aon

I'm kind of sad that Brandon decided to do an extra Mistborn Series, meaning that the Space Age Series will be series 4, rather than 3, delaying it a bit longer I want to see how it works!

But yeah Hoid and Kelsier being the main characters of the Space-Age Mistborn Series sounds cool!

If I'm correct, you can't simply store investure and pull it out as any power. That could make a fullborn out of any Nicrosil Ferring. Rather, I believe it works like F.Tin does, but instead of storing individual senses, you store individual powers. In this case you would need to have access to both F.Brass and F.Nicrosil to store Brass investure in a Nicrosilmind. To make it useable by anybody you need F.Aluminum. And finally, for a never-ending supply of investure in a population with very few natural metalborn, you need A.Nicrosil for compounding.

This gives us four metals in one Medallion, or three powers (If Allik isn't counting F.Nicrosil). So I guess it fits with what Allik said.

I'm not saying you can pull out any power, you pull out the power that was specifically stored in it. Allik says you could create a Nicrosil Metalmind that gave all powers if you were fullborn to start with (I.e the Bands of Mourning). He also says that someone can store their abiltiies in Nicrosil and pass it on to someone else to store their powers in, however the most granted he's seen created is 3, and we can presume most people in the South aren't Twinborns as it seems Feruchemists and Allomancers are rare/.

If you're a F. Tin user you then use a Nicrosil Metalmind that grants you F. Aluminium and A. Tin. Now you've compounded Tin and made the Tin part of the medallion any Tin user can use. Then you use a Nicrosil Metalmind that grants you F. Aluminium and F. Nicrosil and A. Nicrosil, and now you've compounded the Nicrosil part of the Medallion which gives the ability to use Tin...

You only ever need to be GRANTED 3 abilties at any one given time.

I don't think a medallion with four metals is necessary. (Though note that when Allik says he's seen a medallion with "three" metals only twice in his life, he doesn't seem to be counting the nicrosil part.)

I'm guessing the Southerners have natural metalborn, and that these "fire-parents" are actually natural Brass ferrings. All they need is the medallion/excisor that grants Feruchemical nicrosil and Feruchemical aluminum, and they can create medallions of Feruchemical nicrosil and Feruchemical brass.

...oh, but the medallions we've seen also store other feruchemical powers. Right.

 

I think there's a little confusion here. We have seen Medallions with 3 metals ... The ones that both stored weight and gave heat.

What Allik said he'd seen only twice in his life were Medallions that granted 3 abilities at once. He also said that you can have different Feruchemist/Allomancers put in their ability into a Medallion seperately.

To make a new Medallion you only need to be GIVEN F. Nicrosil and F. Aluminium. You store your Identity in some Aluminium, then make a Nicrosil Metalmind with your origional ability. Someone else can then add to that Nicrosil Metalmind their ability also.

This means they can make Nicrosil Metalminds with any ability someone is naturally born with. Firemothers and Firefathers presumably are natual Brass Alchemists/Feruchemists whom use a Medallion to gain F. Aluminium and the other F/A Brass so that they can compound Brass and make a supercharged Identityless Brass Metalmind.

As the OP said the issue comes from the supply of F. Nicrosil and F. Aluminium. But that's easily compounded to make a large supply (To Compound F. Nicrosil you only need F. Aluminium, F. Nicrosil and A. Nicrosil... and we know there are medallions that grant 3 abilities).

I think the Excisors are just the origional F. Nicrosil and F. Aluminium granting Nicrosil-Metalminds that were left to them, which is needed to make a new Nicrosil-Metalmind.

This is a very good point, though again based on Wax and Marasi's descriptions of using the medallions I'm hesitant to lend it too much weight.

The thing is Allik tells Wax that he is correct in his presumption of how the Nicrosil/Medallions work. And it does make sense why everyone might be able to tap into an identityless Nicrosil Metalmind.

Think of it this way, you're a Nicrosil Feruchemist. You start storing your Investiture into some Nicrosil. Whilst you're doing that, you're suddenly no longer a Nicrosil Feruchemist... How are you supposed to continue storing Investiture when you're no longer a Feruchemist? Or tap that Investiture back?

Presumebly Nicrosil works slightly differently due to the very nature of it taking away your Investiture.

The Metalmind probably looks at the person, sees they have Feruchemical sDNA and sees that their Identity matches that of the Metalmind so allows it back into the person.

But when that Metalmind has no Identity tied to it? Anyone with Feruchemical sDNA (So everyone alive) can tap into the Metalmind.

They discussed this at the start that this might be a possibility. Allik confirms to Wax that his guess is indeed correct.

VenDell was wrong. Wax tries to tap the unlocked goldmind they stole from the Set, and he couldn't tap it. Only Wayne could.

