remains in the Physical Realm (the corpse) and some transitions to the Cognitive Realm (the "ghost")? (By that logic, perhaps the SpiritWeb, or the soul, also represents some of that innate Investiture, though that would also imply that people moving to the Beyond is Investiture leaving the Cosmere, which makes me think this is not the case... but I digress.) If that were true, living beings who transition to the Cognitive Realm via Perpendicularity would be much more Invested than a dead person, as they'd have their Cognitive Investiture as well as their Physical Investiture (also converted to Cognitive Investiture via the "string").
Bringing this all together then, we could conclude that Kelsier likely didn't have enough Investiture to "precipitate out" a body (even if he replaced his "string") immediately upon death, but the infusion of Investiture from Preservation that made him into a Cognitive Shadow may have provided enough extra Investiture to make up the difference? At this point, I'm very much guessing at your response to my question haha so would be curious to hear your thoughts!
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3 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:
Keeping you sane may be difficult due to the large amount of
hemalurgic spikescookies we consumeI'm quite obsessed with both Hemalurgy and cookies, so maybe I'm already insane haha
2 hours ago, Mestiv said:I hope you'll have a great time here!
Thanks! I've already been enjoying these forums immensely, hoping I can bring some theoretic value of my own now
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14 minutes ago, Leyrann said:
To start off, the ties to the Physical Realm. I have theorized that these ties are created by the Progression Surge, forming what we consider to be "life".
I haven't seen this take on the Progression Surge! I like the idea of "healing" being a more fundamental "force" that Connects your Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical selves (Brandon has basically said as much when explaining why Lopen could heal his arm vs. why Kaladin couldn't heal his scars), so I think you may have just convinced me with your theory.
14 minutes ago, Leyrann said:I also think Thunderclasts are something totally different, a kind of spren that specifically has the ability to become a Thunderclast.
Hmm... I could see this too, I was assuming that they were particularly corrupted Fused, but you're right that they kinda seem like an entirely different thing...
6 minutes ago, RShara said:Yep, I agree
Not gonna lie, pretty jazzed to be hearing this from RShara
6 minutes ago, RShara said:Because it seems like he has something quite similar to his original body. At least, it has all the scars on the arms.
Exactly—hence why I brought up the passage on Leshwi's coloration (and also maybe the Returned's ability to change their physical appearance). I would be pretty surprised if the mechanism by which Kelsier got his "old appearance" back were not very similar to how Leshwi always seems to end up in a body with that unique tri-color marbling (we know Moash has seen her in multiple Listener bodies, given that he killed one of them).
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Finally made an account after lurking for a year, excited to join in on discussions! Figured you guys would help keep me sane until The Lost Metal comes out in 2019
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After lurking for a year, I’m finally taking the leap and posting my first theory to the 17th Shard! (Also posted it to the r/Cosmere subreddit, in case anyone saw it over there.) I couldn’t find anything here (or there) covering this specific topic—apologies if this has already been discussed.
Kelsier remains one of my favorite Cosmere characters, and I’m positive that his incredible story arc, irreverence for authority, and status as a Sliver of Preservation will make him a key source of knowledge and insight into the inner workings of Investiture and the Cosmere.
In particular, I can’t stop wondering how he pulled off his latest “feat,” seen at the end of The Bands of Mourning—namely, returning to the Physical Realm after dying and turning into a Cognitive Shadow during the events of Mistborn: Secret History.
Re-reading Secret History after reading Oathbringer has given me an idea for a theory that I find increasingly plausible: I believe that Kelsier returned to the Physical Realm in a very similar fashion to the creation of The Fused: I imagine that he used Hemalurgy to “staple” his Cognitive Shadow into a living person, much like the Fused are Ancient Listener Cognitive Shadows “inserted” into the gemhearts of living Listeners. (Possibly related to the spike going through his eye and brain?)
Kelsier, The Survivor of Death
Quote“Your ties to the Physical Realm have been severed. You’re a kite with no string connecting it to the ground”
— Leras to Kelsier, Mistborn: Secret History, Part 2, Chapter 1
Quote“And you?” Spook asked. “What do you get from this?”
“Nothing big,” Kelsier said. “Just a little thing. Someone once explained my problem. My string has been cut, the thing holding me to the physical world.” His smile broadened. “Well, we’re just going to have to find me a new string.”
— Mistborn: Secret History, Epilogue
The two passages above highlight Kelsier’s problem as a Cognitive Shadow: he’s missing the “string” (whatever that actually means) that connects him to the Physical Realm, enabling him to have a body.
QuoteIt was a difficult perspective to experience, for only half of the viewer’s eyesight was normal. The other was all in blue, lines everywhere. The vision of a man spiked through the eye …
That arm … That arm. Lined with a network of scars layered atop one another, as if made by scraping the skin time and time again. The haunting word he’d spoken echoed in Wax’s mind.
“Survive.”
