Mistborns vs Sand Mages

[calamity]

I know. But a coinshot can push a coin shot away, but can only push away a bullet if he is expecting it and prepares to push before the shot. 

A bullet packs way more punch than coin. But imagine a mistborn dodging it only for the sand to turn a foot away from him towards him, he cant keep dodging. The sand is too flexible and versatile while being as fast as an arrow.I said Vin vs Kenton. But even if regular Mastrell, imagine 25  ribbons telekinetic-ally rushing towards you average speed, try dodging it. Its not about dodging, but avoiding, which is impossible, unless you have atium.  

[Pathfinder]

I know. But a coinshot can push a coin shot away, but can only push away a bullet if he is expecting it and prepares to push before the shot. 

A bullet packs way more punch than coin. But imagine a mistborn dodging it only for the sand to turn a foot away from him towards him, he cant keep dodging. The sand is too flexible and versatile while being as fast as an arrow.I said Vin vs Kenton. But even if regular Mastrell, imagine 25  ribbons telekinetic-ally rushing towards you average speed, try dodging it. Its not about dodging, but avoiding, which is impossible, unless you have atium.  

That is only because by burning steel or iron, they see it is coming long before it gets there, and does a general push to alter its course. Again, you are assuming the sandmaster is just standing there with no coins shooting at him during this as well as being pulled back to hit him from behind after being shot. And again the OP said generic mistborn, and generic sand master, which means a mistborn would also have chromium, duralumin and bendalloy. Also while this sandmaster is potentially "blocking" these attacks with its very visible sand stream, he or she is also blocking their own view of the battle limiting their response time. If you raise your own arm to block a punch, you are blocking your view of the follow up punch to your side. Mistborn have no such restriction. The more ribbons a mastrell uses the faster they dehydrate. 25 would cause the mastrell to pass out rather quickly. The whole reason for the dehydration was so Sanderson could balance the magic system in a location where their power source is omnipresent. They are surrounded by sand, and the sun continually recharges it. If not for the dehydration, the sandmaster would never run out. So they dehydrate, and in this example is given only a gourd without the dayside sun to recharge it (not to mention the combat would be over by the time the sand is recharged). 

 

Your only argument in favor of the sand master is this seemingly invulnerable, faster than light, stream of sand (which is not accurate with what we seen in the story) and you disregard every other ability a mistborn has. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[calamity]

A sandmaster can last full power for about ten minutes if i remember correctly. Thats more than enough time. I did not say faster than light.

My point is that while one can and has dogded coins and arrows, noone has ever dodged a sand attack. I understand ability wise, they are in different classes, but I rest my case with my last Statement. You Can Not Dodge Sand. 

 

Either Way, I will be away until tomorrow night. SO have a while to prepare your opinion on the matter before I return. 

Just imagine this scenario, regular mastrell with enough sand for 15 streams attacks a mistborn. How will the mistborn get away when the sand is faster than him? And keep away for enough time to successfully attack. 

 

Remember, I wont respond after this until tomorrow night.

[Pathfinder]

That is for overmastery. Doesn't take long before your eyes begin to dry out, which hampers vision.

My problem with your point is you are assuming the combatants are just standing there sending attacks at each other. Every time we have seen any form of mistborn combat, it has opened up with tossing out coins in a general spray while running and or with a leap. If we are talking Kenton, his one stream would be busy blocking the coins for Vin to close in and slice his throat. If we are talking a general mastrell, they would be hampering their own vision to block and attack with the streams, of which the mistborn could dodge and touch burning chromium to negate the streams. That means the sand turns black and is no longer usable. The mastrell would then have a depreciating supply. And btw yes you can dodge sand. I have provided a quote below

I converted the document White Sand to a kindle reading document, so the pages I reference may not match up to yours, but a word search should locate it if there is an issue

White Sand page 425
The man dodged backward, swiping his hand at the steam of sand at the stream of sand above him. The sand fell dead, the pot dropped to the ground.

So a normal person was able to dodge a sand stream and touch it without harm enough for the armor they wore to kill the sand stream. Much like a pewter burning mistborn could do easily, with a touch and burn of chromium

Kenton is also an anomaly in his training. His father was derisive of his training with the soldiers, yet it was this training that kept him alive most of the book combined with his sand magic. A standard sand mage would not have the physical training to dodge the coins and a duralumin pushed coin is not going to be stopped.