 

“Why didn’t I notice what it was immediately?” Wayne said. “I had to be told. And, oh, rusts! This is proof of the Bands of Mourning, ain’t it?”

“No,” Wax said. “I can’t sense a reserve in the bracelet— I can’t use this, as I’m not a Bloodmaker. It’s not a metalmind anybody can use, just one that anyone with the right powers already can use.”

 

This doesn't mean nicrosil isn't something special that anyone can tap, but it's evidence against the idea.

Wayne's Gold Metalmind doesn't have any Nicrosil. It has probably been created by someone who's stored with Identity in Aluminium, then made a generic Gold Metalmind that any Bloodmaker can use. 

Now as for if you tap the Nicrosil or not;

“Investiture,” Waxillium said. “This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture— turning you into a temporary Feruchemist who has the ability to fill a metalmind with weight.” He held up the medallion. “The iron on this is for convenience, right? You can fill it, but so long as you’re tapping the Investiture, you could touch any source of iron and turn it into a metalmind.”

That, to me at least, makes it clear that you do actually tap the Nicrosil Metalmind to get the abilities.

Well, if they could figure out how to make a 16-metal-intertwined metalmind this way (according to Allik even 3 abilities is difficult) then sure they could make more Bands by compounding nicrosil. That's actually a clever way to stop the issue of rampant demigods on Brandon's part really, was worried about that.

I think The Bands of Mourning are different. Anyone who is a full Allomancer and full Feruchemist can make one. They store their Identity in Aluminiun, meaning any Metalmind they create can be tapped by anyone - and then they store their Investiture in Nicrosil. Anyone who then taps that Nicrosil becomes a full Allomancer and Feruchemist as long as the charge lasts.

The Medalions are different because at the most people only have one Allomantic ability and one Feruchemical one, meaning it requires technology to make them (as you need to be able to store Identity via Aluminium, the store Investiture via Nicrosil, that Investiture being the ability to use whatever Metal it is in the Medalion)

Emphasis mine

So using the band someone would have all the powers and can use them to make another band. After all that's how the Sovereign made the original band bypassing the skill problem.

The issue is that whilst using the Bands you're burning up part of the store of Nicrosil, so you could only split up the Bands into several? Though I suppose you might be able to compound Nicrosil - but we're not sure if that would work the same as normal Compounding.

I was wondering if rather than a Metal, it's an actual solid form of Investiture itself, somewhat like Stormlight on Roshar?

An Allomancer 'burns' a Metal allowing her to access the Investiture of Allomancy. What if Ettmetal is a physical piece of this Investiture, it would then explain how devices are then fueled by it. I would then presume the runes and etchings on devices would be some sort of Focus, working similarly to AonDor, causing the Investiture to copy the Intent/vibrations that the Allomancer causes?

Just because they call it a Metal, doesn't mean it necesseraly is - Although equally it could be Harmony's Metal I suppose.

Just a random fact: one of the atonyms of Odium is Honor... Though personally I really do see Devotion as being Odium's most likely opposite.
I thought a possible opposite of Honor would be something like Deceit/Deception or something to do with lies/stealing (dishonorable things)?
 

ParadoxSpren that would be very interesting, though at present with so many Intents missing I feel it would be pretty difficult to make a model :/

To be clear, I have no problems with burning metalminds and storing, and I believe this is what happening. However, you don't need to "loop" it in my model - that would be wasteful. You just want to burn metalminds which are partially charged, because it's wasteful to burn fully charged metalminds. You can burn metalmind #1, store 99% of what you get in metalmind #2, and store the other 1% in metalmind #3, then burn metalmind #3 for the same amount of power, then repeat with storing 99% in metalmind #2 and 1% in metalmind #4 (burning #4 and so on).

 

Of course, if this is what you mean by loop, I have no problems with it. I assumed you meant someone would burn a 1% charged metalmind, get a 10% charged one, then burn that for a 100% charged metalmind and then burn that - in my model, this wouldn't work, it wouldn't give you more power, you'd get a ton of power from the 1% metalmind and it would be equal to a 100% metalmind burned.

I think both our models are the same - however why Burn a Metalmind with a small amount of charge and only fill up one new Metalmind when you could Burn a full Metalmind and make like 10 new fully charged Metalminds? It's much more efficient. I was just using the figures 1% to 10% to 100% as an example, really you would just fill one Metalmind, burn it to create 10 full ones (or however many Compounding boosts your charge by)

But yes, the 'looping' is just repeating the process over and over to get a lot of charge.

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

Okay so Brandon has told us that the Metals in the Metalic Arts are what as known as a 'Focus'. It's their chemical compisition, their Atomic Arrangement Resonating which decides what happens when you use Allomancy with that Metal.

