GoddessIMHO

Regardless of his name: I believe El is going to be Todium's champion. At least he was before Rayse was killed. I'm not sure if Mr T would choose someone else. El was "testing" his knife to see if it would kill an immortal Fused but that could just be because he didn't have a Radiant (or a God?) around to test it on.

It seems the simple explanation that Pursuer was refering to "He Who Quiets" as the title. El is clearly someone important with his scene right near the end of the book. Why make such a big deal with both the title comment and the knife? Moash (die.die.die) is now blind and can't be cured, which also seems to be telling us something which I can't decipher, but it puts him out of the running for both that title and being the champion.

I liked the Venli flashbacks the least of all the chapters. She was selfish and unpleasant in the first book and hasn't changed a lot. She only has a Radiant spren because Eshoni died. Even Rlain still doesn't like her. She is aware that she not a very good person and does some good things but she is too much of a coward to really help people. 

Venli's chapters gave us some Listener lore and even more details about the killing of Gavilar but I could have not read it and not missed it.

Why do people believe that Kelsier is proven to be Thaidihar? Does it say that in ROW and I missed it?

But we don't know exactly what Todium did. He "said" he could read Wit's memory without "hurting" him which got around the contract. But Wit has lost enough Breath to no longer have perfect pitch. That implies that Todium didn't read the memory, he took some breaths. So far, With doesn't know and it depresses me. Maybe Jashna will realise somehtng isn't right and he will learn that way.

I felt sort of sad and let down at the end. We did get a lot of answers but it felt, overall, like everything is ready to fall apart in the next 10 days.

Mr T seems like he will be worse than Rayse and now Wit has been tricked but what does that mean to Roshar?. And I can't even get over the horror of what the God King is trying to do with the spren. Why would he want them in the physical realm? And Dalinar, he made a deal with himself as Odium's prize but what will this new Odium spring on him. Mr T knows him so much better than Rayse did and that means he can be more effective against him.

There were many parts that I liked. Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin and Navani all had good story lines but the very end of the book sort of bummed me out.

Dalinar is both followed and not followed due to WHO he is. His enemies feared and reviled him but his own troops would follow him to hell and back.  Now, in addition he is a Bondsmith. He was a renowned military leader until his breakdown and he came back to lead again. Not everyone buys into his leadership by default but Kaladin certainly does.

No one has mentioned the difference between fabrials and soul-casters. Fabrials don't take away the person using them until they become a casting themselves. Another thing that stuck out for me was the closed eyes like the Spren were sleeping, like the Sibling is sleeping and we have the Sleepless. It just seems like this all might fit together and the mystery person/Spren was speaking of Soul-casters.

My theory was feeling good until I thought about what most of the early narrative is about; It's about fabrials and not soul-casters. In particular, it's about Navani creating many more of the split type of fabrial like the Span Reeds. The air ship is a very heavy user of these split fabrials as are the lifts in Urithiru so Navani has had many of them created. I can't think of any other fabrial she has created in large numbers.

When it comes to the Honor Spren there seems to be a very determined effort to NOT bond with humans. The same for the Dust Bringers and Sky Breakers but our new Radients don't seem to care so much about the latter two. Perhaps it's because the Wind Runners are seen as the bulk of the fighting troops. At any rate, all the foreshadowing seems to concern Honor spren so why send Adolin and Shallan without Kaladin? Would Syl be considered a problem going to Lasting Integrity?

Finally, poor Shallan, could Formless end up being an Unmade that was hidden inside her mind? What made a Spren bond with such a young child. The Cryptics sent pattern to her didn't they? Same with Jashna, perhaps she too had some unfortunate similar experience as a child so she also bonded early?

Renarin did this same sort of revelation to Adolin. He used his form of Illumination to show him a better version of himself. This time it was rather superpowered. Did he know he was saving Kaladin or was he just trying to find him and Moash got caught in the light? But Moash didn't want to be reminded of who he could be or could have been. 

Just because Renarin's spren has been corrupted it doesn't necessarily mean it's broken or evil. It just means it works differently than it will for other Truthwatchers. And Renarin is the joker wildcard in the Diagram. He blocks Odium's future vision. 

And now Kaladin has to tell Laral what happened and he will again believe he is at fault and has failed someone.

Oh, I like the quote from Ym that Seed posted about the vintage being a clue. I think she killed herself. She had given up. Sadeus and Amaran were gone. The other two high princes at her side were murdered. The Ghostbloods were going to get her, she thought Shallan had come from them. If she was going to be killed anyway she did it by her own agency and gave Shallan a clue that would expose more of what the Ghostbloods were really after. She didn't give Shallan any of that final wine. This is Ialai's last chance to hit back at the Ghostbloods and take her own death by choice to deny them.