Actually as I reference the story (I definitely need to reread it to get it fresh in my mind), the mistborn does not even have to reach out to touch the streams. The moment the stream touches the mistborn burning chromium, the stream will fall dead without harming the mistborn. Same happens when a Kershtian is hit by a sand stream. Apparently momentum and force mean nothing when the investiture is drained otherwise the Kershtian would have been thrown backwards regardless. The quote is shown below:

White Sand page 327
The arrow fired just before Kenton's sand arrived, but it went wide, snapping into the wood of Praxton's desk. the ribbon of sand hit the Kershtian's chest at a speed impossible of the most powerful of zinkall. The sand turned black and sprayed off the Kershtian's armor like water splashing against a stone wall.

Also keep in mind that a sand master needs to summon the sand. The scene I quote below shows an opponent able to throw a spear and then close the distance to fight before Kenton can summon sand to aid him (not in attack but in defense as the spear was immune to sand mastery)

White Sand page 380
Kenton ducked to the side, dodging the spear as it shot through the air. He knew, somehow, that the spear would be covered with a terken coating. Kenton called his sand to life anyway, then reached down for his sword. The assassin moved quickly after his throw, however, tackling Kenton a second later. Kenton's sword spun from his unprepared fingers, tumbling down the side of the dune. Kenton kicked free of the Kershtian as the man pulled a carapace knife free from a sheath on his leg. Kenton rose to his feet, heart pounding. Gathering his sand around himself, he jumped, soaring high into the air. The Kershtian scrambled forward and slapped his hand through Kenton's stream of sand. Immediately, the sand the man touched turned stale and black, destroying the foundation of Kenton's jump.

So a sand master must summon the sand and then use it and there is a delay enough that someone could and as shown in fact did close the distance before the sand could be brought to bear, regardless the intended use. He had to kick the foe away to give him enough time and space to jump away with the sand. This is further demonstrated in the next quote:

White Sand page 380
As long as the man grappled Kenton, he could keep control of the battle, and Kenton's sand mastery would be practically useless

So the sand is although versatile, is powerful in view of what it opposed on that world. A mistborn has a host of abilities that could counter a sand master. These attacks of sand were at all normal people, none with "magically" increased speed, strength, durability, and reaction time

 

on weekends I am MIA, so you will not get a response to your response till probably monday. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

Pathfinder I have to admit that I forgot to considerate the Cromium (an error born by Mistborn Era 1 memories) and in the end, only a indirect use of Sand Mastery may hurt a mistborn.

I was thinking, but may Nicrosil have some effect ? If yes, it may drain a water reserve fast.

[Pathfinder]

Pathfinder I have to admit that I forgot to considerate the Cromium (an error born by Mistborn Era 1 memories) and in the end, only a indirect use of Sand Mastery may hurt a mistborn.

I was thinking, but may Nicrosil have some effect ? If yes, it may drain a water reserve fast.

Good point, though potentially dangerous as it could result in an explosion of sand in all directions, I think it would most certainly result in all that is left of the sand master is a desiccated husk. 

[Yata he/him]

Good point, though potentially dangerous as it could result in an explosion of sand in all directions, I think it would most certainly result in all that is left of the sand master is a desiccated husk. 

yeah surelly is quite useless because once you may touch a Sand master, you may cut it not use a potentially dangerous ability.

 

I was just curious about Cromium and Nicrosil in the different Magic Systems

[Pathfinder]

yeah surelly is quite useless because once you may touch a Sand master, you may cut it not use a potentially dangerous ability.

 

I was just curious about Cromium and Nicrosil in the different Magic Systems

True true. Makes you wonder what would have happened if the woman that touches Nazh's "spirit gun" was a nicroburst instead of a leecher lol. 

[Yata he/him]

True true. Makes you wonder what would have happened if the woman that touches Nazh's "spirit gun" was a nicroburst instead of a leecher lol. 

O.O I don't remember this scene (if it is Spoiler, send me a PM)

[Pathfinder]

O.O I don't remember this scene (if it is Spoiler, send me a PM)

Well I do not believe it is a spoiler because it seems well known but I will put it in just in case, because i didn't realize if it was or not. It is the broadsheet included in Bands of Mourning

 

there is an article in the fictional newspaper that tells the tale of a woman wrestling with a mysterious man over her ancestor's map. A lot of sharder's through the description, the way the character talks, and the gun he uses is Nazh. The woman is a leecher that touches the gun that fires seemingly spirits that rot away metal. When she touches it, it stops working for a time.

