Squires

[entropicscholar he/him]

The Advent of Squires.

 

My Theory is simple: squires gain their power through loyalty to and admiration of existing Knights Radiant, Thus acquiring a bond to the Knight, rather than to an actual spren.

This ability is what separates the Nahel Bond, and Knights Radiant from Ancient Surgebinders.

 

Rules:

1. it requires a Knight Radiant in full status (all three oaths) to attract Squires. This is why Squires only started appearing after Kaladin said his 3^rd oath.

2. Squires have only one oath: the first oath, shared among all orders of Knights Radiant.

3. Squires are not bonded to a spren; they derive their ability to breath Stormlight from their bond to a Radiant. (Lopen would be bonded to Kaladin, etc)

4. Squires cannot utilize surges, but do gain enhanced healing, strength, etc. from holding stormlight. Anchiently, Squires likely used fabrials to mimic the surges they lacked.

 

 

Consequences:

1. The number of people able to utilize Stormlight grows exponentially, rather than logarithmically.

The number of people able to utilize stormlight increases drastically.

 

2. The existence of Squire allows an 'introductory phase' in which a person can get used to following the Radiant Oaths, or even transfer from one order to another, prior to any spren actually agreeing to bond them. This reduces the risk of a spren being killed by lack of faithfulness to oaths.

 

3. 'side effects' from the use of powerful Fabrials (such as soulcasters, and other fabrials which mimic the surges) are mitigated. {Note that soulcasters, over time, gain a very odd appearance, stone-like flesh, etc. one who could breath stormlight would have these effects healed long before they manifested fully.}

 

4. The 17^th shard may make use of Squires, allowing their world-hoppers to power their off-world abilities with stormlight.

(a separate theory in its own right, but worthy of consideration)

 

 

EDITED: to correct and clarify

Edited May 31, 2014 by entropicscholar

[Swimmingly he/him]

Note that there are actually five oaths per order, not three; Kaladin isn't a full KR yet. In addition, some orders use squires commonly, but others seem to be more individualistic - can you honestly imagine Renarin acquiring or finding at all useful a loyal following? I bet that many squires, as well, never actually become Knights, remaining in a subservient position. The exponential Stormlight users consequence is also capped by the number of willing bondspren - there are a finite amount of possible KR, and the actual number is probably far less, as I very much doubt that a majority of spren would be willing to risk themselves like that.

[Aether he/him]

Pardon me for assaulting your theory, but I consider Squires as a speciality of mine. See my "Effects of Squirearchy" Thread for a compilation of all known information about them.

.

As Swimmingly already pointed out, Kaladin is not a full Radiant at three Oaths, and he had Squires well before he got to his third one. There are likely more, but both Teft and Skar healed disproportionally fast respectively from a head and foot wound, and this has been confirmed by WoB to be early signs of Squiredom.

.

So when it comes to your rules:

 1. it requires a Knight Radiant in full status (all three oaths) to attract Squires. This is why Squires only started appearing after Kaladin said his 3^rd oath.

False. Kaladin is not a full Radiant, nor did his Squires appear only after his third Oath.

 2. Squires have only one oath: the first oath, shared among all orders of Knights Radiant.

Teft does know the first Oath and has discussed it with Kaladin (and Lopen, if I remember correctly), but it seems doubtful that he would have shared it with the rest of Bridge Four, as he is really secretive and protective about his past. He might have done so after the Battle of the Tower, but Bridgemen had already shown signs of Squiredom at this point. It is not as clear-cut as the your first rule, but I find it doubtful that the Squires would have actively adhere to any Oath at all.

 3. Squires are not bonded to a spren; they derive their ability to breath Stormlight from their bond to a Radiant. (Lopen would be bonded to Kaladin, etc)

True. Not much else to say about this, but we are about as certain as we can get that a Squire would not have a Spren at all).

 4. Squires cannot utilize surges, but can use fabrials to mimic them.

We have no firm evidence either way for the first part of this assertion. Some seem to believe that they might have lesser versions of the surges. Windrunners are hyper mobile and have the most Squires, and their excellent mobility would be rather wasted as shock troopers without having their supportive infantry being able to follow somewhat quickly. But then again, as they do not have a Nahel bond, they might not have any access to the Surges at all.

.

The second part of the assertion seems trivial. I don't think there is any limit to who can use fabrials. There might be some side-effects to using fabrials the wrong way (modern Soulcasters) or using them without Stormlight retention or whatever, but I find it somewhat trivial to say that Squires can use fabrials, as the current evidence suggests that everyone can.