I spend most of my time over on Tor but with the chapters coming out I like getting even more input. I keep wondering if Jezrein is "dead" or has been captured into that knife and could be reincarnated like the Fused. At any rate, there seems to at least some free will among the Fused and the unmade. Kaladin may well be able to earn Leshwi's respect and turn her (and her squad) just as Sja-Anat wants to switch sides. I thought Nall stated he was supporting Odium when he left Szeth? I bet we are going to have both sides end up a mix. Remember, the dark has to exist for the light to exist. It seems the end game would ultimately be a balance like Harmony.

It really seems like Navani is being set up for the Sibling. 

I completely agree that Shallan made a choice between 2 men: Regardless of what went before. This isn't a shape shifter "one true mate" fantasy. She has free will.  At the time she made it she was somewhat stable at the 3 main masks.

I think just saying Veil is the real Shallan is wrong. Veil is the piece of Shallan that wants freedom/escape from who she is. Veil had a purpose for the Ghostbloods but she was based on a complete lie. No part of Shallan was EVER dark eyed or raised on the streets; that is part of why Veil fails in such a dramatic fashion. She really doesn't understand that life, she is play acting to boost her bravery and attitude. Later she also finds she can use this to avoid the pain.

Everyone acts differently in certain situations. The person I am at the bar with friends doesn't act the same as the person I am at work. But Shallan has magic and mental issues. How can we really compare her to our reality?

@Greywatch - thank you for the Pattern review. I had forgotten that final "this is a good you". She is better and progressing.  No one thinks she is healthy but better is in the right direction.

Of course she and Adolin will have issues with the marriage.  What marriage doesn't involve major changes and occasional blow ups in life. And their marriage is happening in the midst of a world war. And Adolin's father is about to drop an emotional bomb shell. The same father who tried to carve Adolin into the "perfect" Alethi soldier prince to mitigate his own disastrous failure in that regard. Granted that Dalinar was being manipulated by Odium at the time . 

Then we have the last minute appearance of Shallan’s brothers. There is still more to their story and Halloran's that we have yet to learn. And Shallan says she needs to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. 

Finally, there is Kaladin.  Some people claim his arc was disappointing but I see it as the prelude to his greatest understanding.  He has to understand that the world isn't all black and white.  The strict oaths of a junior Windrunner are about to merge into oaths that require value judgments. When you can't save everyone, how do you decide who to save? An oath that allows no choice is easy to follow even if you don't like it.  Once you have to make a choice,  you also have the responsibility.  There is no get out of jail free card saying "I was only following orders".

10 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

ETA: I know it should matter that Shallan is a stable three people now instead of an unstable 3-25 people, but I just roll my eyes at that since she was three people throughout all of OB. I'd say she's been pretty stable.

Well, she was wildly OOC after learning her attempts at kindness actually caused fatal harm to those she was helping. That was a very intense break down that could have left her a non functional psychotic. I'd say keeping to the big 3 was a great improvement.

Most of you seem to think Shallan made no power improvement in OB but when she(they) created the illusion in TC it went far beyond what she had done previously.  Granted that Dalinar power infused all the Radiants she still stepped up her game.

I don't think anyone believes that getting married has cured Shallan. I do think it is the end of the love triangle. 

Pattern has claimed that Shallan is going to kill him. I don't think he sees the future but more that he knows Shallan still blames him partly for killing her mother.  I like the idea @DimChaz brings up of her losing her ability being what finally forces her to face her past. Of course that opens up a whole new plot tangle since losing a lightweaver hurts team Kholin in the war. Would a cured but powerless Shallan prove herself valuable in other ways? Would the Cryptics send her another spren?   

Wild but unlikely theory : Hoid returns and gives her Elokar's orphaned cryptic.

I hate all the topics and replies that keep saying 4 years until the next book! I'm in post-book depression. Or maybe that's pre-book depression.

Thanks @RSHARA. I had completely forgotten those episodes. This would make Jasnah hiding her "Radiance" even more difficult. It would expected that she too would show these effects.

I was confused by the interlude with the Soul Caster. I'm reading here that she was turning into smoke because she used a smokestone? I don't recall any other mention of the Soul Casters used by the armies to make food turning into emeralds or grain. 

I didn't really get the point of that whole interlude.

Sorry, veering off topic here. I was really surprised at the WOB someone posted several pages back. I TOTALLY missed that Shallan had a gay/bi type of reaction to Jasnah. I thought there was hero worship for a time sure, but I missed the rest.