 

reflecting on the fact that it is from bands of mourning, perhaps I should not have been as cavalier mentioning it. I apologize. I saw it mentioned a lot on the forums and assumed. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

Oh thanks... I skipped the major of broadsheet because I find hard to read and decript on Ebook

[Pathfinder]

http://brandonsanderson.com/books/mistborn/the-bands-of-mourning/the-bands-of-mourning-maps-illustrations/

 

enjoy 

(you can save the image and zoom in)

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[calamity]

Okay... you made your point pathfinder. Although how someone can dodge something far faster than a zinkall/arrow is beyond me. For a being such as in words of radiance to do so is one thing (telenair or however you pronounce it), but for a regular person, it seems impossible. And I don't know if a mistborn would know to burn chromium, but again, I admit that his abilities can easily counter the mages.

I need to read white sand again.

Just a small closer to my opinion, if the sand is impossible faster than a zinkall, then how fast is it? And would it be conceivable to believe that just anyone could dodge it? However these are questions for Brandon to reveal, not ourselves. But I will give way in this discussion until i can find a better reference to the sand streams properties and abilities. I just see the destructive capabilities far surpassing even an atium mistborns abilities, as we see Lord mastrell, while poisoned, kill hundereds of people in seconds in the ceremony. I just think that this destuctive power could prove troublesome for a mistborn. But think what you will. I will still be around for more pointers though if you want to speak about that.

[Master Elodin]

Okay... you made your point pathfinder. Although how someone can dodge something far faster than a zinkall/arrow is beyond me. For a being such as in words of radiance to do so is one thing (telenair or however you pronounce it), but for a regular person, it seems impossible. And I don't know if a mistborn would know to burn chromium, but again, I admit that his abilities can easily counter the mages.

I need to read white sand again.

Just a small closer to my opinion, if the sand is impossible faster than a zinkall, then how fast is it? And would it be conceivable to believe that just anyone could dodge it? However these are questions for Brandon to reveal, not ourselves. But I will give way in this discussion until i can find a better reference to the sand streams properties and abilities. I just see the destructive capabilities far surpassing even an atium mistborns abilities, as we see Lord mastrell, while poisoned, kill hundereds of people in seconds in the ceremony. I just think that this destuctive power could prove troublesome for a mistborn. But think what you will. I will still be around for more pointers though if you want to speak about that.

There's no need to be rude. Otherwise, however, only person was capable of such mass destruction and that was the Lord Mastrell. This is just as much an art of precision.

[Yata he/him]

As fas as we saw with Kenton...an average Sand Master that uses multiple ribbons are quite slow, if Kenton with his own single ribbon is capable of stop all the Drell (i am unsure of the name)'s ribbons.

And the Kenton's ribbon can't have "unlimited speed" because he guides it and in the end the ribbon can't go faster than Kenton perception.

 

Therefore probably when a Mastrell kills is more a matter of no escape route than uncapable of dodge

[calamity]

I know, thats what i said earlier, that its not about dodging but rather continuously avoiding.

 

Master  Elodin, I dont know where i came off as rude, but trust me i had no intention of rudeness. I was stating that Pathfinder made his point and convinced me, which is very hard since i am a very stubborn and proud person by nature. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.  

[Master Elodin]

I know, thats what i said earlier, that its not about dodging but rather continuously avoiding.

 

Master  Elodin, I dont know where i came off as rude, but trust me i had no intention of rudeness. I was stating that Pathfinder made his point and convinced me, which is very hard since i am a very stubborn and proud person by nature. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Oh, I completely misunderstood you. I am very sorry, I was in a rather bad mood that day. In other news, I wonder if a Mistborn could burn Sand.

[calamity]

What do you mean? Why would he be able to?

[Yata he/him]

What do you mean? Why would he be able to?

Probably he thought something like "A mistborn may burn everything (in the most case with terrible effects to himself) and maybe if he burns the Invested Sand...Something happen to him (positive or negative)"

 

In the end, if the White Sand are a metallic nature (but I don't think) it's possible that he may use to fuel some Allomantic effect.

[calamity]

Yeah, but i thought that one: You cant burn other planet metals since they weren't made by preservation. And two: That the metals aren't invested at all, but rather they are a catalyst. Is my knowledge outdated?

[Master Elodin]

Probably he thought something like "A mistborn may burn everything (in the most case with terrible effects to himself) and maybe if he burns the Invested Sand...Something happen to him (positive or negative)"

 

In the end, if the White Sand are a metallic nature (but I don't think) it's possible that he may use to fuel some Allomantic effect.

No, it's been heavily theorized that, for example, gemstone flakes can be burned on Roshar. This would correspond to Sand on Taldian.

[Yata he/him]

wait wait wait we made a bit of confusion.

