Stormwalker

I thought I'd state my re-read theory before the WaT release. It's mostly pure conjecture, but I think the conventional accepted interpretation of the lifebrother is incorrect. Moreover, I have an unlikely theory of who the Lifebrother is.

Pt 1: The Lifebrother is a Shin concept

We have one reference in book for the Lifebrother (idk if there are any WOB about it). It is here in tWoK pg975 (Taravingian speaking to Szeth):

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"Yes, I speak your language. Sometimes I wonder if the Lifebrother himself sent you to me."

"To bloody myself so that you wouldn't have to," Szeth said. "Yes, that sounds like something one of your Vorin gods would do."

Seemingly, the conventional interpretation (which the coppermind states as fact with only this passage cited) is that this means the Lifebrother is a Vorin concept. However, I feel that this an incorrect reading of the passage. We have never heard of the Lifebrother, either before or after this, so it seems incredibly unlikely to be a Vorin idea. Instead, it seems far more likely that the Lifebrother is a Shin concept.

The key evidence is the context before this quote. Taravingian has just quoted a Shin proverb in the Shin language and then goes on to immediately say this. Taravingian isn't trying to be a devout Vorin here, he's trying to boast his knowledge to Szeth to impress him by showing he even understands the Shin. Szeth's response is then not saying that the Lifebrother is in fact a Vorin god. He's saying that Taravingian, though he knows the concept/name, clearly doesn't understand their culture, because this isn't the type of thing their god would do.

Pt 2: Pure conjecture on the Lifebrother's true identity

My pet theory is that the Lifebrother is Ba-Ado-Mishram the unmade, and brother to the Sibling.

The Shin religion seems to be a Remanent of old beliefs in early Roshar. We know Shinovar was the land humans were first given when they came to Roshar. And this seems to match their belief to not walk on stone -- ie, the rest of Roshar, where they were not allowed to be (although I admit I'm confused as to when this prohibition started, given we see Shin on stone in the desolations and presumably in the Shin invasion).

We also see that BAM was able to connect to all parshmen in the false desolation, which makes me think BAM might have been a natural part of Roshar before Odium unmade it. (I'm skipping over that I think the unmade weren't from Odium originally and were instead corrupted). If one believes BAM was originally a natural spren of Roshar, then it would make sense that the Shin had it as a mythological figure.

Lastly, I wonder nowadays, why The Sibling is called just that. Who is The Sibling a sibling to? The first answer you'd think of is the other bondsmith spren, but they are never called the Brother/Sister, so why name The Sibling that. The Sibling needs a sibling and the Lifebrother is the only other sibling figure on the planet that we know of. Moreover, this makes particular sense given BAM's capture. We know the capturing of BAM affected (injured?) The Sibling. This makes sense if they are naturally closely related/connected, just as the parshmen were connected with BAM. We also know one needs to intimately understand an unmade to capture it (see Shallan and Dalinar with the Midnight Mother and the Thrill). This then explains that Milishi could understand BAM so, because he understood the Sibling.

37 minutes ago, beewall said:

This is a common theory, but one I would disagree with. Willshapers (Kalak's order) sound much less Honor-y than Dustbringers (Chana's order) to me, for example. At least, based on the order mottos we have for them. And unless there's some reveals coming about Kalak and Chana's genders, this would seem to break the pattern. 

Also, it would be weird for Bondsmiths to lean Honor, when the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. 

I don't really know much about either of those orders. But I don't see how it is out of the question that Willshapers are Honor-leaning and Dustbringers are Cultivation-leaning with our current knowledge. As for Bondsmiths, they literally do exactly what Honor's intent is -- they bond things together. I can't see how they could be any more Honor-leaning. The fact that one can bond the Nightwatcher seems irrelevant.

On 10/28/2020 at 11:52 PM, Bzhydack said:

@StormwalkerIts very plausible theory! I like IT.

But, i think we can upgrade IT. 

I think Dai-Gonarthis is brain bug. I have theory that he is able to mental manipulation and causes long-burning conflicts - so this will make him Cognitive brain bug.

Spiritual - BAM

Cognitive - Dai-Gonarthis

Physical - Re-Sephir.

So, this mean Chemoarish will be Physical corrupter - what make sense. She is Dustmother, Mother-of-dust. Is possibile that she is most Physical Unmade, with ability to literaly decay things? Ashertmarn seems to have some temporal abilities, maybe she Has them too?

Could be. As I said, Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish can mostly be interchanged as we know too little about them.

On 10/29/2020 at 0:53 AM, Halyo_Alex said:

Personal hypothesis (based partly on her name of Dustmother, partly on her alleged involvement in the Scouring of Aimia with Yelig-Nar) is that she can degrade the sense of logic that people have, making them do stupid or dangerous stuff in pursuit of reasonable goals...

dangerous stuff like agreeing to use Yelig-Nar's power for "good purposes", but then falling victim to his power, and thus causing the Scouring.