— The Bands of Mourning, Epilogue
From the end of The Bands of Mourning, we can see that Kelsier succeeded! He’s back in the Physical Realm, able to physically interact with his surroundings and other people, and clearly inhabiting a body that looks a lot like his previous body (note the scarred arms). We know that Kelsier couldn’t possibly be inhabiting his original body, as it was eaten by OreSeur near the end of The Final Empire. Somehow, Kelsier has obtained a new body that looks like his original body (or… more likely, he’s managed to transform a different body to look like his own).
The timing of events also gives us some clues in terms of just how quickly Kelsier managed to accomplish this: he’s down on the Southern Hemisphere while the people there are literally still in process of freezing to death—he walks by recently frozen corpses and comes upon the remnants of a people waiting to die. From this we can infer that Kelsier got his body back fast enough following the Catacendre that some of the Southerners were still alive. Given how quickly Allik and the other Southerners started experiencing hypothermia in “normal” temperatures, it’s hard to imagine that Kelsier had more than a few months (if not weeks) to figure out his Physical return.
The Mechanics of “Fusing”
Quote“FOR WHEN THESE DIED, THEY REFUSED TO PASS ON … THEY ARE THE SPREN OF PARSHMEN LONG DEAD … THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED.”
— Oathbringer, Chapter 38
Quote“I said,” Ulim hissed, “that you were opening yourselves up. I didn’t say what would enter. Look, your gods need bodies. It’s like this every Return. You should be flattered.”
“Flattered to be killed?”
“Yeah, for the good of the race,” Ulim said. “Those are the Fused: ancient souls reborn.”
— Oathbringer, Interlude 6
These passages reiterate the mechanics of “fusing”: a living Listener opens him/herself to the Cognitive Shadow of an Ancient Listener, who then completely takes over the body of the living Listener, forcing out the original soul, and “fusing” to the body to create a new being.
QuoteLeshwi, the other had called her. She had a face that was all three Parshendi colors: white, red, and black, marbled like paint swirled together. He had rarely seen someone who was all three colors before, and this was one of the most transfixing patterns he’d seen, almost liquid in its effect, her eyes like pools around which the colors ran.
— Oathbringer, Chapter 54 (emphasis added)
This passage seems to suggest that the “fusion” process fundamentally changes the physical appearance of the Listener body beyond that of form, as form changes don’t seem to correspond with a Listener’s marbling coloration (i.e., we’ve seen Listeners of the same form have different colorations, so we can infer that coloration is not form-specific). If we assume that marbling coloration is a more fundamental physical attribute of the individual listen related to his or her Identity (much like a fingerprint), this change in coloration would be suggest that the “fusion” process is directly changing the Identity of the Listener’s SpiritWeb.
Conclusions
In spite of the very limited information that we have thus far, it’s difficult not to see a parallel between Kelsier’s Physical return and the creation of the Fused: both are instances of a Cognitive Shadow returning to the Physical Realm by inhabiting a body of some sort (literally stated in the case of the Fused, strongly implied in Kelsier’s case). We know that the Fused require a gemheart of some sort to facilitate the process (the existence of Thunderclasts show that the it may not even need to be a Listener body or gemheart), and the “storage” of Investiture (spren) within a gemheart certainly evokes the “storage” of a Hemalurgic charge within a spike, in many ways.
(Note: I’ve used the word “return” to describe Kelsier’s inhabiting a Physical body—Kelsier’s parallels to the Returned on Nalthis, who are also Cognitive Shadows AND Splinters, certainly exist as well, but the analogue seems a bit more oblique than that of the Fused? If anyone has thoughts on how this phenomena is also similar, I’d love to hear them!)
Would love to hear feedback and thoughts on this theory! I couldn’t be more excited for The Lost Metal! Really hoping that it comes with some big answers around our favorite scarred Survivor.
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[NSFW Language] Wrote a SoundCloud Rap about Mistborn Era 1
in Creator's Corner
Posted · Edited by Discord
Not sure if there's much crossover between the SoundCloud rap community and the Mistborn/Cosmere community... but figured I'd share this demo in case that overlap contains more than just me haha
Recently, I've been really into the Horrorcore genre, where lyrics tend to be... pretty dark and violent. Thought it would be a fun/funny exercise to write a song in that genre along those themes, but exclusively referencing Mistborn Era 1 (which, at times, is also... pretty dark and violent).
I'm still very new to hip-hop production and rapping—this is actually the first rap song I've ever written and recorded (my musical background is in classical and rock), so it's really just for fun, but wanted to share in case someone else got a kick out of it.
I wrote, performed, and recorded every part of the song (lyrics, production, mixing, mastering, etc.) so if anyone has feedback on any of that, I'd greatly appreciate that as well! The beat is somewhat inspired by gothic/baroque organ music, since I wanted the song to have a bit of a hymnal/religious feel, in theme with both Kelsier's and Rashek's storylines in Era 1.
The first verse is from Kelsier's perspective ("To Kill God"), while the second verse is from Rashek's perspective ("Become God"). The full title ("To Kill God, Become God") also references three things: (1) Kelsier's plan to become a religious figure to defeat The Lord Ruler, (2) Rashek's Ascension to defeat The Deepness, and of course, (3) the finale of Hero of Ages.
So, without further ado:
"To Kill God, Become God"
[Verse 1 - Kelsier]
[Verse 2 - Rashek]