Yeah, but i thought that one: You cant burn other planet metals since they weren't made by preservation. And two: That the metals aren't invested at all, but rather they are a catalyst. Is my knowledge outdated?

any Metallic Art may use Metals of every origin. Mundane, made by Shards, made by Adonalsium, made by magic user (if you Soulcast flesh to iron, then you may use that iron as metalmind withou any problem).
Like you said the metal is just a gateway for preservation power, but the metal isn't invested in any special case (with the exception of God Metal because that metals are source of power themself and didn't connect you with Preservation to drain investiture).

 

No, it's been heavily theorized that, for example, gemstone flakes can be burned on Roshar. This would correspond to Sand on Taldian.

Yeah is's been thorized but in the end, I don't think a Mistborn may obtain more than a painful death. The god metals works because they are compatible with Metallic Arts' focus and they are already quite a Metallic Arts' hacking.

To me for example the famous idea of a "gemstone Spike on Roshar" is quite impossible for our knowledge of the Cosmere's Magic... but of course I may be wrong

[Pathfinder]

Okay... you made your point pathfinder. Although how someone can dodge something far faster than a zinkall/arrow is beyond me. For a being such as in words of radiance to do so is one thing (telenair or however you pronounce it), but for a regular person, it seems impossible. And I don't know if a mistborn would know to burn chromium, but again, I admit that his abilities can easily counter the mages.

I need to read white sand again.

Just a small closer to my opinion, if the sand is impossible faster than a zinkall, then how fast is it? And would it be conceivable to believe that just anyone could dodge it? However these are questions for Brandon to reveal, not ourselves. But I will give way in this discussion until i can find a better reference to the sand streams properties and abilities. I just see the destructive capabilities far surpassing even an atium mistborns abilities, as we see Lord mastrell, while poisoned, kill hundereds of people in seconds in the ceremony. I just think that this destuctive power could prove troublesome for a mistborn. But think what you will. I will still be around for more pointers though if you want to speak about that.

No worries and I understand where you come from and appreciate your concession. Which is why I want to make clear this response to this post is not to beat a dead horse, but to continue the discussion (not that you would think that, but I always like to try and cover my bases). Thing is although a zinkall and arrow move fast enough to penetrate the human body, the examples I gave were recurve (which make noise and poor for stealth) and compound (which use a levering system that is probably more technologically advanced than they had) bows. Zinkalls are pressurized dart throwers. They aren't meant for great distances. They seem to be more for concealment and of a quick shot and then fight up close type. So they too probably don't have that much speed/stopping power.

 

I think where the power of the sandmages come in and why they are so feared is you are literally within their power everywhere. You are literally standing on their power everyday you step out of your home. Where as a normal person wanting to kill from afar needs to either have a pressurized zinkall primed and have to aim, or a bow user needs to draw and again aim, for a sandmaster he just has to think and it happens. They are natural extensions. Surround a sandmaster with 10 people with swords, and in one thought all 10 will drop dead with holes in their foreheads. So for that world, with that tech level, sandmasters are horrifying. It is when it is compared to another world it becomes problematic. Brandon has said a fully oath spoken windrunner would beat a mistborn one on one in a straight fight, but otherwise the mistborn would assassinate the windrunner. 

 

Atium is tricky as it not only allows you to see the foe's actions before they take them, but provides the cognitive ability to sparse through the information, and the reflexes to react to it. Coupled with pewter for the speed would allow a mistborn to avoid them. The counter would be if the room was filled with sand, and theoretically if there was no range on the sandmasters summoning the streams. So for instance summoning streams in the entire room, so there is no where that the mistborn could go to avoid them. However to my recollection that is not how it works. All the streams seem to come from close proximity to the sandmaster though I would need to refer to the book to confirm this. Either way though the example given provided the sand master with a gourd of sand, so that would still not apply in this case.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Irkutsk he/him]

So here's my thoughts:

A mistborn burning Chromium is essentially entirely immune to direct attacks from sand mastery. They are basically Terken. So a mistborn with all 16 metals, I think easily beats a sandmaster by virtue of being directly unharmable, combined with a wide variety of abilities to attack and kill the sandmaster. This doesn't take into account atium, which of course would make the mistborn win. Heck, even having bendalloy or duralumin, without chromium probably still makes the mistborn win. 

Now, if we talk era 1 mistborn, with eight metals, things get a little more interesting. I think a mastrell (or Kenton) beats the mistborn, because the mistborn simply has no way to defend against a telekinetic, non-metallic projectile. A lower sandmaster probably loses, because the mistborn will speedblitz them with coins and pewter-reflexes before they can reach the mistborn with their sand.

[Steelheart]

Honestly, it would simply come down to how skilled the Mistborn is in the Emotional Metals and if he/she has Dulramin (remember what Vin did to Straff?)

I believe a lot of people severely underestimate how effective Brass and Zinc can be...