Are you saying that there's evidence that the Dustmother and Yelig-nar were involved in the scouring of Aimia? Are you confusing it with Hessi's claim that Dai-gonarthis (the black fisher) was involved? Or is there some information I don't know of?

18 hours ago, kaellok said:

There's more to it than just that, though.  WoB have given us that there's a close link between Stormfather and Honor, as well as Nightwatcher and Cultivation.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yeah, the WoB of the parallel between the Nightwatcher and Stormfather is pretty damning for my theory. As you say, it doesn't completely disprove it, but it does seem likely dead. I just can't but help but think the Sibling is going to be an odd man out, otherwise. Unless, instead the Sibling is related to Odium in some way (which honestly was a previous belief of mine), but that also seems unlikely.

1 hour ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I know that a lot of the older spren don't have genders because they are so much older, and I think forgotten, by most of mankind. You've definitely got a point, though, that stuff about Stormfather. Stormfather was a big spren before he was melded with Honor, any ideas who/what he was then? Was he a Bondsmith spren before being merged with Honor, or only after?

Well, I think he still had to be a Bondsmith spren. As we know there were 3 of them. Perhaps the Stormfather could be the corresponding spren of Adonalsium itself, considering we know Adonalsium had some influence on the planet before it shattered.

Although, now that I think of your gender objection. Maybe there's an argument there just in terms of symmetry of genders. There does seem something to that in terms of the Heralds being split 5 and 5. And I think I might have heard the 5 males correspond to more Honor-leaning orders and the 5 females correspond to more Cultivation-leaning orders. Although I don't know how much of that is actually known to be true. If it was, however, one would expect Honor's spren to also be male to complete the symmetry, counter to my theory.

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Those are good points, @Stormwalker but on the other hand, why was the Stormfather chosen by Honor to absorb his Cognitive Shadow? How was Honor able to pass on his duties, like creating Honorspren to the Stormfather before dying? How come the Highstorm distributed not just crem but Stormlight, Honor's Investiture?

Yeah, I guess the Stormlight is a bit of a problem. Do we know for sure that Stormlight is specifically Honor's investiture? Was it there before he visited the planet? For the other points, why he chose the stormfather is unclear. Perhaps due to whatever happened to the sibling. The power to create Honorspren of course would come from Honor adding his own investiture to the Stormfather as he was dying.

25 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I like the direction you're going, but I'm not sure you're hitting the nail on the head. IMO, the Sibling is likely older than the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, seeing as the Sibling does not assign itself a gender(typically a sign of older spren).

Is there a reference to that being a sign of older spren? I haven't heard anything of that. Regardless, perhaps the gender of the Stormfather changed after Honor invested him. Or perhaps it slowly changed over the millennia as humans conflated him both with Honor and the Heralds Jezrien and Kelek.

26 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

Also, I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that the Stormfather is related to Tanavast, something with Splinters and Shards that I don't have the time to investigate. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormfather

The Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. But that can just be because of what Honor did to him when he (Honor) was dying. The Stormfather is also apparently regarded as a Sliver of Honor because he merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow  -- again, an event that happened as Honor was dying.

Of the three Bondsmith spren -- The Nightwatcher, the Stormfather, and the Sibling -- it is generally accepted that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren and the Stormfather is Honor's. However, recently this has struck me as a bit odd. We are told (via WoB) that the storm on Roshar, as well as the spren and the parsh people existed on Roshar pre-Honor's arrival. So shouldn't we expect that the Stormfather existed as the spren of the Storm before Honor arrived? Obviously the idea that the Stormfather being Honor's spren makes sense in the current times, now that Honor has given him extra power/sentience. However, do we actually have any evidence besides this that the Stormfather is actually his spren? Why couldn't Honor, in his last days, give this power to a different spren? That's why I'm starting to think that of the three, it is really the Sibling that was Honor's spren, and that the Stormfather is a tertiary spren (perhaps of Adonalsium, who presumably made the storm).

Of the theory that the Sibling is Honor's spren we also have one other interesting point of evidence. We are told in WoR, that the Radiants built Urithuru where it is, rather than in Alethela, because they wanted it to be "closer to Honor". We also have a variety of evidence that the Sibling was fundamentally related to the tower itself. Perhaps the Sibling, being the spren of Honor, was located in the mountain of Urithuru (right next to the Cultivation's Valley, as seems fitting), and this is what the Radiants meant when they said they wanted it close to Honor -- that is, close to his spren.

We also know, that during the time of the recreance, that the Sibling went to 'sleep' -- whatever that means. Whether this was due to the recreance itself, Melishi's (who I suspect was bonded to him) role in the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram, or, as this theory allows, due to Honor's own death, perhaps this was the reason Honor chose not to give a part of himself to the Sibling, and instead went with the Stormfather.