It is most likely that using a Metal as a Metalmind makes a fundamental change to the Metal (both it's actuall Atomic composition and it's Cognitive/Spiritual Components) which makes this Metal a 'new focus' or basically a new Metal.

When you 'burn' this new Metal, as with Allomancy, you're destroying it as you use it (otherwise Allomancers would have metal-poisoning).

Now I see the problem Kurkistan is having with this model - what's to stop someone just filling a house sized brick of Iron, turning it into a Metalmind and then having basically tons of Compounding material from nothing?

What I would say is that first of all, you add one hour of half speed into a huge brick, then swallow one hundreth of it? You're only going to be able to have access to 100th of the power stored. But then - the cube you're using is only a fraction Fermatic... So what I propose is that you can only use it for Compounding if it has a significant enough density of storage that it overrides the Allomantic property. (And like Moogle, I would say that the storage is distributed throughout the Metal unilaterally)

If you want, I can try to do some quote-woo to find where Brandon says that a Metalmind basically acts like a new Metal

In regards to the infinite looping, i'm like 90% sure that must be what is done, Brandon has said that you can Burn your Metalmind, then store this in a new Metalmind and then Burn that one for even more charge, and it's only logical that this is what Miles and the Lord Ruler does... If Wayne stores up for a week and can barely heal a scratch, how the hell can Miles regenerate his whole body over and over, without having obscene amounts of power stored up?

And unfortunately Kurkistan, as much as you don't like it as a plot device, we do know that Compounding works - to the effect that it causes people to be demi-gods, being able to heal any wound and reach immortality.

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Lord Juss (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

How does compounding work in Mistborn?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

The infinite loop compounding, like what Miles and the Lord Ruler does for insane healing goes like this:

Fill a Metalmind, let us go with Iron (say a small Metalmind with 1 'unit' of charge, say 1 hour at half speed). Burn said Metalmind and because the 'yet-unnamed-powersource' is fuelling it you get like 10 units of charge instead (in this case 10 hours at double speed). You then store this 10 units of double Speed into a new Metalmind... which you then burn, creating 100 units of charge.

Obviously this kind of infinite-loop-Compounding isn't possible for Bleeder as it would require having access to both Iron Feruchemy and Allomancy at the same time.

(I can not find the quote, but somewhere it is said that Compounding does amplify with each itteration. And I am pretty sure it was said it was like 10 times or something. I'll take a search. Though to be honest, even if it is only doubling each time, keep doubling the number 1 and it doesn't take long before you're reaching thousands...)

*edit* Found where I got the tenfold idea from, Alloy of Law:

If, what Moogle suggested is indeed possible, the Compounding Bleeder would have been a 1 time process per Metalmind.

Bleeder spent a week charging the Metalmind, swapped spike to one granting Iron Allomancy (something we do indeed see her using later on) and have 10 weeks of charge instead. HOWEVER this would require being able to Burn a Metalmind she'd filled with a different Hemalurgic Spike. Though I think this would be cool, I don't think it was done...

It makes no sense to me why Bleeder would not have used both Speed and Coinshotting at the same time, for example to deflect Wax's Bullets early on (around the time Bleeder killed Drim). If Bleeder did do this single-loop-Compounding she should have had access to both powers by also absorbing normal Iron to Burn?

Though personally I think the interesting thing is IF IT IS POSSIBLE, rather than if it were actually done.

This might help clear the air a bit, both in regards to a Returns need for a breath, and if a Returned is a Splinter.

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 18th, 2010

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Verbatim)

SKYLER

If a returned gives away his/her breath they die right? So why doesn't Vasher die after he gives his to Denth?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They will die the moment they run out of breath to harvest. Once a week their body needs a breath in order to survive. Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter. And when the seventh day comes, if a Returned does not have another breath for his body to consume to keep him alive, his body will actually eat his divine breath and kill him. So they don't die immediately after they get rid of the breath, they're sort of put into a state of limbo where if they don't find more breath by the time that their feast day comes, then they will die. (Vasher did not give his Returned breath to Denth, just a number of normal breaths.)

HOWEVER there is a bit of contradiction in his words, when you compare your quote "They are Highly Invested beings, but the Investiture is not sapient." with the quote below (Above he says that a Divine Breath is a Splinter, but your quote says that Returned's Investiture is not sapient, and below says that a Splinter has to be Self Aware... But he did say a Divine Breath was a Splinter, soo i'll go with presuming it is)

INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim)

WETLANDER

Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.