On the bromance, Adolin and Kaladin had both been brought up to be a certain type of person with a specific career. Both of them were being shaped by their station in life and then the war more than what they might have wanted. You are what your dad was if you are a son, especially a first born son, but Kaladin rejected that and become a soldier while Adolin just accepted it. Both of them wanted relationships. Both of them have younger brothers they feel responsible for. I do think that Adolin looks at Kaladin and sees him as MORE. But Kaladin respects him also.

I could totally have seen a scenario where they Both gave up Shallan for the other guy.

On 1/5/2018 at 5:01 AM, Dreamstorm said:

As far as Shallan ending up with Adolin, I found the pivotal scene to be the one before the one being discussed above - the one where Shallan settles down on the wall walk and Adolin approaches her and squeezes her hand to pick “Shallan” - as this is the scene where Shallan actually chooses Adolin. (She informs him of her decision in the next “I’m not an object” scene.) Two things about the writing here convince me that this was not supposed to be a “strong” moment for Shallan.

First, we had clearly established symbolism from the end of part 3 that the strong Shallan is the “girl who stood up.” In the Adolin portion of this scene, Shallan is sitting down (settled against the wall wall - it’s at the beginning of the scene.) It’s while she’s sitting that she flickers personas and Adolin chooses “Shallan”. So Shallan is sitting for this pivotal choice of “which personality is really me.” When Kaladin lands, she (as Veil) stands up and thinks to approach Kaladin. Brandoestablished clear sitting/standing symbolism for Shallan, and I think he is the quality of author who isn’t careless with using these elements once established; he has to be thinking about positioning given the emphasis he put on that positioning. This can be read as “Shallan” is the girl sitting down and Veil is the girl standing up, or Shallan around Adolin is the girl sitting down and Shallan around Kaladin is the girl standing up. Either way, I believe this placement to be intentional and is meant to highlight the healthiness (or lack thereof) of Shallan’s choice. (I only noticed it myself when mentioned by a (Shadolin!) fan who went to a signing.)

 

But it is the standing Shallan who decides to merely wave at Kaladin and walk away to search for Adolin.

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing.  it's always cheaper to buy the ebook plus the audible book from the Amazon site than to buy just the audible book from the Audible site.  I can't figure out what that gains them financially.  They don't actively market it that I've seen. 

As much as I love the character of Adolin,  he is a secondary character.  We are not going to see as much from him as we do from Shallan and Kaladin.  The other part to remember is that this is Dalinar's book. He is the plot driver. 

The other characters have arcs and actions but they are bits of the overall Stormlight arc in OB while Dalinar's transformation from the Blackthorn to Unity is the point of the story. His marriage to Navani is more important in OB than the marriage of Adolin and Shallan. That is part of what makes him a heretic from Vorinism. His response to the murder of Sadeas is more important than Adolin's.  It allows Adolin to back off from being king and allows Shallan to propose Jasnah. His brutality as a soldier and failure to save Evi contrasts to Kaladin's breakdown when faced with having to choose who to save.

Anyway, I got carried away here.  it's a good thing the holidays are over and work will limit my forum fervor. 

I'm pretty sure it was a corrupted glory spren that brought Shallan a message in Shadesmar.

5 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Most people in general don't really delve beyond the surface in their reading (I think it's safe to say that many of us here sometimes avoid it too) and that's the problem here since much of Shalladin hides in indirect literary devices while pretty much everything Shadolin is spelled out for you directly in thoughts these two have of one another or in their direct interactions.

And here's my argument.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Over analysis to provide proof while denying what is stated outright MAY point to a deeper truth but I don't think it does here. Bottom line, most of us must just agree to disagree when this sort of debate winds down. Only the next book will tell.

As for OB being a disappointing book I disagree.  There were parts I thought dragged  (Shadesmar was too long ) but overall the book kept me interested and wanting more.

I feel the need to bring up the 'arranged' marriage again. Neither Navani nor Shallan was really forced into their marriages. Shallan was eager when Jasnah suggested it.  I don't know how Navani was selected but she was clearly able to decide which brother to marry.  I suspect her marriage likely had some political advantage for bringing her family in on the side of the Kholins just as Evi brought the plate.  Evi was there looking for a possible marriage to find protection for her and her brother. 

Just because an Alethi woman didn't marry for love it doesn't mean she might not have wanted the match . I just remembered that Jasnah was asked to marry Amaram and she was able to refuse even though Gavilar,  her father and her king, wanted it. The women in Alethkar had at least some power of choice.

It seems like both of Venli's spren must be will shapers.  Which seems like they must affect each other.  Syl can speak to the Stormfather so shouldn't Venli's void spren be able to tell on her? Unless they are both still not very smart like Syl was at first.