.

And as to your consequences:

 1. The number of people able to utilize Stormlight grows exponentially, rather than logarithmically.

As Swimmingly pointed out, the different Orders had different numbers of Squires. Some had none at all, and the Windrunners had the largest number. We do not yet know why the numbers are different between Orders or how they are limited.

2. The existence of Squire allows an 'introductory phase' in which a person can get used to following the Radiant Oaths, or even transfer from one order to another, prior to any spren actually agreeing to bond them. This reduces the risk of a spren being killed by lack of faithfulness to oaths.

There is... some indication that some of this might be true. The female Radiant in the "Starfalls" vision of the Way of Kings offered Dalinar to train with them, but could not promise him Radiancy. Likely, he was being offered a place in one of the Orders as a Squire. 

 

3. 'side effects' from the use of powerful Fabrials (such as soulcasters, and other fabrials which mimic the surges) are mitigated. {Note that soulcasters, over time, gain a very odd appearance, stone-like flesh, etc. one who could breath stormlight would have these effects healed long before they manifested fully.}

We do not know that this is true. Personally, I do not think that it is a lack of Stormlight healing that give modern Soulcaster their crystalline appearance, but a fatal flaw in how they use them or in the Soulcasters themselves. I do not see any reason to find one answer more likely than the other.

 

4. The 17^th shard makes use of Squires, allowing their world-hoppers to power their off-world abilities with storm-light.

Where is your evidence for this? The Seventeenth Shard is an exclusive and secretive group that seem rather intent on non-intervention. And Radiants only reappeared recently; Squires even more so, so how on earth they would have recruited any escapes me. And besides, Squires seem rather dependent on a Radiant for their abilities, so they would likely be useless to them without their liege Knight.

[Pechvarry]

Many apologies, Aether, but you weren't kidding when you said "Assaulting."  I even unconsciously started reading your post in my Evil Church Inquisitor voice.

 

He is speculating, and he's not claiming false WoB.  Not every theory needs rigorous citations.

 

Btw, I believe Teft mentions the first Oath to most of Bridge 4 in tWoK.  Moash gets all religiously offended, iirc.  

[Aether he/him]

I might have gone at it a too fervently, but I was merely trying to show that the speculation is faulty at best, and parts of it is undoubtedly wrong.

 

Teft does talk about the Radiants with the others, but I didn't think that he mentioned the first Ideal specifically. Now that you point it out, I believe you're right. But as Moogle points out in this excellent Thread, the First Ideal is somewhat formless on its own. While the Squires (and the Radiants) might have tried to live by it, it does not seem to grant any particular powers or potential by itself. Indeed, it seems too open to interpretation to shape the morals of its adherents on its own, without further Ideals.

 

I did by the way forget to point out that I do in fact agree with entropicscholar on his first assertion:

My Theory is simple: squires gain their power through loyalty to and admiration of existing Knights Radiant, Thus acquiring a bond to the Knight, rather than to an actual spren.

This ability is what separates the Nahel Bond, and Knights Radiant from Ancient Surgebinders.

I do think it has to be a mutual respect and loyalty, though. Bridge Four gets their Squire abilities from their close relationships and friendships with Kaladin, and he is fiercely protective of them, just as they are of him.

[Moogle]

As Swimmingly already pointed out, Kaladin is not a full Radiant at three Oaths, and he had Squires well before he got to his third one. There are likely more, but both Teft and Skar healed disproportionally fast respectively from a head and foot wound, and this has been confirmed by WoB to be early signs of Squiredom.

 

I apologize, but I don't remember this WoB. Would you mind linking it? I would be surprised if Kaladin had any squires before speaking his third oath.

[entropicscholar he/him]

Note that there are actually five oaths per order, not three; Kaladin isn't a full KR yet. In addition, some orders use squires commonly, but others seem to be more individualistic - can you honestly imagine Renarin acquiring or finding at all useful a loyal following? I bet that many squires, as well, never actually become Knights, remaining in a subservient position. The exponential Stormlight users consequence is also capped by the number of willing bondspren - there are a finite amount of possible KR, and the actual number is probably far less, as I very much doubt that a majority of spren would be willing to risk themselves like that.

I was not aware of the 4th and 5th Oaths. This does answer some of the questions I still had about the Radiants (Shardplate, for example). would you mind posting your evidence on that, so that I can glean details?