BRANDON SANDERSON

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

QUESTION

People?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

WETLANDER

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

WETLANDER

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

Anyway, I'm going to postulate a theory about Spren/Surgebinding using the terms "Investiture" "Activator" "Focus" and "Manifestation".
Obviously the Investiture is Stormlight and the Manifestation is Surgebinding - I've always felt like the Focus of Surgebinding is the Spren (or Honorblade), like the Metals or the Aons. Investiture is put into or through the Focus (Brandon has said it's the atomic make up of the Metal, the way it resonnates, that determines what magic Manifests, as it is the shape of the Aon that determines the magic that Manifests).
The nahel bond would then be the 'activator' that allows the user to do the magicmaking, by temporarily edditing the sDNA (Breaking the bond, changes your sDNA back so that you nolonger have access to Surgebinding).

As a Divine Breath is a Splinter it means that going to a new world it would be able to integrate itself (to a limit) with that world's magic system (as Shards, and Splinters of Shards have effect in a new magic system) - It wouldn't allow you access to Surges as it's not got enough power or sentience to do that sort of thing, but it would probably be enough to allow a Returned to absorb Stormlight (in the place of a Breath) and survive.

Even if that theory is totally off base I would still presume a Returned could absorb a mass amount of Stormlight and temporarily reach higher Heightenings, but as the Returned isn't a proper Vessel for Stormlight (apparently nothing is, even the pure form Gemhearts) it would escape quickly, meaning losing the Heightenings pretty soon...

Also, while you could definitely collect Breaths on Nalthis, arguably you wouldn't be able to use them to Awaken unless you had performed some complex spiritual hackery, or worked out how to spike someone hemalurgically to steal their Awakening. (Likewise, it's possible you wouldn't get the heightenings) You might be able to use them as investiture for other magic systems, but that would probably still require some degree of spiritual hackery. Hoid alludes to not having perfect pitch in the Stormlight Archive, so he suggests it's at least possible for someone from another planet to achieve Heightenings, but who knows exactly how he did it?

I'm pretty sure Brandon has stated that someone from a different world can be given a Breath, and that they would be able to use Awakenings. The closest quote I can find is "21st March 2014, WoR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim) Brandon Sanderson: So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath." But I think there was a more detailed one.

The unique thing about the people on Nalthis is that they are born with a breath, and having no breath makes them a Drab (Where someone from another planet who naturally doesn't have a Breath, isn't a Drab)

Also Hoid says that it is easier to play an instrument now that he has perfect pitch (so alluding he has reached the Second Heightening).

My WoB sense is tingling but I'm at a loss for where the WoB is located on theoryland. It was something about looking upon two splintered Shards from afar, one black and one white, and how from a distance they would look grey but I can't remember what it was tagged under. Anyone else know the one i'm thinking of? 

Does anyone know where this might be, because if it's a true quote (I feel like I have seen something like this myself) it would suggest that the two Splintered Shards have not merged to make one Splintered Super-Shard, however are basically acting as though they have;

I would say that without a mind controlling the powers of the Shards, they're still acting to a degree, effecting the world... However it's like the colour analogy - you add a bit of black here, and a bit of white here, you end up with grey - If a bit of Dominion's residue power effects something, then a bit of Devotion's residue power effects it too, you've basically got the same end result as if this 'Unity' did. Like how Feruchemy is both Preservation and Ruin, isn't it basically of Harmony?

Reviving this thread because of new information in Shadows of Self!

Paalm perhaps?

I don't think so 

This is awesome! Granted, I don't quite understand what it means in the context of what we've seen in previously mentioned long word document. 

 

Autonomy seems similar to wanting to just Survive by one's own devices. When I think of a person who's considered a survivalist, they are somebody with absolute autonomy because they don't require the aid of anybody else. Hmmm...is Bavadin our long referenced Survival Shard?

Personally I would have to disagree -  I would presume that Surival is the Shard not on a world (Brandon has said that there is a Shard not on a world, staying out of others business) and with the state of the Cosmere, that sounds like a wise plan if you want to Survive...

This is something I have actually been thinking on a lot myself recently, and I believe that it is highly possible that there could indeed be 16 Surges;
Brandon, as mentioned above, has stated that 10 is a special number to Honor as he has 10 purposes - each of which a Herald (and then an order of the Knights Radiant) represents. However this doesn't mean that there aren't more than 10 Surges. I feel it is highly possible that there are infact 16 and Honor only chose to use 10 for his Heralds as it was his number. It would be therefore entirely possible for other Surges to show up - if the Spren are able to figure out how to grant access to them.

​

Not particularly. There doesn't seem to be any special numbers to Awakening or the various Selish magic systems.

The thing is that we've technically seen very little from these magic systems and it is quite possible that there are special numbers (for example there could be 10 'orders' to the types of commands in Awakening)