On 7/30/2019 at 10:15 PM, ZenBossanova said:

One of the prime reasons for the Industrial Revolution in England, was the shortage of labor. The Black Plague had eliminated enough people that they needed to automate things. 

On Roshar, they have just lost a lot of manual labor. They are ripe for their own industrial Fabrial Revolution. They have the technology and the understanding.

Am I the only one who wonders at the premise of this thread? I'm no historian, but the black plague happened centuries before the industrial revolution. Moreover, what I remember from history class is the exact opposite. The industrial revolution happened right after the agricultural revolution in England. They didn't have less people for labour, they instead had way more people than they needed to provide their necessities, allowing them time to do other crafts. Sorry if I'm derailing this into a mundane discussion.

Edit: I guess this would even suggest the opposite. That Roshar is far away from any industrial revolution of its own.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You are switching categories. The mindless Unmade are grouped by their mental faculties, while the rest is not. If yoy real want to group the by that, you'd end up with

- the Mindless: Ashertmarn, Nergaoul, Moelach

- the Alens: Re-Shephir. She showed some sapience but did not understand people

- the Humans: Sja-Anat, Yelig-Nar, Ba-Ado-Mishram

If you insist that the groups be of equal size (which we have proof of) Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish would need to go into the Alien category

You are assuming my names for the categories are themselves the determining factor. There might be many similarities between the unmade of one category.

For example, the first categories unmade are all mindless, but according to Hessi, they also seem to act on both sides of the conflict equally, unlike the other unmade. Perhaps the determiner is then how the unmade act on others, and not their consciousness. One could say that the mindless unmade are forces that affect both sides symmetrically, my "corrupters" are individuals affecting the enemy, and the leaders are things that affect (odium's) allies.

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Nergaoul was known for driving forces into battle rage, lending them great ferocity. Curiously, he did this to both sides of a conflict, Voidbringer and human. This seems common in the less self-aware spren.

(Relevant quote from Hessi)

Each category could have many similarities that separate it from the rest. In fact, now that I think of it, one could easily theorize that the corrupters (Yelig-nar and Sja-anat as we've seen) are individuals, and the leaders (Re-Shephir as we've seen) are hive minds. B-A-M being some sort of hive mind would fit with her connecting to all the parsh, and would also fit Chemoarish being called a 'mother'.

Nonetheless, I am actually quite flexible on what the categories are, as I do feel there are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of my theory seems forced. I do, however, really like there being 3 groups of 3.

Idea: On my recent re-read of Oathbringer it came to me that perhaps unmade come in 3 different groups.

First, the facts:

Most of the information we have on unmade in general seem to come from the in-world book, Hessi's Mythica. Of course it can be disputed whether Hessi was right about her claims, but given how accurately (surprisingly so) her information lines up with what we have directly seen about the unmade (The thrill and Moelach mostly), I feel we can mostly trust her, and I will assume she is mostly correct from now on. Regardless of this, I believe we have WoB that there are indeed 9 unmade, and Hessi combined with a choice deathrattle epigraph in tWoK leads us to list these as the 9 unmade:

• Ashertmarn/the Heart of the Revel
• Nergaoul/the Thrill
• Yelig-nar/the Blightwind
• Sja-anat/the Taker of Secrets
• Re-Shephir/the Midnight Mother
• Moelach
• Ba-Ado-Mishram (B-A-M)
• Dai-Gonarthis/the Black Fisher
• Chemoarish/the Dustmother

Now of these, the first 5 we've directly seen (as of Oathbringer), Moelach we've indirectly seen, B-A-M we've heard a lot about, Dai-Gonarthis we've heard a tiny bit amount, and the Dustmother we've heard nothing about (as far as I'm aware). I will say this here, that clearly this means anything I say about Dai-Gonarthis and the Dustmother is going to be pure speculation, and are realistically just wildcards in any theory about the unmade.

However, we know one other important piece of information about the unmade as a whole, and that is that 3 of the unmade are basically mindless forces:

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Lore suggested leaving a city if spren start acting strangely. Curiously, Sja-anat was often regarded as an individual, when others--like Moelach or Ashertmarn--were seen as forces.

Quote

Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, is the final of the three great mindless Unmade. His gift to men is not prophecy or battle focus, but is lust for indulgence. Indeed, the great debauchery recorded form the court of Bayala in 480--which led to dynastic collapse--might be attributable to the influence of Ashertmarn.

(from Hessi's Mythica as part of the epigraphs of Oathbringer.)

So apparently, these three unmade -- Ashertmarn, Nergaoul, and Moelach -- form a category of "mindless" unmade. Now, to me, it felt weird that there would just be three unmade that were singled out as mindless and the rest more sentient. Moreover, the fact that it was exactly three of them (3 goes in into 9 perfectly), made me theorize my main point: that there are 3 different categories of 3 unmade each.