 

Also, I completely agree with your assertion on Squires becoming Knights, and Knights Radiant being limited in numbers.

Knights Radiant are definately capped, and not all squires become knights.

[entropicscholar he/him]

Aether,

I really apreciate your input here (I prefer being right over mearly thinking that I am right, so you correcting me is very good). I'm still reading over "The Effects of Squirearchy", but I'll try to respond to a few of your thoughts, quickly.

 

As Swimmingly already pointed out, Kaladin is not a full Radiant at three Oaths, and he had Squires well before he got to his third one. There are likely more, but both Teft and Skar healed disproportionally fast respectively from a head and foot wound, and this has been confirmed by WoB to be early signs of Squiredom.

.

So when it comes to your rules:

 

1. it requires a Knight Radiant in full status (all three oaths) to attract Squires. This is why Squires only started appearing after Kaladin said his 3^rd oath.

False. Kaladin is not a full Radiant, nor did his Squires appear only after his third Oath.

 

Very good catch, and I certainly can't argue with it. I think it would be more accurate to claim "the power granted to aknight's squires is proportional to the number of oaths the Knight has stated"

Thereby, a knight having stated the 2nd oath can grant 'the innate ability of their order' (which is, in the case of windrunners, fighting skill), and a Knight having stated the 3rd Oath can allow at least some of his squires the ability to breath in stormlight.

 

 

 

 4. Squires cannot utilize surges, but can use fabrials to mimic them.

We have no firm evidence either way for the first part of this assertion. Some seem to believe that they might have lesser versions of the surges. Windrunners are hyper mobile and have the most Squires, and their excellent mobility would be rather wasted as shock troopers without having their supportive infantry being able to follow somewhat quickly. But then again, as they do not have a Nahel bond, they might not have any access to the Surges at all.

.

The second part of the assertion seems trivial. I don't think there is any limit to who can use fabrials. There might be some side-effects to using fabrials the wrong way (modern Soulcasters) or using them without Stormlight retention or whatever, but I find it somewhat trivial to say that Squires can use fabrials, as the current evidence suggests that everyone can.

Perhaps it would be more revealing if I claimed that because Squires cannot utilize surges (which, true, we don not have solid evidence of), the Surge-mimicing-Fabrials were invented specifically so that the Squires could learn and use the surges prior-to/without-ever becoming Knights.

 

 

 

 

3. 'side effects' from the use of powerful Fabrials (such as soulcasters, and other fabrials which mimic the surges) are mitigated. {Note that soulcasters, over time, gain a very odd appearance, stone-like flesh, etc. one who could breath stormlight would have these effects healed long before they manifested fully.}

We do not know that this is true. Personally, I do not think that it is a lack of Stormlight healing that give modern Soulcaster their crystalline appearance, but a fatal flaw in how they use them or in the Soulcasters themselves. I do not see any reason to find one answer more likely than the other.

 

I was assuming that these effects were because of some flaw in the fabrials themselves. though I may or may not be correct in that assumption: the idea that the side effects come from misuse of the fabrials appeals to me very much (Rosharan magic being primarily behavior and beleif based, in nature).

However, I stand by the statement that Squires would suffer lesser or no harm from such side effects.

1. stormlight healing should correct most problems, assuming that the injuries to be healed have not become a part of how the individual identifies themself. (Kaladin can't heal his forehead brand, so modern soulcaster--if they identify themselves and their station by their disfigurements--may have similar issues)

2. Squires, by virtue of their bond to a radiant, would be less likely to misuse the fabrials. (else they risk losing their status as squires)

 

 

 

My Theory is simple: squires gain their power through loyalty to and admiration of existing Knights Radiant, Thus acquiring a bond to the Knight, rather than to an actual spren.

This ability is what separates the Nahel Bond, and Knights Radiant from Ancient Surgebinders.

I do think it has to be a mutual respect and loyalty, though. Bridge Four gets their Squire abilities from their close relationships and friendships with Kaladin, and he is fiercely protective of them, just as they are of him.

Sorry for leaving that out, you're definately right that it needs to be mutual.

 

 

4. The 17^th shard makes use of Squires, allowing their world-hoppers to power their off-world abilities with storm-light.

Where is your evidence for this? The Seventeenth Shard is an exclusive and secretive group that seem rather intent on non-intervention. And Radiants only reappeared recently; Squires even more so, so how on earth they would have recruited any escapes me. And besides, Squires seem rather dependent on a Radiant for their abilities, so they would likely be useless to them without their liege Knight.