The Theory:

The corrupters

So the question is: What are the 2 other categories of unmade? My own thoughts about this come from Yelig-nar. Yelig-nar has always seemed to me like a corrupter of people. You start with only a moderately evil guy like Amaram or Aesudan (or possibly one of Nohadon's own men of learning?), you give them a gemstone, and you get a super powerful, super evil monstrosity. The idea of using power as an incentive to corrupt people also seems fitting. Because of this, I think Yelig-nar should be grouped with Sja-anat in the category of "corrupting" unmade. Sja-anat is the corrupter of spren, and Yelig-nar is a corrupter of people.

As to the third unmade in this category, I'm somewhat split. I have 2 candidates: Re-Shephir and Dai-gonarthis. Dai-gonarthis, as pointed out is a wildcard, and is mostly a hunch that I can't really explain well, but Re-Shephir has some evidence. Namely, we see in Oathbringer, that the midnight essences that the midnight mother creates seem to be corrupted forms of other things. e.g., looking like people Re-Shephir has seen, but with features that are off, or the distorted forms of beasts. The main reason I dislike Re-Shephir in this category, in fact, is that I just prefer her in the next one.

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It was Navani, a gaping hole in her face, black smoke escaping with a hiss. Even ignoring that, the features were off. The nose too big, one eye a little higher than the other.

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The newer figures forming up were increasingly distorted, more bestial, spiny teeth spilling from their mouths.

(Oathbringer, p305,306, describing midnight essences)

The brain bugs

The last category is mostly centered around the role (as we know it) of B-A-M. The unmade, being splinters of Odium and possibly his analogue of the heralds, seem to me like they should include the role of the leaders and generals of his war-effort/people -- the brain bugs, if you will, of the voidbringers (I don't know why I like calling them that so much, I haven't even read the starship troopers books, only seen the movie). This is of course most clearly seen in B-A-M herself, who Hessi claimed was a commander during some of the Desolations and who was able to power the voidbringers in the false desolation. The 2 other unmade I would like to put in this category are Re-Shephir and the Dustmother (with Dai-gonarthis swapped in for Re-Shephir of course if you prefer her in the previous category). The reason I put Re-Shephir here, is because she too acts like a general of sorts. Not of humans or parshendi, but of her own midnight essences. One could imagine that all we've seen is a small use of her power (perhaps due to fear, surprise, or a lack of command/connection to Odium), and that in the full swing of a desolation, the midnight mother commands a whole army of essences, and thus surely deserves a spot as a commander of Odium. The Dustmother then seems like a likely candidate for this category as well. Although we know next to nothing about her, the inclusion of the word mother in her name, just as in Re-Shephir's, makes me think she also spawns something, and so might have a similar role.

The sub-theory: finer divisions

Going further with less evidence, I think we may be able to subdivide these categories even more. Namely, I propose that each of the 3 unmade in a category correspond to the 3 realms.

Lets start with the mindless unmade as they are the most familiar. The easiest one here is Moelach, who as far as we know, grants brief future sight as people are dying as seen in the form of deathrattles. I believe we know by WoB (although I have no reference to it) that seeing the future is associated with the spiritual realm, so I feel Moelach should be a spiritual unmade. Next is Ashertmarn. Ashertmarn seemingly makes people want to indulge in the physical pleasures, so I put him as a physical unmade. Lastly, we have Nergaoul. Nergaoul is what gives the thrill, which I feel can only be described as a state of mind, where the afflicted is in a state of bloodlust, and is otherwise, well, not thinking at all. Like they've been robbed of thought. Thus, we put him as a cognitive unmade. It also appears, although perhaps it is a coincidence, that Nergaoul and Moelach are not visible (ie, seemingly not in the physical realm) when they cause their effect (the end of Oathbringer excluded, where Odium actively brings Nergaoul into the physical realm). Ashertmarn, on the other hand, was physically manifested in Kholinar where his influence was. Perhaps each unmade chiefly resides in its corresponding realm, although this isn't necessary to the theory.

Next, the corrupters. Right off the bat we have Sja-anat, who, as the corrupter of spren, clearly deserves to be called a cognitive unmade. Next up is Yelig-nar, who corrupts people by radically altering their spiritual aspect -- as evidenced by giving them powers and forming a bond. He is also said to consume souls, which certainly sounds spiritual in nature. For this I put him as the spiritual corrupter. Lastly, we still know nothing of Dai-gonarthis, but if Re-Sphephir is a corrupter, she certainly would fit being the physical one, as she merely corrupts the physical form of the things that she copies.

Lastly, the leaders. B-A-M clearly deserves to be the spiritual leader, given that she connected with the parsh and allowed them access to voidlight in the false desolation. Re-shephir, if here, again seems like a physical leader. After all, her essences don't really have a mind of their own, they are merely physical bodies that are commanded. And that leaves the Dustmother as the cognitive leader, which in my mind, even makes sense if you count as evidence that she should be similar enough in some way to the Nightwatcher that myth could conflate the two.

Thus, in the end, we have this list of the categorization of unmade:

Mindless unmade:

• Ashertmarn - physical
• Nergaoul - cognitive
• Moelach - spiritual

Corrupter unmade:

• Dai-gonarthis/Re-shephir - physical
• Sja-anat - cognitive
• Yelig-nar - spiritual

Leader unmade:

• Re-Shephir/Dai-gonarthis - physical
• Dustmother - cognitive
• Ba-ado-Mishram - spritual

And that's the theory.

tldr: 3 categories of unmade, each one containing one unmade associated in some way with each of the realms.

It might be worth noting that another name for the 180 degree rotational symmetry seen in the void surges is antisymmetry, which might suggest an inverted relationship to the (symmetric) KR surges. It also might make sense why it is paired with the Shadesmar map then, as Shadesmar also displays some inverted qualities to the physical realm (e.g. land is water, water is land).

ps: I haven't visited the site in a couple years, so hello to those who may remember me (but probably don't, as I didn't post that much anyway). It's nice to see some familiar names are still here.

Well, steelsight is technically a sense, even if it isn't a mundane one. It seems plausible that it gets enhanced by tin. Especially since Marsh probably thought of it as sight.

 

1. Spren flying around. There can be multiple radiant spren around one proto radiant; the presence of six does not mean there are six proto radiants. Shallan saw several cryptic spren through her drawings, and yet bonded only one.

Thats true. Although Eshonai herself only saw one. I'm just saying that if the first comet spren was because Eshonai was a protoradiant, then it seems unlikely that Kaladin, when he wasn't near Eshonai, would see many. I don't mean to say that the theory is definitely out, just that (unless it has something to do with Szeth being there) the theory seems unlikely with this evidence.

As for the screams, that was mostly a side point. Before I saw this second comet spren passage, I was also doubtful whether the screams Eshonai heard were from the spren she saw, or from the rhythm (I'll admit I still am to some degree). However, now Kaladin also happens to hear screams at the same time he sees these spren. You say that Kaladin's screams are the same as those that Szeth hears, but I don't see any more evidence for that than the comet spren. Kaladin has certainly never heard those screams before as far as I'm aware. I know two data points isn't very much, but how many can we expect in a single book? And we are still 2/2 for screams with comet spren sightings.

 

There are other times when people hear screaming, but no red spren are around, too. The combination in a few instances seems coincidence, not design. Dalinar heard no screaming when neara red spren in his flashback, after all.

Um... I'm not saying all screaming is caused by the comet spren, nor was I speculating that all void spren cause screaming (I don't remember Dalinar's red spren being cometlike). So I'm not sure what you're saying here.

It is very important to note that listeners and humans see spren differently.

Really? I don't remember that. Can you give an example? It again would seem like a really big coincidence if that was true and Kaladin was seeing a completely different spren.

I really don't see how either of the commonly presented theories are wrong based on what you've said so far. Nothing says the red spren were the cause of the screams, just that he saw them at the same time as he heard the noises. We also know that Szeth hears screaming all the time now, and it's probably related to one of the Unmade (on my phone now, hard to find/copy/paste the WoB I'm referencing.)

Well, it seems odd that Kaladin would just-so-happen to hear screams when he sees the same spren that was associated with Eshonai hearing screams. As the Alethi armies had already gone through the Oathgate, the fighting would have been done at this time. The parshendi would have still been there, but who knows how far away they would have been at the time (I assume they retreated after losing the fighting). As Kaladin was in the middle of a highstorm, and couldn't even hear Szeth talking a mere two sentences before, who else could he have been hearing?

In any case, the reason I thought that this implies the theories are wrong, was that 1) Kaladin sees the spren; and 2) there are spren plural. (1) means that the encounter of the spren with Eshonai wasn't special, and so it ceases to be great evidence of radiant sprenhood. (2) means that if they were radiant spren, there must be many protoradiants nearby, which is unlikely to be the case. So together, it seems like evidence against the aforementioned theories.

In WoB, Eshonai, after changing into stormform sees a peculiar cometlike spren:

Eshonai waved her hand as she climbed the central spire of Narak trying to shoo away the tiny spren. It danced around her head, shedding rings of light from its comelike form. Horrid thing. Why would it not leave her alone?

...

That rhythm! It sounded like... like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spren shot out.

WoR I-11, pg 711

In various threads I've seen the theory that the comet spren Eshonai sees is either a radiant spren that she has attracted (usually a willshaper one) or that of her shardblade. Someone even mentioned that there is a WoB confirming the spren is related to one of the orders. I assume they are talking about this:

Sir Jerric

Do we see the highspren at all in Words of Radiance? And if so, do they look like a comet?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a good question. That's a gooood, good question. I will say this, the comet, hmm, the comet spren. The comet spren is very important to an order of Knights Radiant.