This claim is speculative, and comes primarily from 3 things:

1. We have known Worldhoppers sited on Roshar. (other than Hoid)

2. What we know about Worldhoppers using off-world powers suggests that they often need to use the local world's investature source, in order to power them.

See this page, for more details on that. Post # 5 is relevant.

3. The 17th shard would require a grand total of ONE knight radiant in full, or even partial status in order to grant the use of stormlight to their followers. This is among the easiest known methods of granting investature-based abilities to other people. (aka: it's just too convenient not to use.)

[Aether he/him]

I apologize, but I don't remember this WoB. Would you mind linking it? I would be surprised if Kaladin had any squires before speaking his third oath.

I misspoke. It is a WoP, but just as valid. Kurk cited it here.

This claim is speculative, and comes primarily from 3 things:

1. We have known Worldhoppers sited on Roshar. (other than Hoid)

2. What we know about Worldhoppers using off-world powers suggests that they often need to use the local world's investature source, in order to power them.

See this page, for more details on that. Post # 5 is relevant.

3. The 17th shard would require a grand total of ONE knight radiant in full, or even partial status in order to grant the use of stormlight to their followers. This is among the easiest known methods of granting investature-based abilities to other people. (aka: it's just too convenient not to use.)

Oh, I agree that a Knight Radiant would be highly useful, but I find it highly unlikely that they would have one amongt their numbers at this point in time.

 

I had not considered, by the way, the extreme usefulness of having a Radiant in the Seventeenth Shard, if they could harness and control his ability to "bond" Squires. Though I don't think they will have one for some time, good catch!

[Moogle]

I misspoke. It is a WoP, but just as valid. Kurk cited it here.

 

This WoP does not say that Kaladin had squires pre-Third Ideal. It says there were squires in book 1 we should look for. Am I missing something that confirms the squires were Kaladin's?

[Aether he/him]

This WoP does not say that Kaladin had squires pre-Third Ideal. It says there were squires in book 1 we should look for. Am I missing something that confirms the squires were Kaladin's?

By process of elimination. There are nothing in Dalinar's visions that could conceivably be interpreted as Squires, and the only (known) Radiants at that point is Shallan, Kaladin and Jasnah, of which only Kaladin have anyone he considers really close. Peter's wording imply heavily that there should be visible signs of it, and in Kaladin's case, he himself remarks that Teft's head-wound was remarkably less serious than he had originally assumed. Skar was rather badly hurt in his foot, but was walking around like it didn't matter by the end of the day (and the next day, in WoR, where Kaladin comments on his wound again).

 

Though they have not directly said that Teft and Skar were already showing early signs of Squiredom towards the end of WoK, I think it is close to as certain as we can.

[Moogle]

Though they have not directly said that Teft and Skar were already showing early signs of Squiredom towards the end of WoK, I think it is close to as certain as we can.

 

In regards to the foot thing, I recall this happening after the men gave Kaladin all their spheres. I find it unlikely Skar/Teft were around enough Stormlight for it to matter, and I find it equally unlikely that Teft (who had an eye out for it happening with Kaladin) wouldn't notice it happening to himself.

 

And why was Lopen unable to draw in any Stormlight? Skar and Teft were both healing from it, so Lopen should have been able to start healing his stump. As well, Stormlight healing is amazingly effective. As in, regrow arms and fix lethal wounds. The healing of Skar/Teft is just not... dramatic enough. Skar is still limping in WoR.

 

The process of elimination does not include:

• Prologue with Nalan. (Heralds may be able to create squires, and it's entirely possible Szeth "killed" or wounded someone who we can later find alive and in good health.)
• Dalinar and Gavilar both almost-glowing. Could be a bond to the Stormfather, could be squiredom to Elhokar. (Yes, I find this idea ridiculous.)
• Yalb, or Shallan's brothers may have been wounded more than we were lead to believe and healed. (Nan Balat's leg may imply he was Shallan's "squire", since it was wounded pretty darn badly in his fight with their father. After Shallan leaves, he loses his squiredom and it's left maybe 20% healed and so it still gives him a limp.)
• Adolin may be Dalinar's squire, as he begins to throw the Thrill off roughly around the mid-point of the first book when he wonders why it had taken him so long to come around to Dalinar's way of thinking and understand why uniforms were important.
• Elhokar himself may be a squire, given his cracked gemstones. (Though, we've been told via WoB that taking Stormlight from Plate would be very difficult. Still, this could mean it's possible, but the strain cracks gems.)
• Baxil/his associate being squires.