(http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27comet%20spren%27)

However, I think we see this spren in one other place:

 

Kaladin was sure he heard terrible screams over the winds, as red spren he'd never seen before--like small meteors, trailing light behind them--zipped around him.

WoR Ch 86, pg 1039 (during the fight between szeth and kaladin, just after they reached the recently-emptied oathgate plateau)

Now, the void spren we've seen are described as lightning-like I believe, so this isn't them; small meteors trailing light sound like a comet to me. Again, in their presence are screams (just like what Eshonai heard), however there are apparently more than one of them, and Eshonai is nowhere to be seen (having earlier fallen down a chasm). In fact, Kaladin and Szeth are the only two people close by. Maybe the rest of the parshendi are one or two plateaus away, but not really close.

This seems to me like the above theories are wrong. We are somewhat near the parshendi I suppose, so maybe if others are also proto-radiants it could work, but that seems unlikely to me. Otherwise I don't see how it could be the case. The theory that it is Eshonai's shardblade spren in particular is definitely out, as then there should only be the one spren.

All in all, I'm confused as to why Kaladin sees these spren here at all given the above WoB. Anyone have any thoeries? The best I can think of is that Brandon only says the spren is important, not that it is directly related, so it may be more tangential than was thought. WoB notwithstanding, spren that bring screams sound like some sort of void spren to me.

Edit: Perhaps if the cometspren is a high spren, and there were only two: one for Eshonai and one for Szeth, then it might work. Although again, why would Eshonai's spren be so far from her?

I don't think allomancy works that simply with respect to Newton's laws. When you push on a coin that is blocked by a fixed object (like the ground) you go flying into the air, but if it isn't fixed in place, then the coin goes flying and you barely move. If the knock-back was governed entirely by Newton 3, than it should be the same in both cases. Empirically, it seems like when you push on something, one object (out of you or the pushed-on object) feels a lot of force, while the other feels a small amount of force. Which one (and I imagine the proportions as well) is determined by the relative masses of the two objects. Hence (if that is the case) weight would come into play with allomantic strength in that more of the pushing force is applied to the object instead of you.

If Hoid does have enough breath to have perfect pitch, then he should be able to see when there's a lot of Investiture nearby. Pattern, suppressed or not, is a lot of Investiture. So... Maybe he saw that and was surprised?

That might well be it. Although pattern is really just another spren. Does he really have more investiiture than any other spren? It isn't like Hoid had been around her long enough to know that pattern is constantly with her (if indeed he is). Moreover, as far as I can tell, she isn't surgebinding at this time, so I don't think she she would have extra investiture herself either. I was hoping it might have something to do with how Hoid always knows where to be (which must have predated him getting Breath). Perhaps some kind of interaction with the spiritual realm.

As for being surprised to find investiture in a small girl, I wouldn't think that really adds to the surprise. Allomancy is genetic, so there must be kids with Allomantic abilities on Scadrial, and so kids with investiture/powers shouldn't be that odd. Shallan is 14 (I believe) at this time, so it isn't like she's really young, anyway.

I don't know if it has been remarked before, but Hoids reaction to first seeing Shallan (in one of the flashbacks) seems very interesting:

 

A man she did not know sat next to Father with a cup of chilled water in one hand. Tall, slender, and blue-eyed, he had a deep black hair without a hint of impurity and wore clothing the same shade. He glanced at Shallan as she stepped up into the box.

 

The man started, dropping his cup to the table. He caught it with a swift lunge, keeping it from tipping over, then turned to stare at her with a slack jaw.

(WOR Chapter 45, page 522)

Now, while it could be just normal Hoid antics, it seems to me like he was genuinely surprised at the sight of her. As there really isn't anything else about her of note at this time, it seems to me that it can only be that Hoid could tell that she was a surgebinder. In which case, how can Hoid tell? Can he tell whether anybody is able to use investiture, or did he just see something specific to surgebinders (maybe he could see pattern, even though he was almost dead)? Moreover, I'm inclined to believe the sight of even a surgebinder shouldn't cause such a reaction. Perhaps Hoid didn't think there were surgebinders around anymore, and Shallan was the first one he saw. I'm not sure what that would mean, but it definitely seems interesting.

What is the basis of your assumption that Heralan was working for Skybreakers? Is it only the fact that Mraize mentioned about him searching the Skybreakers? Then a legitimate question will be - how did Mraize know? Did Heralan initially approach Mraize? If so it can't be a stretch to assume that Mraize convinced him to work for him, atleast temporarily.

I don't think Helaran would have to have approached Mraize for him to know about it. He could have easily known from the informants that the Ghostbloods probably have (I'm guessing). He could have also found this out researching Shallan's family after figuring out Veil's identity.

Twenty's point is also an excellent one. There doesn't seem to be much point for the Skybreakers to want Amaram dead. From the fact that he doesn't seem concerned by the touch of a Shardblade, we the readers can guess that he's not actually a Surgebinder, so in order for them to attack him in the first place, Nale would have had to believe strongly enough Amaram was a Surgebinder to commit to revealing a hidden Shardbearer in order to kill him, and still be wrong. Possible? Yes. Certainly far from presumptive, and frankly it strikes me as unlikely. But I concede, that's just me.

 

You are free to assume anything you'd like about Helaran's affiliation, but you must concede that it doesn't seem to make that much sense. Why would the Skybreakers, who apparently exist for this one purpose, get this so dreadfully wrong, trying to kill an important Marshallord who isn't even a Surgebinder? Weighed against the fact that the only evidence is "Shallan's brother sought the Skybreakers," not saying if he ever found them or not, let alone thereafter decided to join them, let alone was allowed to...

Well, we have seen the Skybreakers target surgebinders, but the reason they are apparently doing it, is because (they believe) it causes desolations. If preventing desolations is the main purpose of the Skybreakers, then it does make sense for them to go after Amaram, who, as a Son of Honour, wanted/was trying to bring about a desolation. Perhaps Nale did not have enough on Amaram to kill him via the law (which makes sense, as he is a lighteyes, and so it would probably be hard to commit such a crime in Alethkar—an important distinction between him and Lift/Ym), and so the only means of eliminating him was through the battle. After the attempt failed, Amaram broke his leg and did not join any other battles, explaining why the Skybreakers never tried to kill him again.

In any case, the comment about Heleran seeking out the Skybreakers is just about the only information we have on the matter. I wouldn't say it is conclusive, but I would think it makes the Skybreaker theory a lot more likely than any other right now. (However, I must say I'm intrigued by your Restares idea—Gavilar was quick to think of Restares being behind his assassination, so you could be on to something).

Are there any forms of resurrection in the Cosmere besides being Returned?

There is another form of resurrection in the Cosmere that we know of: the heralds always come back to life after dying. They also happen to reappear on Roshar at the time of a desolation (which just so happens to start later that book, judging by maybe-taln).

IIRC, we know by WoB that Hoid is not a herald, although I suppose he could have still joined the oathpact at some point (he can't have been originally in it by WoB). I don't think this is likely to be the case, but I guess it is a possibility.

Stepping aside from the soulcasting drains innate investiture theory, what if the physical changes are due to repeated visits to Shadesmar. I admit we don't know how the ardents soulcast but the ardents in the WoK I-8 interlude talk about visits to Shadesmar. We have seen spren capable of hurting humans there. Though again I don't think that is the cause of their physical changes. Point is Shadesmar is an unknown territory so frequently visiting there may be the reason of these changes.

Possible, but I feel that, that is not likely the case. We have seen quite a few worldhoppers, and I believe we know that worldhopping involves going the Shadesmar in some way. Yet, none of these worldhoppers seemed to show the same symptoms as the ardents, and so at the very least, it doesn't seem likely to be a passive effect of entering shadesmar. And if some sort of spren was causing it, but then not all the ardents should have manifested the symptoms, even after prolonged use of the soulcasters. As for unknown things in shadesmar, of course, it is impossible to say.

 

Brandon's confirmed the soul is Investiture, but I think you slightly misinterpreted my argument. Drabs, whether or not they've lost all their innate Investiture, have lost some of it. The effects don't include physical deformities. You're more irritable, get sick more often, and your eyes seem to sparkle less. If Soulcasters are draining Investiture from the soul, that should have a similar effect as a Drab giving up their Breath - and Soulcasters have eyes that "sparkle like gemstones", whereas Drabs lose the sparkle in their eyes. So, I don't think they are losing much, and rather are gaining something.

You're right, I misinterpreted you. Nonetheless, the fact that Drabs don't have physical deformities is largely irrelevant to my argument. It is still clear that Nightblood's draining of the soul does produce a physical deformity.

 

When he had barely gotten a thin sliver of blade free, a dark, fluidlike smoke began to stream out. Some dripped to the ground; other tendrils of it snaked out and wrapped around the man’s arm, drawing the color from his skin.

Warbreaker. Ch.21

We already know this is an effect of draining innate investiture. The fact that drabs don't already suffer this fate is a different question altogether (perhaps there is two levels of innate investiture: one that is the equivalent of your innate breath (which drabs lose), and the more basic investiture required to live, from which your soul is made?). The idea was that soulcasters have a similar mechanism as Nightblood in regards to draining investiture, which was already established to cause a physical deformity not present in drabs.