And this is just what I thought of with a few minutes. I'd need to comb the book very thoroughly.

 

And of course: Peter is a huge troll, and saw many early drafts of the book. He may be thinking of something that was cut from the book due to pacing.

 

Overall, I think Skar/Teft are the best candidates currently, but I am very uncertain.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether he/him]

Lopen only gained the ability to consciously draw on Stormlight at the end of WoR. It is likely that Kaladin had been drawing upon it unwittingly for almost a year by the time he learned to do it willingly. Teft and Skar (and Lopen and likely others) were likely doing the same, breathing in only very small amounts of Stormlight, giving them an edge, but not a obviously miraculous one. As to how Teft could have missed the signs, he was oblivious to the existence of Squires in the first place, and he did not really start to suspect Kaladin before he survived a Highstorm. Neither Teft nor Skar had done so at this point.

 

You do give some good alternative candidates, but I think most of them are stretching plausibility:

• Nalan: the WoP implies visible signs. There is nothing, as far as I can gleam, that suggests anyone of Szeth's victims in the prologue have anything at all boosting them. And by the way, I think there is reason to assume that Honourblades would not grant the ability to bond Squires.
• If Gavilar was a proto-Radiant, he might have had Squires, but there is nothing that suggests this in the prologue. Elhokar is a more likely candidate, but no. Just no. 
• I myself think that Yalb is indeed a Squire by WoR (or will be when he return to Shallan's herd), but he likely was not there yet in WoK. Indeed, I do not think Shallan was even capable of forming Squire bonds in WoK, as she only "rebonds" Pattern on her way to the Shattered Plains. And she would not immediately have left to chase after Jasnah, so if Balat had access to Stormlight healing (which I do not think he had, as the bond with Pattern was more or less innert at this point), his leg would probably have been in a better shape than it is.
• Adolin is a likely candidate for Squiredom if Bondsmiths have any at all, but I don't think the Thrill was failing him before his duels in WoR, though I will have to look this up.
• Something is going on with Elhokar, but I do not think it is Squiredom.
• Again, no visible clues that Baxil and his comrade, and it is highly unlikely that his mistress would have her Honourblade, and we have WoB that states that the Heralds would not have access to Surgebinding without it.

Skar and Teft are, in my (far from) opinion, the best candidates by far, And I would argue that they are indeed the only ones.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Aether

[entropicscholar he/him]

What orders do you think would be most likely to attract very many or very few squires?

 

We know already that Windrunners have the most, and we seem to beleive that they also have the strongest bond to their squires.

We also know that Windrunners are associated with the attributes of protection, leading, piousness, and guiding.

 

Wouldn't the Orders that share at least some of these attributes (Skybreakers and Bondsmiths) be most likely to acquire more squires as well?

 

Looking at the complete list of KR attributes, my guess would be that the Stonewardens (Just, Confident, Brave, Obedient) would be least likely to attract alot of followers.

[Aether he/him]

Actually, given that Taln is the Herald of War, I think he might have one of the higher number of Squires. Bondsmiths, on the other hand, would have few if any, I think. Both because of the rather unusual nature of their Nahel bond, and because their first Ideal is aimed at everyone. They are the Knights that unite whole peoples, and I don't think they would develop particularly strong bonds to anyone in particular (other than what normal humans do).

 

Lightweavers would likely have Squires, but I am conflicted on whether it would be on the higher or lower end. I feel like the Order would benefit from a small number of highly specialized Squires, but Shallan seem to be gathering an alarmingly grand number of Squire candidates. Edgedancers would likely have many Squires, for the same reasons that Windrunners have.

 

Truthwatchers, on the other hand, will likely have none, or at least very, very few, given the secrecy and social ineptness associated with the Order. And if Jasnah is representative for the rest of her Order, I think the same goes for the Elsecallers, though probably more than the Truthwatchers if they have at all.

 

I am unsure of how the Skybreakers would place. I find it likely that they will have squires, but I do not know if they would be on the higher or lower end. They could benefit both from a high number of "constables", though maybe even more so from a small number of highly specialized ones.

 

We know too little about the remaining Orders.

[entropicscholar he/him]

Is Renarin our only example of a Truthwatcher? what about Ym?

[Moogle]

Is Renarin our only example of a Truthwatcher? what about Ym?

 

Ym was a Truthwatcher. I don't think he seemed the type to get squires, though.