 Also: Radiants gain lighter eyes because their spren add to their spiritweb, and so it seems like less innate Investiture on Roshar should cause dark eyes. Again, we find Soulcasters have gem-colored eyes as opposed to dark eyes.

I interpreted the phrase 'transformed the eyes so that they sparkled like gemstones themselves' to mean that the eyes had actually started turning into gemstones (or something similar), just as how their skin was turning into stone. I don't think it just meant their eyes were a lighter colour or had a sparkle to them.

I feel like a lot of your argument for the comparison between soulcasting and savants has to do with the fact that both are described as something similar to 'not completely human'. However, I don't really think what could easily be a chance similarity in words is a valid basis for an argument. Many things could make one look 'not completely human', that doesn't mean they are all related. Moreover, my argument explains well why they would be considered not completely human: they have lost part of their soul—the very thing that makes them human.

As some soft evidence for my position, this also perhaps explains why soulcasters and regrowth fabrials are so rare. If anybody could use them, why didn't they give them out to everybody? It would eliminate starvation and injury throughout the land. However, if using them without being a radiant meant permanent destruction of one's soul, it would make sense that only the radiants use them, and thus there isn't need for huge numbers of them.

We have another example of people in the cosmere who've lost part of (all?) their innate Investiture: Drabs. They don't become physically deformed.

Well, I don't know if drabs have lost all their innate investiture. In a post you, yourself made, I think you explain quite well that the WoB are conflicting on whether Drabs have any innate investiture left. I'll put the relevant WoB in a spoiler:

Moreover, I believe we do know Nightblood kills by sucking the soul from someone, and I'm pretty sure the soul is investiture. In any case, I meant for the soulcasters to work like nightblood—clearly nightblood does something even to drabs. My idea was that the soulcasters do the same thing, whatever it is (which I believe is draining innate investiture/the soul).

As to Surgebindings not harming the person, Stormlight heals you passively, and would prevent that.

I suppose I can't argue with you there. Although, do we know if Stormlight can heal innate investiture loss? I guess it can repair one's spiritweb (in the form of healing shardblade wounds). But I wonder if that is the same thing.

The key description, I think, is that they are "no longer completely human". This fits in very well with the description of Inquisitors and other Hemalurgic creations, as well as Allomantic savants (at least, the tin variety). I strongly suspect this means there's a change or addition to their spiritwebs, not a removal of anything.

I think it is a bit much to compare soulcasting fabrials with Inquisitors and Koloss. Hemalurgy represents a massive changing of the spiritweb by literally attaching a piece of somebody else's spiritweb to yourself. I don't think use of a soulcaster, even over many years is going to produce such an effect. If it did, then why wouldn't all magic users in the cosmere suffer the same fate? You can use Allomancy for years without having any deterimental effects, as long as you don't use it constantly.

Moreover, in regards to Savantism, I don't think it is comparable. Savants, as far as I'm aware, never manifest any sort of physical deformity. IIRC tin Savants gain very sensitive senses, pewter savants stop feeling pain and exhaustion, and bronze savants don't seem to have any physical effect beyond better usage of bronze. In each case, being a Savant seems to heighten the natural benefits of whatever type of allomancy it uses, it never adds a random physical deformity.

Now, you might say that prolonged soulcasting syndrome is related to the magic that causes it—it turns people to stone, and, as we saw, the ardents were creating stone. The problem with this, is that as far as I know, the main use of soulcasters was creating food, not buildings. So why did the ardents turn to stone instead of into food? Or into metal? Or anything else? I suppose there might be different groups of ardents for each essence, but we don't have any evidence of that. If perhaps we end up seeing an ardent who manifests the syndrome in other ways, than this might work, but as of now, 5/5 soulcasting ardents have turned to stone.

Nonetheless, I will admit, spiritweb alteration is a plausible thoery. I just don't see any particularly convincing evidence for it.

My main problem with this idea is actually one of quantities. We've seen how much Stormlight even a basic Soulcasting requires, and it feels unlikely to me that Rosharans will have that much innate Investiture. 

I suppose I didn't communicate it well, but my idea was that the soulcasters drain innate investiture as well as investiture from outside sources (spheres). I would agree that the soulcasters definitely seem to use more investiture than is drained from the users. I guess most of it is taken from the infused spheres and only a small portion is taken from the individual. Although, I must say, as of yet, I don't have any explanation for why the soulcasters can use some outside investiture, but still need some from the user themselves.

EDIT: Perhaps to start the process?

Also in WoK we see Jasnah use her 'soulcaster'. And, IIRC, when she used it, the gemstones inside would drain at the same time, and possibly even crack (although I don't have my WoK on me, so correct me if I'm wrong). That didn't seem to me like she sucked in the stormlight and then soulcasted. So maybe one can use outside stormlight to help power one's soulcasting in general, but some stormlight always has to come from the individual.